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How to READ properly? Question about lines

innertruth

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Hi guys!

My question is how to read your casting.
For example questions is : WHY so and so happen with me in this way?

I get several changing lines.

Do I read their characteristics as something that is NOT there - because they are changing into something else? Or I read them as Pointing out at the actual cause of things?

So do i answer to my question by looking at these lines which say this that and that.
OR I look at these lines as something that IS NOT THERE - because they change...

OR I look at these lines as some sort of guidance or advice - addressing my problem - for example as if Yi is saying : DO THIS, DO THAT AND THAT.

I am totally confused....
 

Trojina

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Me too, I'm not sure I know what you mean

I get several changing lines.

A common occurence

Do I read their characteristics as something that is NOT there - because they are changing into something else?

You would read changing lines as things that are relevant to your reading. They are part of your reading, they make the reading so I'm not sure how they can not be there :confused:

Or I read them as Pointing out at the actual cause of things?

If you ask about a cause of something then they may point out the cause, it depends how directly you are being answered. I don't think 'why' questions are the most useful, at least not easy to interpret.

So do i answer to my question by looking at these lines which say this that and that.
OR I look at these lines as something that IS NOT THERE - because they change...

If you got the lines then they are there

OR I look at these lines as some sort of guidance or advice - addressing my problem - for example as if Yi is saying : DO THIS, DO THAT AND THAT.

Yes, guidance, advice sometimes just a description of your situation. Not an instruction really unless you ask for one then you might get one but generally Yi is not ever in place of your own decision.


Have you explored this 'Learn' section ?

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/consult/

Also there is now an I Ching foundations course written by Hilary which is now available in Change Circle which we are currently working through.

However maybe I have misunderstood your questions.

I'm wondering if the reason you don't know what change lines really are is because you have only ever used the online casting tool to consult with ? If so it is better to learn the 3 coin method then at least you are 'connected' with how your answer is put together.
 

Sixth Relative

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My question is how to read your casting.

Hi

Since the oldest records on interpretation, as the Zuo Zhuan (before common era) there have been and stil are different and sometimes contradictory schools and methods to read your casting. This can be confusing, indeed. This even can make you throw the Yijing away for good.

In regards to changing lines, some people read them all and some people has a rule to decide which one to read. For those who doesn't read all the changing lines, there are different schools and rules on which one to read.

Then you have some people undertanding the case for different changin line as different alternatives of actions; others understand different changing line as in secuencial order; some peoplo doens't use the changing lines at all and only read the hexagrams as a whole.

Confusing? indeed. What to do?. In my case, have an open mind, try every school or method and decide if it works for me or not.
 

rosada

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I think it would help if you would give us a more explicit example.
 
S

svenrus

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Those who have critizised the NanJing-rule haven't given a proper alternative as far as I'm concerned, yet...

Those who formed the NanJing-rule did at least a serious attempt to meet this conflict.

I have taken the NanJing-rules as if they were The method thereby to examinine those for several years and must confess that it seems that only by meeting with ONE changing line or an Unchanging hexagram it gave sense...

I do NOT believe that anyone with authority can claim to know which method the ancient who invented the Oracle used.

The best alternative is the method given by HeyLise, I think.
 
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svenrus

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..... on page ten (99) in this pdf-document Wei Tat gives an example of a reading and he uses a method nearly similar to that used by Alfred Huang but unfortunately A.H. doesn't gives us the source for that method......

Joel Birocco on http://www.biroco.com/yijing/survey.htm gives a link to the book in "An Exposition of the I-Ching or Book of Changes: Wei Tat" the fifht'-last survey
 
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innertruth

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Hey guys, what you said Trojina , I have thought about.

Yesterday I just sit with my reading. carefully reading through different
Interpretation comments from Lise, James deCorne etc...
First didnt make sense, but after some time it appeared
Like you said, Trojina. Lines were giving answer to my situation by sort of describing how thing are really.
 

innertruth

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I am usually throwing coins, so my energy is there

It was equally important to read changed lines in the second hexagram. They seemed to supplement or give direct advice
with regard to reading.
 

innertruth

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It was also helpful to read several authors to get the essence of each line..it all eventually made sense..

It's just ancient Chinese symbolism sometimes gets in the
way of true understanding...

And yes, what I've noticed the whole image and meaning of
these two hexagrams are like two guides which realm
is answer coming from...it is so accurate...i was amazed..

Yi is like unwrapping the reality as it is...
So for just an example, if you ask why i always find myself in such situations, Yi can point by hexagrams and lines what is
Really going on...
It really points...
 

innertruth

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Oh!! Yes Trojina!!
Yi doesnt make you do anything, never, it only shows how thing are really existing...it is up to you to make a decision of course..seems like it..
 

Trojina

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I am usually throwing coins, so my energy is there

It was equally important to read changed lines in the second hexagram. They seemed to supplement or give direct advice
with regard to reading.

:confused: innertruth there are no changed lines in the second hexagram. The change lines in the first hexagram PRODUCE THE SECOND HEXAGRAM so no you do not need to consider changed lines in the second hexagram because there aren't any ! You are worrying me that you do not know how to cast a hexagram. That is why I referred you to the 'Learn' section. How to interpret change lines is up to the individual but first you do need to know what change lines actually are and see how they make the relating hexagram. I'm not sure that you are clear about this fundamental thing.

Not intending to sound patronising BTW as sometimes people post here for years and don't know what a changing line actually is. I think that is because they just use the online casting tool and don't really connect with how a hexagram is constructed.
 
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cjgait

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In the Zhou Yi Dao school of interpreting texts we use only one line. We in fact go beyond the Nan Jing method and only use one text no matter what the result is, not reading two judgement texts as sometimes occurs with Nanjing.

I used multiline interpreting for many years and always found it lacking. What use is an answer that tells you: Go ahead. Stop. Move back?

Historic precedence from the Zuo Zhuan and Guo Yu show that something like the Nanjing method was used to choose a text and that was a great discovery for me. Now I get one clear text in answer. Others get more out of multi-line readings, and that is fine. As long as you are consistent in your method and it benefits you it is a good method.

http://www.russellcottrell.com/virtualyarrowstalks/nanjingirules.htm
 

innertruth

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Trojina,
I am sorry I meant we are reading moving lines right but also those in the second hexagram that correspond to these moving lines (in the 1st hexagram) - to get a clear picture right?

Like you and others were saying when it's only one moving line - it is enough to read it only. But when there are several - you look both to what has changed and what has been produced.
That is what I meant :)
 

innertruth

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I meant if for example you get 1.2.3 (two lines changing in hexagram 1) - you need to look at the produced hexagram - same lines - 2 and 3 as well.????
 

Trojina

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Trojina,
I am sorry I meant we are reading moving lines right but also those in the second hexagram that correspond to these moving lines (in the 1st hexagram) - to get a clear picture right?

No innertruth where did you get that idea from ? If you have 2 changing lines in the primary hexagram those are the ones relevant to you. You do not need to look at the corresponding lines in the second hexagram.

Like you and others were saying when it's only one moving line - it is enough to read it only. But when there are several - you look both to what has changed and what has been produced.
That is what I meant :)

:confused: not sure I follow. Even if just one line changes you take into account the second hexagram but personally I would focus quite a lot on the line with only one moving line. If you had 3 moving lines you would consider those 3 lines but do not look at the corresponding lines in the second hexagram as part of your reading.

I meant if for example you get 1.2.3 (two lines changing in hexagram 1) - you need to look at the produced hexagram - same lines - 2 and 3 as well.????

No. If you got 1.2.3>25 that is hexagram 1 with lines 2 and 3 changing to 25 you would look at hexagram one, lines 2 and 3, which you cast and also the second/relating hexagram of 25. No need to look at corresponding lines in 25 unless out of interest.

You may be confused that some use 'fan yao' as part of the reading. The fan yao being the corresponding line in the second hexagram. But this is not necessary nor advisable if you are still struggling with the basics. It's been said a million times also the fan yao is not the reading. All it is useful for is for perhaps throwing light on what the line you received isn't. People see it different ways of course but it is not part of your answer, but a factor you might want to use to help you think about your answer.

You can see from this thread there are numerous ways to handle interpreting change lines but I don't think any of them involve divining from the corresponding lines in the second hexagram. If you look at the fan yao for each line anyway you would get a different hexagram. So the fan yao of 1.2 is 13.2, but the fan yao of 1.3 is 10.3...see what I mean. If you use the fan yao you can only do it one line at a time.


But personally at the stage you are at I would advise you to completely forget any lines in the second hexagram.

I urge you to go to the 'Learn' section to get a clear idea here otherwise you will really be floundering. The 'learn' section is written by Hilary and is for text based interpretation which is what is used most often here.
 

Sixth Relative

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Hi Trojina

You can see from this thread there are numerous ways to handle interpreting change lines but I don't think any of them involve divining from the corresponding lines in the second hexagram.


Well, what you think is wrong.

a) I made explicit reference to the Zuo Zhuan. In that work, under the 15th Year of Duke Xi's reign (644 B.C.) you can find one record where an individual line from the changed hexagram is quoted:
... when Duke Xian of Jin was divining by the milfoil about the marriage of his eldest daughter to [the earl of] Qin, he got the diagram Gui Mei, and then the diagram Kui. The historiographer Su interpreted the indication and said, "It is unlucky. The sentence [on the top line in Gui Mei] is, ‘The man cuts up his sheep, and there is no blood; the girl presents her basket, but there is no gift in it.’ The neighbor on the west reproaches us for our words which cannot be made good. And Gui Mei’s becoming Kui is the same as our getting no help [from the union]. For the symbol Zhen [top trigram of Gui Mei] to become Luo [top trigram of Kui] is the same as for Luo to become Zhen; we have thunder and fire: the Ying defeating the Ji. The connection between the carriage and its axle is broken; the fire burns the flags: our military expeditions will be without advantage; there is defeat in Cong Qiu. In Gui Mei’s becoming Kui we have a solitary, and an enemy against whom the bow is bent. Then the nephew follows his aunt. In six years he makes his escape; he flies back ["gui"] to his state, abandoning his wife. Next year he dies in the wild of Gao Liang.

This is 54zhi38 (or 54>38 or 54.1.6>38 in the most used notations here). The phrase "we have a solitary, and an enemy against whom the bow is bent" comes from line 6 of hexagram 38: Nine at the top means: Isolated through opposition, one sees one's companion as a pig covered with dirt, as a wagon full of devils. First one draws a bow against him, then one lays the bow aside. He is not a robber; he will woo at the right time. As one goes, rain falls; then good fortune comes.


b) One of the most used set of rules for multiple changing lines is the reconstruction of yarrow divination made by Zhu Xi. In that method, when you have 5 changing lines, you use the line in the changed hexagram corresponding to the place of the non-changing line in the original hexagram. For instance, if you get an hexagram with changing lines 1, 2. 4, 5 and 6, then you only read the third line in the changed hexagram. And if you get 4 changing lines, you use the line in the changing hexagram correspoding with the place of the lowest non-changing line in the original hexagram. For instance, if you get an hexagram with changing lines 1, 2. 4, and 6, then you only read the third line in the changed hexagram.

c) There are several other methods to deal with multiple changing lines using the text for indivdual lines in the changed hexagram, as the Nan Jing method (named in this thread), the Zhou Yi Dao (also named in this thread), the reconstruction of yarrow divination by Shih-Chuan Chen; the "Bian Gua" method by Joseph Cruz; etc.

And all of this is only for text-based methods.

NOTE: On a personal note, when using text-based methods, I don't use individual lines for the changed hexagram. My technical reason is that the full text for any yaoci (individual line) is "6 in the first...." or "9 in the top..." "6 in the second...", etc. When the 6 in the original hexagram is changed to the changed hexagram, it becomes a 7 not a 9; and when a 9 in the original hexagram is changed to the changed hexagram, it becomes an 8 not a 6; therefore, the text for the 6 or the 9 in the changed hexagram doesn't fit for a 7 or an 8 in the changed hexagram. But well, that's just me.

Best wishes
 

Trojina

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To me it's obvious innertruth is a beginner here who is trying to understand the basics of text based interpretation. In some obscure method I never saw maybe there is used the change lines of the second hexagram for interpretation. I have never actually seen anyone here do it and I've been here a while.

All I am interested in doing here is helping innertruth with basic I Ching divination. I'm not at all interested in arguing or discussing with you, I just wanted to help innertruth. I'm not very interested in your post so won't be reading it but no doubt others will.


I think it's obvious innertruth is just asking for basic simple help which is all I am on this thread for. If you want to discuss other things than what innertruth asked do go ahead but with other members who are interested, not me.
 

hilary

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Hi Innertruth,

You're getting two different kinds of advice here: the essentials for straightforward, traditional readings with the I Ching as a whole (from Trojina) and exploration of a variety of more complex methods and sources (from Sixth Relative).

I'd recommend starting with the simple approach that Trojina describes: read your primary hexagram; read the text of each line that's changing in your primary hexagram; read just the Judgement/Oracle and Image in your second, changed hexagram (but no line texts). Get familiar with this; you can always explore more complex options later.
 

Trojina

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you can always explore more complex options later.

You can, but bear in mind 'more complex' does not necessarily equate to better interpretative skills with your readings. Therefore it's better to 'expand your range' gradually IMO otherwise it can get overwhelming and you might even mistakenly come to think you cannot do readings for yourself without learning lots of complicated 'rules' and so on.
 

Sixth Relative

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Hi Hilary

Just to be clear. My comment was directed to this question
My question is how to read your casting.

And it was to point one BASIC thing about Yijing, something that every beginner should be told at the very start: there is not a straightforward answer to that. One of the first things to say in any beginner's introduction to Yijing is: there have been and still are quite different schools and methods, the one I teach here is just one among many others.

The faster you drop the idea of one right way to read your answers, the more solid foundation you will have for a serious study of the Yijing. The longer you have the idea of one right way to read your answers, the greater is the risk for a dogmatic relation with the Yijing.

I have no problem with a practical advise on any particular method for a beginner, given from own's experience. I have no problem with someone saying, start with the one taught by Whilelm's; actually, that was the way I started. But from my experience, the best thing to do when someone ask how to read your answer is to show that there is not one answer, there are different ways.

Just my experience, anyway.
 
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Sixth Relative

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ps--- I do have problem whit labbeling the method tought by Lau Nai Süan to Whilhelm as the traditional reading. It may be the one most common in the West, but it is a Qing method (as long as I know, maybe a Ming one); any Han method has an older stance in terms of tradition. Even Wang Bi's and Zhu Xi's has an older stance in terms of tradition
 

innertruth

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No innertruth where did you get that idea from ? If you have 2 changing lines in the primary hexagram those are the ones relevant to you. You do not need to look at the corresponding lines in the second hexagram.

No. If you got 1.2.3>25 that is hexagram 1 with lines 2 and 3 changing to 25 you would look at hexagram one, lines 2 and 3, which you cast and also the second/relating hexagram of 25. No need to look at corresponding lines in 25 unless out of interest.

You can see from this thread there are numerous ways to handle interpreting change lines but I don't think any of them involve divining from the corresponding lines in the second hexagram. If you look at the fan yao for each line anyway you would get a different hexagram. So the fan yao of 1.2 is 13.2, but the fan yao of 1.3 is 10.3...see what I mean. If you use the fan yao you can only do it one line at a time.


But personally at the stage you are at I would advise you to completely forget any lines in the second hexagram.

Ok, now I'm clear which lines are the most important to be read and analyzed!
Yes I am a beginner rather..Been doing it for long though ..but reading methods never got to study them actually...
I think I read these rules about reading fan yaos in some online guide on moving lines..yes and all these schools of course stress different approach...

But in the end, the meaning is still there when Yi gives answer...I am just trying to get the right message...
And yes, thanks for pointing that Trojina, that fan yaos are different for each line, so no use to look into them! How could this have passed my attention! Yes, that's important..Each line changing doesn't get you to this produced hexagram. but to different hexagrams!!
So no use to read fan yaos of this hexagram you get!!
Then it makes sense...So I'm going to spend more time in the learning section as well..

So PRODUCED hexagram is only needed to be considered just as it is...
again I see a discussion here from SixthRelative and others...

Yes, Hilary, for starters I will stick with this simpler method..If it makes sense, then hell i will use it!!
 

innertruth

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NOTE: On a personal note, when using text-based methods, I don't use individual lines for the changed hexagram. My technical reason is that the full text for any yaoci (individual line) is "6 in the first...." or "9 in the top..." "6 in the second...", etc. When the 6 in the original hexagram is changed to the changed hexagram, it becomes a 7 not a 9; and when a 9 in the original hexagram is changed to the changed hexagram, it becomes an 8 not a 6; therefore, the text for the 6 or the 9 in the changed hexagram doesn't fit for a 7 or an 8 in the changed hexagram. But well, that's just me.

Best wishes

Sixth Relative,
Your ideas also point to the fact that reading changed hexagram's lines is quite useless..you demonstrated that these lines are not even matching the original moving lines...if you know what i mean...so

I really would love to research now what meaning does a CHANGED HEXAGRAM really carry.
I'm going to just read Hilary's notes here more carefully!
 

hilary

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Hi Hilary

Just to be clear. My comment was directed to this question

My question is how to read your casting
And it was to point one BASIC thing about Yijing, something that every beginner should be told at the very start: there is not a straightforward answer to that. One of the first things to say in any beginner's introduction to Yijing is: there have been and still are quite different schools and methods, the one I teach here is just one among many others.

The faster you drop the idea of one right way to read your answers, the more solid foundation you will have for a serious study of the Yijing. The longer you have the idea of one right way to read your answers, the greater is the risk for a dogmatic relation with the Yijing.

I have no problem with a practical advise on any particular method for a beginner, given from own's experience. I have no problem with someone saying, start with the one taught by Whilelm's; actually, that was the way I started. But from my experience, the best thing to do when someone ask how to read your answer is to show that there is not one answer, there are different ways.

Just my experience, anyway.
Of course you're right, there are many ways. But we differ about the best answer to the question, 'How to read a casting?' Well... it depends how you take the question. If it's really, 'Please give me a historical survey of the available ways to read a casting,' that's one thing, and if it's 'What do I do with my readings so I can understand and benefit from them?' that's something else.

There's 'serious study of the Yijing' and there's 'working relationship with the Yijing': two practices that work together and nourish one another, but are not necessarily the same thing.

ps--- I do have problem whit labbeling the method tought by Lau Nai Süan to Whilhelm as the traditional reading. It may be the one most common in the West, but it is a Qing method (as long as I know, maybe a Ming one); any Han method has an older stance in terms of tradition. Even Wang Bi's and Zhu Xi's has an older stance in terms of tradition
Yes, you have a point - there are so many traditions that 'traditional' is probably a meaningless word for me to use. We can't hope to reconstruct what the original users did with their oracle, after all - the Zuozhuan is already far, far away from them.

So what can we do? Get to know Yi, come to love and respect it, build experience, and listen to the voice of intuition that emerges from all these things. Mine says things like, 'The Yijing is the marriage of text and figures - that's what makes it an oracle,' and 'If I only need to look at one line, there will be only one line changing. If there are four lines active, I need to pay attention to those four lines.' Yours probably says something different. There is one original tradition we can know - and join: people having conversations with Yi.

By the way, did Wang Bi describe a method for reading castings? Of course I have RJ Lynn's beautiful book (I should reread...), but I don't remember such a thing mentioned there.

Yep, i think i read these guide online and was very confused with so much ways to interpret multiple moving lines!! my head spinned...well...I would prefer some basic method.
Well... in terms of method, the simplest thing is to read the moving lines you cast - all of them, and only them. Maybe if you start at the lowest line and read upward, you'll find they tell a story.

This doesn't lead to the simplest interpretations, though, not when you have a lot of lines moving! I would imagine that's why people came up with more complex methods to allow you to ignore most of the lines you cast and look at just one line or one hexagram. More complex method; simplified interpretation.

Personally, I think it's just that some situations are more complex than others - some contain lots of evolving, relating, conflicting factors - and the Yijing's capacity to give you anything from no moving lines to 6 means it can represent them all perfectly. Which is why I'm not drawn to those simplifying methods ;) .

I really would love to research now what meaning does a CHANGED HEXAGRAM really carry.
I'm going to just read Hilary's notes here more carefully!

Oh, books could be written...

Start with 'this is where you stand' and 'this is what it's about for you' - try that out on half a dozen readings from your journal, and see how it fits.
 

innertruth

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Yes, thank you very much Hilary and everyone!
I am much more clearer now about some fundamental stuff you have to take into account.
 

Sixth Relative

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Hi Hillary

Once again, to clarify where I'm standing [not for a "I'm right you're wrong" issue]:

Well... it depends how you take the question. If it's really, 'Please give me a historical survey of the available ways to read a casting,' that's one thing, and if it's 'What do I do with my readings so I can understand and benefit from them?' that's something else.

My comment doesn't take the question as if it means 'Please give me a historical survey of the available ways to read a casting,'; for that matter I'd just recommend Richard J. Smith's academic work.

My comment takes the question as meaning 'What do I do with my readings so I can understand and benefit from them?'. I'm talking not as an historian or an scholar but as a practitioner. And my experience as a practitioner shows me the risk of dogmatic relationship with the Yi when you develope a "there is one way to read the answer" mindset; it's better to know from the beginning that there are many different ways to read your answer. Then, you can start with any of them knowing that they are not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth ;)

As a matter of fact, I do recommend to start not only with the method taught by Wilhelm but with his translation. But I do clarify from the beggining (as Wilhelm did himself in his book) that there are other ways.


There's 'serious study of the Yijing' and there's 'working relationship with the Yijing': two practices that work together and nourish one another, but are not necessarily the same thing.
For me, there can't be any serious study of the Yijing without a working relationship with it (aka, practical use of it, or conversations with it); so, when I'm saying "The faster you drop the idea of one right way to read your answers, the more solid foundation you will have for a serious study of the Yijing" I'm not talking academic studies disconnected from a working relationship with the Yi, but having a actual practice with the Yi.

But since you made that distinction, let me rephrase:
The faster you drop the idea of one right way to read your answers, the more solid your working relation with the Yijing will be. The longer you have the idea of one right way to read your answers, the greater is the risk for a dogmatic relation with the Yijing.


I still believe this is a highly practical and basic thing to know about building a working relation with the Yi

So what can we do? Get to know Yi, come to love and respect it, build experience, and listen to the voice of intuition that emerges from all these things.

Well, how different is that to
Confusing? indeed. What to do?. In my case, have an open mind, try every school or method and decide if it works for me or not.

Of course, I'm not implying "try every school at once, inmediately, at the same time" :eek:

All the above is to clarify what I'm really saying. Of course, it is fine to understand what I'm advocating here and say: : no, you should not show in the beginning that there are different ways, that's too confusing for a beginner, show him/her only one method and they will find the rest latter.

OK... I'll leave it here.

Best wishes
 

Wyndham

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Hi innertruth,

Took the liberty to pose the following question:

"What might your advice be to a beginner concerning changing lines, Yi?"

The response was Hexagram 57.5, 9 5th, Subtly Penetrating

None of it made much sense to me in light of the question ... until I got to the changing line!! Here it is in full in Hilary's translation and commentary:

Line 5:

‘Constancy, good fortune, regrets vanish. Nothing that does not bear fruit. With no beginning, there is completion. Before threshing, three days. After threshing, three days. Good fortune.’

When you are constant in seeking to understand and enter in, there comes a moment when regrets vanish and nothing fails to bear fruit – not only because you’re always gaining valuable understanding, but also because this understanding enables you to bring about positive change. The origins of the situation are hidden away, and it may seem unpromising at first – but there can be real achievement when you do the work of ‘threshing’. You not only penetrate in to the core, gaining real understanding of what you have here, you also bring out what is valuable, discarding the useless chaff. Where previously you were feeling your way, now you make things clear. This isn’t accomplished all at once, but in a careful, attentive process of bringing things into awareness and setting them in a broader context. You need to allow time to consider what led up to this moment and what is taking shape now – and after the kernel is uncovered, you also need time to consider how it changes things, and how you will respond to it. There is a real opportunity here to change everything for the better.
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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