Danger and humiliation

ann · Feb 3, 2003

Sometimes I think I'll never get the hang of this!

I thought I'd take Hilary's advice and think about 1st Feb as being a new year. So I asked 'what should be my priority for this year?'

I got 35 'Progress', changes in 4 and 6 to make 2.

And again I'm seeing contradiction. The change lines say

'Perseverance brings danger'
and
'Perseverance brings humiliation'.

My question is: Is there a contradiction here? How can you progress if persevering brings danger and humiliation? Or, in the light of #2, am I supposed to just follow?

And what's this hamster? I had to laugh because my son had a hamster for Christmas, which spends the day in his bedroom, but the night in my study.

I am, as always, grateful for any help. I find I go along with the I Ching for a while, then suddenly get a reading that completely foxes me.
Thank you!
Ann

binz · Feb 3, 2003

could Yi being saying that progress should be by many many small steps, imagine a hamster travelling accross a field; it has a goal, it moves with cautious awareness, then rests to assess its position, considers the next direction and moves again.
Keep your awareness of others high, but do not make yourself obvious to them, then you may progress like a hamster?

the perserverence changing lines may be a caution to admit if something's not working, if somethings taking you nowhere (travel like a hamster in the wild, not a hamster in the wheel).

Maybe there will be several false trails on this years path? but when you find the right direction, then you shall Progress by Perseverence.

quiet perseverence brings good fortune.

Binz

candid · Feb 3, 2003

Ann,

Often the change lines describe the opposite of the general theme of a hexagram. This isn?t a contradiction because the change lines are changing from Progress (in this case) to a lack of progress, or that which may possibly hinder progress.

As an example: Progress like a hamster. This describes someone who attempts to progress by storing or accumulating as much as possible for oneself. (Ever see a hamster stuff there cheeks with food?) This type of behavior leads to humiliation, not progress. Progress is made only when one considers the whole picture, not just what one can accumulate for oneself.

The other change line, nine at the top, shows a similar case. Making progress with horns. This demonstrates a defensive posture, which only hinders real progress. Use the horns on yourself, if you use them at all. In other words, adjust your outlook on the progress you hope to make.

If these two selfish and defensive tendencies are corrected your progress will be assured.

The relating hexagram speaks of a mare, which is able to a carry and bear great weight and responsibility. This directly corresponds to your change lines in that it shows the way to adjust yourself so that progress will be achieved.

Candid

ann · Feb 3, 2003

Thank you so much both of you.

I have set up a company recently with a fellow director. Quite out of the blue, we were approached by someone we both know, who wants to join us in some way as yet unspecified. I must admit to being extremely cautious about this. Hadn't thought of it as being 'selfish', but certainly had worried about the other person's motives. I shall adjust my thinking.

Thank you for putting me straight - I was properly puzzled by this reading!

candid · Feb 4, 2003

Ann,

I think you've made an excellent point. The references to selfishness and defensiveness can at times certainly relate to another person or people outside ones self. This is true of every reading where others may be involved.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Candid

anita · Feb 5, 2003

This may be a bit of an aside, but I'm often baffled by references to character -- whether it is selfishness or goodness. Whose selfishness is the Yi talking about? I suppose if you ask about someone's intentions or character, then it is clear that the Yi is describing them, but at times it seems the other way round.

Any insights?

Best for your Quest

Anita

candid · Feb 5, 2003

Anita,

Interesting point. I'd agree, Yi's teaching is largely about character. The text is replete with references to it.

I'm not sure though what you're referring to by the other way around.

Yi paints a snapshot of a current or near future event. The only council it gives is to act in a manner that demonstrates innocence and correctness. This is the cornerstone of character, wouldn't you agree?

Candid

louise · Feb 5, 2003

I thought Anita was saying sometimes its hard to know who Yi is referring to when you ask about a relationship ? I used to get 17, 4 whichever way I asked about a relationship and could never be sure which one of us was the one gaining a following ? (I see this line has come up in another thread today.) Is that what you meant Anita by 'the other way around' ?

anita · Feb 6, 2003

Hello Candid and Louise,

Of course the Yi shows the way to be the superior man in every situation, but for example, if I ask the Yi about my future with my boyfriend and I receive say a line in hex 53 that says the wild goose reaches a place of safety and is able to rest a while -- who is this wild goose? Me or he?

Sometimes I have received line 1 in 53 -- the lonely young man working hard for his future and struggling upwards -- that to me certainly sounds like him and not me.

And when it gives me a line in the same context which says as in hex. 34 -- that one goes forward and gets entangled...who gets entangled? Who pushes forward when he shouldn't -- Me or he?

I suppose if I ask whether I will meet him soon and I get a line that says he gathers friends to him like a hair clasp gathers hair -- it is me that is being described, right? To me this means yes I will gather him to me soon. But at times it is not so clear as in the case above.

When I yesterday drew line 1 in 59 - rescue with a strong horse when asking about our future -- it seem sto me that I, not he will be rescued from a difficult situation. Likely that he will fly to my side (strong horse - aircraft?).

By the way, Louise, when I draw 17 in the context of a future with my boyfriend I will definitely read it as following each other. Him following me and me following him. That seems clear enough.

Best for your Quest

Anita

hilary · Feb 6, 2003

The wild goose is easy - being old Chinese, it could be 'goose' or 'geese', and in fact I think it's 'geese'. Not only do geese migrate in flocks, but this is the hexagram of developing relationships, after all... Two geese, flying together.

The simplest way to ensure you can tell who is meant by the answer is to be really specific in the question. I know that I can sound a little like a broken record on this subject, but choosing a question really is worth some careful thought. Questions like 'will we meet soon?' that expect yes/no answers can make for especially difficult interpretation. (Actually, that one is doubly difficult, as you're also looking for an answer about 'objective' time...)

Anita, your description of your string of questions leaves me with a dilemma. On the one hand, I know you have a strong personal relationship with Yi, and I respect that. On the other hand... I don't think that asking repeated questions, especially about the future, has ever been known to do anyone any good. Apart from anything else, by asking repeatedly about what will happen, are you letting Yi (or your own intuition) make suggestions about anything you might need to do, or change, yourself?

You see what I mean - it's possible that using the Yi in this way can actually take you further away from your inner knowledge and erode your free will. You're the only one who can tell for sure if this is happening.

I'll take that old record off now, I promise.

louise · Feb 6, 2003

Anita, no I don't think 17,4 simply means "following each other", but thankyou for the suggestion

lindsay · Feb 6, 2003

Dear Anita,

This may be a trivial point, but I'm pretty sure geese normally mate for life. When a mate dies or is lost, the remaining goose takes a very long time to remate, if ever. This is the kind of information our ancestors, being far closer to nature than we are, would know as a matter of course. I always figure such things must be implicit in any ancient reference to geese.

Happy New Year!
Lindsay

lindsay · Feb 6, 2003

Forgot to make my point! I think the mating characteristics of geese definitely reinforce Hilary's interpretation of 53. I also just noticed Wilhelm makes exactly the same point - maybe that's where I first encountered it (I've forgotten), but I know for a fact he is correct about the science of it. Symbol of partnership and fidelity.

L.

lenardthefast · Feb 6, 2003

Hi all,

Just a wry aside on the mating characteristics of wild geese. For most of my adult life I too thought that geese were partners for life.. turns out they are, but that infidelity is rampant among both sexs. Apparently its related to keeping the gene pool strong.

Namaste,
Leonard

lindsay · Feb 6, 2003

Thanks, Leonard! Partnership, yes; fidelity, no?

L.

anita · Feb 7, 2003

Louise,

I was only trying to give an example of hexagrams and lines received. Asking too many times? I sometimes may be guilty of that but I believe at each phase in the relationship different emotions and events can happen -- it's like keeping one's finger on the pulse of the relationship, so to speak.

I rarely ever draw 4 as an admonition from the Yi for asking too many times. I think one can ask with safety at different times and not get confusing answers -- I don't think I ever do. As for changing myself is concerned, I'm always aware of that and when the Yi points it out, I try to act accordingly. So whether I ask or not about how to behave, the Yi anyway brings it up.

17 -- sorry, wasn't looking at the exact line, but only at the general feeling of the hexagram. Of course there are certain ways to behave during following, but following it is, is it not?

Lindsay and Leonard, yes, yes, yes. I'm aware through Wilhelm about the fidelity of the geese. That is why they have been used as a symbol for this hexagram. Isn't that a beautiful hexagram to get for a relationship! Come now,Leonard, surely the Chinese weren't think of fidelity with promiscuity! They chose this symbol to imply absolute fidelity which is what our relationship is all about. Absolute and unquestioned. I don't think there can be fidelity without sexual faithfulness. On the other hand, Leonard, maybe you just mean to enlighten us with a fact! And knowledge gained is always good. Thanks.

Best for your Quest

Anita

louise · Feb 7, 2003

Hi Anita, re your response about asking too many times - your are addressing me but that post was written by Hilary. Not that it matters, i do agree with her - but the words of wisdom were not mine.

hilary · Feb 7, 2003

I was just coming over here to point that out myself, though more along the lines of 'don't blame Louise, at least not this time'

You're right (Anita) that Yi tends to give advice whether we ask for it or not. (And don't I know it...) What made me think of this in particular was actually your interpretation of 59,1. Over to you, again!

lenardthefast · Feb 7, 2003

Hi Anita,

Yep, I was just transmitting a fact about the sex lives of wild geese. Happened across it in an article I was reading awhile back and then saw a program on the Discovery Channel afterwards that actually showed the rampant infidelity. If my memory serves me, it was the female(sorry, girls), which was taking the initiative with unattached males. Seems whenever the male was away the female would actively solicit sex with other males. Also, and this is unrelated to the question of geese, I have personally witnessed rape of young, unattached male ducks by mature males as a seemingly territorial imperative adjunct.

I am sure that the ancient Chinese were using the symbolic aspects of the lifelong partnership of geese in their examples, perhaps not having the time nor means at their disposal for a full investigation of the fidelity aspects. Or, considering the way Chinese society regards the concubine question, perhaps the avian behavior was thought of as perfectly natural, even influential.

Well, enough of Avian Biology 101, nothing in the foregoing was meant to imply anything by me with regards to your relationship, Anita, merely, as stated in my first post, a wry aside. ;-)

Namaste,
Leonard

angel · Feb 7, 2003

Hi All,

The lines in Gua 53 seem to be part of a poem. Actually two verses from song number 159 of the book of the songs have the same image of the wild geese.. Both texts nor only have the same image but also have the same rime, and even the same punctuation.
This is taken from ? the meaning of I Ching? by H. Wilhelm. I have the Spanish version and I don?t feel able to translated it . Does anyone have it in English to show how similar both texts are?.

BTW Talking about imagination, I cannot tell for sure who is having more here, if the people talking about sex or some people here. Read the text and decide. Ideas are always wellcome anyway.

Happy weekend.

angel · Feb 7, 2003

Here there is...

Ode 159:
" Wild geese fly along the island:
when the lord goes,
we´ll have no chace to meet.
I will stay with you now.

Wild geese fly along the land:
When the lord goes,
I´ll not come back.
I will stay with you tonight"

And also Ode 181:

"The wild geese fly away.
beating their wings. ( sjek-sjek)
These boys go on campaign,
hard service in the wilds.
Alas, poor chaps, they´re lonely,
like their wives left at home.

The wild geese fly away,
flocking in the swamps.
These boys work hard at building;
a hundred yards of wall are up.
Although they labour hard,
they have a safe stronghold.

The wild geese fly away,
mounfully honking (ngag.ngag)
They were wise who said,
"Just toil away".
The were silly who said,
"Resist and mutiny".

anita · Feb 10, 2003

WHOOPS!

Excuse me Hilary for mixing up the posts. You're right (and Louise too) that asking the same question too many times can get confusing. But IMHO as I said before, asking at different periods can point you to certain new trends and events. I have seen this happen often. Also, the Yi is a friend I turn to when I'm feeling particularly lonely - wild goose away from her mate. Besides at times I draw the same hexagram. And I think if the Yi doesn't like it, it can give me 4, can't it? It rarely does that.

Sometime before on another thread I have pointed out that I have come across information that says the ancient diviners asked the Yi the same question 3 times in the same sitting. The second and third ones are meant to clarify the first hexagram. I always do that.

Leonard, That's hilarious. Actually I do think the female species is more sexually active. Did you see that one about the gorillas on Discovery? The females mate with males outside their tribe to make sure that some of their progeny survive.

Best for your Quest
Anita

lenardthefast · Feb 10, 2003

Hi Anita,

Unfortunately, I missed the one on the gorillas. I think I was watching a program on The Learning Channel that night describing the sexual deviances of Australian wombats. ;-))

Glad you enjoyed the post. Good luck with your relationship and as I have stated previously on this site I believe you may ask as many questions as you like. I myself, when it involves a relationship have been guilty of asking as many as 30 (gasp) a day! The heart does not seem to respect any rules regarding numbers in this case.

Namaste,
Leonard

Danger and humiliation

ann

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