Hello everyone

Almost a week ago I recieved a puzzling reading that I've been ruminating over ever since and have come up with nothing. I decided to post it here for some of the wonderful insights you all provide.

I composed my question in Word, copied it, pasted it into the box here, and posted it.

It disappeared. Gone. Nowhere. Off into the ozone. Before I realized that, I closed the Word doc without saving. Like a dunce, I rebooted the computer hoping to retrieve the autobackup file -- when the text was still probably still in the copy buffer and could have simply been re-pasted into the the message box, I realized too late. Rebooting, of course, cleared the buffer, and the autobackup file was history as well.

That's a roundabout way to my #2 question. Perhaps I'm not MEANT to ask my #1 question here at this particular time.

Any thoughts on that?

Kiya

Hi Kiya,

IMHO, this could have been a subconscious act on YOUR part. Perhaps you felt a reticence at publicly posting the question? It has been my experience in the past that sometimes, despite my seeming conscious exuberance regarding a situation, my subconscious remains shy. And the subconscious can be an extremely powerful force.

I doubt very much that this was an omen warning you not to post. My advice would be to re-examine your heart with regard to the question and after reaching objectivity regarding the question you will probably have insight on whether to post or not.

Hope this helps in some small way

Namaste,
Leonard

It does help, Leonard. And you're right on target. I have considered and reconsidered over the past few days whether to post my question -- and hesitated probably because I was afraid I might not like the answer! (Although I might like it, too!)

You hit the operative nail right on its head: objectivity.

Daddy, what's 'objectivity'?

Kiya

Hi Kiya,

As Binz mentioned in another thread a few days ago there is no such thing as a 'stupid' question or a 'bad' question. ALL questions are relevant to the one that is asking. The questions would never have existed without the underlying need for, if not an answer, at least a clue or a signpost, pointing us to the WAY.

I always try to remind myself that the unasked question is never answered. It remains there hanging in our minds, shrouded in mystery and illusion. It has also been my experience that by simply 'asking' the question the answer occasionally appears to me, even before any input from the forum members.

One of the really marvelous things about this forum is that all questions are regarded as relevant, none dismissed as trivial. So, my advice, ask away.

Namaste,
Leonard

Well, OK then, here?s the gist of it, if the gentle and patient souls here can endure yet an-other relationship question:

The man in my life spends a lot of time with a female friend, much more than he does with me. He says they are JUST friends but admits they were once more than that. He admits he loves me but is terrified of allowing something more complete to develop between us, so he keeps me at arms length but can?t stay completely away for very long. My friends and my shrink say she?s just a diversion. I?m not so sure.

So the other day I asked the Yi which of us is ?first in his heart? and received 16 --> 51. That made absolutely no sense to me, and after stewing over it a while, I asked Yi (rather testily, I?m afraid), ?That makes no sense to me. Just tell me what I should do about him.? The answer was 34/46, which sounds rather encouraging and is consistent with many past inquiries about how to handle this situation.

But I?m still flummoxed by 16/51 and wonder if someone could provide some insights. I really need an answer to the age-old question: Who?s on first?

Thanks!

Kiya

Hello Kia,

Glad I could make it here; I hope you are well.
You have quite a situation there, love is wonderful isn't it? For any of us to get a really good feel of your answer we would need to know which lines are moving in the Hexagrams.

-Look forward to it all-

Yes, sorry, forgot to mention it. Line 1.

Kiya

Hi S_Dandy Again

In the second 34-->46 lines 1 and 4 were moving. But that one is not nearly so obscure as the 16 (1)-->15. Sorry for the confusion -- obviously, I'm a real greenhorn (or maybe just an airhead!)

Kiya

Perhaps it makes sense if you consider that neither of you is first in his heart.

16 is called Enthusiasm, Weaving Images, or Providing For/Provision. What is first in his heart perhaps is the excitement of the contact. This could either be a good thing or a bad thing. If he is rather immature, probably what you are being told is that he just tends toward whatever is most exciting. 51 is Shock, Thunder.

If he is immature in a bit of a different way, then he tends AWAY from what is more exciting. That would be the perspective your shrink and his admission is suggesting - she is safe, you frighten him (because he has stronger feeling for you), so he prefers to spend time with her.

Either could be true. 34==>46 suggests you have great power in the situation (perhaps due to your greater maturity, your broader insight, or just because you have the power to accept him as is or to challenge him in some way). The warning of 34 is don't let your superior power translate into mere superior force. And the image of 46 is be like a growing plant - don't skip ahead any steps, go step by step. And don't build anything that isn't really genuinely you. If he is having trouble allowing "something more complete" to develop between you two, don't get caught up in a game of "winning" him or "rejecting" him just because that seems to be the expected or appealing game to play. Only do what you feel is the right next immediate step of your personal growth. Then the next, then the next.

If he is perhaps more mature, then there is a chance that he's actually trying to obtain the lessons/wisdom that 16==>51 promise. That, I think would be something like trying to figure out for himself what is real for him, what is illusion, and how to tell the difference. Again, don't assume that the choice is between you or the other woman. He may be trying hard to discover what set his enthusiasm in motion, and what are his weaknesses, responsibilities, strengths when that happens. Is he capable of many enthusiasms or one? Does he fear enthusiasm? Is that fear worth heeding, or a challenge to break through?

But cold feet are still cold feet, be they mature or immature ones. I come back to the image of the growing plant in 46. You are one such plant, he's another. The woman friend is another. Also, each of the relationships is a growing plant. What was the seed that they sprouted from? What are your respective attitudes toward watering them? What are your beliefs about whether they can coexist or not. Do you feel the relationship with the other woman is a weed that must be rooted out for your relationship with him to thrive? Does he agree? Does he maybe instead think that they're mutually beneficial plants, like a pole bean climbing a sunflower?

And going back to the issue of 16 - paying attention to what is real/illusory about right here and right now - remember that if it's spring and the relationship/plant is a little sprout with four leaves, well, even if you are confident you know what kind of plant it's going to grow up to be, it's not there yet, is it? You don't do the same things to tend to it now that you would later. A farmer has to think both long term and short term at the same time; so does a cultivator of relationships.

16 to 51 has to be line 1 moving, doesn't it. It implies an enthusiasm that is ill founded - or at least an enthusiasm that is best not expressed ?
I guess that appears not a very positive answer to your question. What do your friends think she is a diversion from ? Personally i would find the situation quite hard to take, especially as you say he spends more time with her than with you. But the theres your 2nd hexagram to consider, 34 ?

Hi Kiya,

IMHO, both casts are saying essentially the same thing. Slow down, be as the gentle wind as you penetrate to the heart of the matter. There is an indication of impatience on your part and this is perfectly understandable. With matters of the heart we are usually consumed by ideas, conflicts, suspicions, VERY strong emotions and perhaps jealousies; but at the bottom we just WANT TO KNOW.

This is a perfectly natural need for humans in this area. In your case, it seems that your 'need to know' may actually be putting unwarranted strain in the very place where it should not exist. Stop, step back and try a little 'objectivity'. *grins* In this case I would suggest that you try as hard as you can to 'put yourself in the shoes' of the object of your affection. From that perspective look back at yourself from the outside. Try to see your actions, words and deeds as your loved one does. Perhaps from this standpoint you will glean your answer. Its like implementing the Golden Rule. By backing off, you will actually advance.

The Yi is telling you that there is a potential in this situation but the potential will unfold at its own pace. Plus in your case it counsels patience and understanding first and foremost. I believe it is also telling you that to try and force the issue at this time will indeed cause 51 to materlize and none of us usually enjoy that scenario.

In my own personal experience I have a very, very close female friend who loves me dearly, but also understands that my heart belongs to another. She is still my best friend, makes no demands of me and is always supportive in all my endeavours. Perhaps this is the case with the object of your affection and his friend.

Patience, gentleness, compassion and care should be your watchwords for the present.

For Dandy: Please compare the two Hexagrams side by side and you will see the changing lines.

I hope this is of some small help, Kiya.

Namaste,
Leonard

Willow, thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I do think you (and my shrink) are correct: she is safe and I am very, very threatening because he knows this could be the first REAL love in his life. Pretty scary thought. You are correct also that my greater maturity (but not by much sometimes!) also frightens him -- he's terrified as well how well I understand him. So there she is, and here I am.

You could be right (and he has said in the past), it's not a "her or me" choice on his part. But that's not much comfort. As to 34, I certainly don't feel I ooccupy a superior or powerful position. Quite the contrary, I feel I am losing a contest to her. But then, she and I are miles apart in our respective senses of entitlement.

You are right on, too: I do feel our relationship can't thrive as long as she occupies such a prominent, preferential position, platonic or not. And that, of course, could be another deliberately erected barrier. Hadn't thought of that before.

You are quite right, too, about not getting caught up in game-playing. That's never been my style, but recently I thought I'd try adopting a few of her tactics, namely "jump when I say so." That works well for her but not for me. I did it for a week, in my deferential, but I felt very uncomfortable throwing my weight around. I'd rather have someone around because he wants to be, not because I dictate when, where, and how long.

But this relationship (for want of a better term) has been a history of one step forward, two steps back.

And Louise, you imply the essential question in your observtion that you would find the situation quite hard to take. Oh, mama! But, as you say, there's 34 to consider...

Thank you both so much!

Kiya

Leonard, thank, you, too! Yes, I must agree that I am being told to slow down and let things unfold at their own pace -- the consistent message I've received over the past five years with this guy. But geeeeez! How much patience must I muster up?

Ow, there's that "objectivity" word again. Learning patience and objectivity, I believe, are my major tasks this time on this plane!

Thank you for your story about your lady friend. I take comfort from that. Perhaps this situation is similar; I do so hope.

Your choice of words, "patience, gentleness, and compassion" are the very ones he so often uses to describe my treatment of him, so perhaps I'm on the right track. As you say, retreat to advance (and I've had that message from Yi before, too!).

Thank you for bolstering my determination to see this through. It really helps.

The wonderful thing about this forum is the amazing outpouring of generosity and caring. Love you all!

Kiya

Way to go team!!


(Is there an icon for a big thumbs up?)

Hi Dandy

Isn't it amazing how the "team" jumps in with the most generous, sage, sane advice and support, just when you need it most?

Y'all are just great!!!

Kiya

HI Kiya,

After reading your last post a thought came to mind. Sometimes 'relationships' are object lessons and sometimes 'object lessons' turn into relationships.

Your situation resembles deja vu to me, as I have completely changed entire sections of my personality in the pursuit of my 'relationship'. And, it too, has run the course of about 5 years. At the present I find myself still as much in love as I ever was but lately I have been entertaining the notion that perhaps the 'relationship' was actually the catalyst for inner growth. The pursuit of the love affair has turned into a quest for myself.

I certainly hope that eventually I will be aligned with the object of my affection but that desire has been somewhat alleviated by the thankfulness I feel for the intangible rewards I have been granted over the course of the pursuit. I may not yet have what I 'want' but I have certainly gotten many things that I 'need'.

Namaste,
Leonard

I'll say, Kiya. I've learned quite a bit from the generous help of All.

Still it'd be nice to see people at the Clarity chat site.

Thunder rises to meet heaven
-SHAKE-

Good for you, Leonard! The Yi has told me from time to time to focus on my personal growth, and of course it all boils down to that, doesn't it? If we can't be right for ourselves, we can't be right for those we would have love us.

I think I have grown a little from this encounter, but oh, it's so difficult (and sometimes hard to see how or where).

May we both find ourselves with our true loves. And SOON, dang it!

Hugs,
Kiya

Hi S_Dandy

It might be fun to try the chat room with the gang. I didn't participate in the previous one and am not quite sure how it works or whether it would be comfortable, but maybe Hilary will set up a get-acquainted party one of these days.

You'll recognize me right away. I'm the born wallflower cowering in the corner!

Kiya

Hi S_Dandy

It might be fun to try the chat room with the gang. I didn't participate in the previous one and am not quite sure how it works or whether it would be comfortable, but maybe Hilary will set up a get-acquainted party one of these days.

You'll recognize me right away. I'm the born wallflower cowering in the corner!

Kiya

Kiya, My guess is he's boasting to you of this other woman - misplaced enthusiasm. Also noted in Wilhelm on 16 is, moving along the lines of least resistance. In other words, whichever happens to be available at a given moment and whichever caters to his ego, that's where he gravitates toward.

I've been there a few times, but I guess it can be sorta scary- Who will be there, what will they say? All in real time. Intresting. So much space so few fingers..sigh.

-..golden fields on nutrients-

Hi Candid. He certainly doesn't boast, but he may well follow the path of least resistance. And it's easier to reflexively say "how high?" when she says "jump" than to cultivate a deeper relationship with me, perhaps. From what I hear, she's highly critical and controlling (and she likes it that way), whereas I'm just the opposite. But I suspect she's just like the girl who married dear old dad...


Kiya

As Candid said on another thread -- the Yi is no insurance on relationships, yet it can egg us on because these relationships are meant for us to help us realise something about ourselves and the universe. What Leonard says is also similar.

On the other hand I wonder why the Yi cannot answer correctly when one asks if so and so is meant to be one's partner. I believe it can answer such questions too. Try it Kiya and much luck and joy to you in your relationship.

Let's look at line 1 in 16 again --

his contentment is well-known. Inauspicious.

Since people know that he has no desire to improve himself, he is not taken seriously and remains in a low position.

Could this mean that everyone knows he's content with this other woman and that he has no desire to let go of the relationship? Could it mean that he needs to 'improve' -- to let go? And because he fails to do so, he remains in a 'low position' where you are concerned? And this could lead to perhaps a break up between you?

The second throw seems more positive in regard to your relationship. Now is not the time to force issues, but later on,if you continue with him line 4, things resolve themselves and you are able to progress -- 46.

The question is which reading you want to go with.

Best for your Quest

Anita

Kiya - With a woman, a little vanity is appropriate. With a man, a lot of vanity is the norm. So when I speak of his ego, I'm not separating him from the rest of his (our) gender. This is reflected in boasting. It may not be flamboyant boasting, but you do seem to know allot about the dynamics of their relationship, and I don't think you heard it from her. (?)

Also, it could be just his nature to enjoy a more submissive role in his intimate relationship. Some folks are just wired that way. Others, like her, enjoy controlling or dominating their partner. These are extremes of leading and following, and rounding out character would equalize these extremes. Maybe that's where you come in, rounding him out and offering him back his own creative power. The choice is ultimately his though, and one should respect his own choices for himself.

Anita - I'm not sure why Yi doesn't just say, "forget it. Its not going to work out as you've imagined." Or, "go for it! This is the one who was born to be your soul-mate." I suspect its because that person is in our lives for a good reason in either case, probably a reason of our own making. We draw to us the desires and fears of our own heart.

Hi Anita and Candid

Thanks for your insights.

Anita, I have indeed over the years asked whether he and I are meant to be together and have consistently received encouragement along those lines, which is why I continue to perservere. I think you're right that he is both content in and reluctant to give up that relationship. He insists she's just a friend; I would prefer her to be entirely out of the picture. I do take encouragement from the second throw, and thanks for your good wishes. And you have my good wishes for your relationship.

Candid, you are correct that my insights into that relationship come from him. I've never met her. You are correct also that he tends to gravitate toward domineering women, from mama on up. I am completely different from every woman he has ever been involved with, and that's part of the problem and my appeal, I guess. I don't control, I treat him as an adult, I request rather than demand. And above all, as you say, I "respect his choices for himself."

That's why this has gone as long as it has. He advances and retreats, and as painful as it is for me, I respect that. I know he is struggling and I know he must do it at his own pace. I hope his path eventually ends at my door. Because despite everything, I think he's worth it.

Thanks to you both.

Kiya

Just to clarify: I said I would prefer her to be entirely out of the picture, not because I dont' want him to have friends, but because I don't trust HER motives. Women have manipulated him a lot.

Kiya

Kiya, Im trying hard not to influence you with my opinions, cause only you can decide on the proper course of action. So please take my advice with a grain of salt.
But let me tell you a little about male psychology (this shouldnt take long, we're really predictable):
There is no bigger turn on than rejection. We men are hunters, we like scattering our gene pool around, thats what we're programmed for. So we need a challenge, to feel its worth the day, and in my understandment you're not making things very hard for him. In fact, he may be neglecting you cause he's taking you for granted, and she may be earning points by being a bit more of a jumper when she says no. Men like that, just like kids actually like their parents to discipline them, so they feel they care. Its all in the challenge, you know, and some women know very well how to be the prey (or how to convince us of that). Its not right or wrong, its the way things are.
So perhaps you should convince yourself that you dont need him, and just think how you can improve your life regardless of him. Wouldnt that allow you to think more of yourself and perhaps see things better? After all, do you really need him, or are you just convincing yourself of that? Do you know if somewhere else is that mr. right for you and you are shutting him doors just because you are afraid to look elsewhere?
But Im not saying you should give up, I know that is hard, Im just saying that perhaps its time to revise your strategy, and risk a little more. Its hard to do it, but maybe if you withdraw a little, not harshly, but somehow hint to him that youre loosing interest or considering other choices, he would see things differently.
Dont expect him to act the way you would, instead try to see it from his eyes (#61). Just dont let yourself feel desperate, cause we men can smell that. Show him that he is the one to lose, should he not appreciate what you feel for him.
What is it that he can find in her that he cannot find in you? Something there is, otherwise he wouldnt spend so much time with her. But she doesnt give him all he needs, otherwise he wouldnt come back to you. So perhaps you have much more to offer than she does, and you just have to realise what is it that you're missing and that she is giving him. The you'll have it all.
Finally, I seem to sense that she is taking this seriously, she is in it for the prize, not to be his friend like he may naively think.
So you better put off some fight, sister!!!

Pedro, you are wonderful! You dear, kind, predictable, programmed male, you!

Thank you for the reminder of the male psyche. I think you are absolutely right, a change of strategy is called for. In fact, I had come to that conclusion myself and have already done as you suggest -- thank you for reinforcing my decision and my resolve.

You are absolutely correct, too, I believe, that she is taking this very seriously, how ever dense HE may be about her motives. Thank you for suggesting I may have more to offer than she does; I'd like to think that's true.

So the gloves are off. She'd better watch out, 'cause I'm coming out of my corner swinging!

Kiya

glad you liked it, just dont get too excited that you risk some abrupt change... after all you dont wanna scare the chap, or mess (more) with his mind
You gotta go steady, like the wind, gently but with a concise goal in mind... Its not a revolution that you should start, just a careless influence you spread, like you didnt even have to try... I know that should come easy, just let that irresitible female charm of yours run loose In relationships it is as important to give as to take away (some fishing knowledge must come handy here). So give enough, but take as well so you're not granted...
And who knows, maybe you'll inadvertedly charm someone new, who may even deserve you better... Just keep open, this is the best advice I can possibly give (you realise that Im advicing myself as well, dont you? )
wish you the best of luck,
pedro