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At a crossroad: oracle or attitudes

learner

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It is a key moment in my relationship with the I-Ching and I would like to share some ideas with you. Being a learner for ten years, I have gone through phases, some more beneficial than others to deepening my understanding of the book.
In the past, for example, I used to ask several questions in a row, concerning the same situation, and got into the habit of 'embellishing' the questions in order to 'conceal' from the I-Ching that, in fact, I was asking the same thing time and time again.
Needless to say, the answers used to be as repetitive and puzzling as the questions in which they were based on.
As 'our relationship' developed, significant improvement was made. I started to avoid multiple questions, managed to control a tantrum when the answer was not the one I was hoping for and became less interested in asking about trivialities.
Life with I-Ching, nevertheless, is not a haven of peace and tranquility, especially because those who seek its wisdom tend to be enquiring minds.
Currently, the I-Ching presents a challenge.
Somehow I feel that at this point it is of crucial importance to recognise the distinction between oracle and advice.
I really need to know when the I-Ching 'talks' as the oracle and when it refers to my attitudes towards a given situation. Not knowing the difference makes me unsure about the applicability of the reading to the situation itself.
I do understand that I-Ching users have different approaches to interpreting their answers. The subjects also vary enormously.
Personally, I like to use the I-Ching to look into practical matters, enabling me either to gain insight or to foresee events.
I humbly accept that of its own accord the I-Ching 'decides' what kind of answer I am going to get. However, I would like to be able to identify them afterwards. In some occasions the answer fits into a familiar pattern of prediction, whereas in others it is unclear if the I-Ching is just drawing my attention to some attitudes that might be considered negative and, as such, should be changed.
Just to give an example, I tried to get the answer for a question which pops into my mind frequently. I was trying to know if I am going to find someone for a meaningful relationship. The questions were asked in a format that, theoretically, should have drawn a 'oracle response.' The enquiries were made within a period of a month.
Here are the readings:

Hexagram 45 -Gathering Together- with first, third and sixth moving lines.

1-'If you call out,
Then after one grasp of hand you can laugh
again.'
3-'Gathering together amid sighs.
Nothing that would further.'
6-'Lamenting and sighing, flood of tears.
No blame.'

Hexagram 53 -Development- with first, second and sixth changing lines.

1-'The wild goose gradually draws near the shore.
The young son is in danger.'
2-'The wild goose gradually draws near the cliff.
Eating and drinking in peace and concord.'
6-'The wild goose gradually draws near the cloud
heights.'

Hexagram 19 -Approach- with second, fourth and sixth changing lines.

2-'Joint approach. Good fortune.'
4-'Complete approach. No blame.'
6-'Greathearted approach. Good fortune.'

By analysing the hexagrams, I found hard to say if those readings are a prediction or a piece of advice.
The first hexagram, Gathering Together, could have been a prediction because that is the way I feel at the moment. On the other hand, if Hex 45 were a description of my loneliness here in Oxford I would not know how to explain the first line, which might represent a person coming into play to help me out.
Regarding the second hexagram, Development, there are multiple possibilities, since the second line could have predicted a happy relationship ('eating and drinking in peace and concord') whereas the sixth might have told me that I would be alone ('outside the affairs of the world, taking part only as a spectator').
Finally, Hexagram 19 may be a piece of advice, perhaps the right attitude to meet other people and find the person I am looking for.

I do apologise if this thread ended up a little bit extensive, but, being a non-native speaker, I was trying to make myself as clear as possible.

I would deeply appreciate your thoughts on the issue and I hope that my questioning on the duality oracle-attitudes does make any sense to you.

All the best,
Mirian
 

ziegenfarm

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i will just share with you some things i have learned from i ching or underscore some things you may already know:
* avoiding attatchment to an answer or to the outcome will also avoid disappointment.
* avoiding the highs and lows of happiness and sadness, but seeking the leveling is the wisdom and the way of sages.
* acceptance of what "is." there is no need to be frantic about the future or having knowledge of it. trust fate.
* remember that fear and desire are the two things we must overcome. they are the motivators for our troublesome acts.
 

dobro p

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"Just to give an example, I tried to get the answer for a question which pops into my mind frequently. I was trying to know if I am going to find someone for a meaningful relationship."

I'm no oracle, but here's my response to your question: it's obvious you want to be in a meaningful relationship, so why not use the Yi to develop a useful approach to achieving that aim? Here's a question to ask along those lines: "What do I need to know and do about finding myself in a meaningful relationship that both of us can benefit from?"

With all respect, I think the question you put to the Yi reveals a kind of passive attitude to the issue, as if it contains the assumption that life might (or might not) supply you with a good partner and you'd like to know what to expect. (A guy on the internet really put it well one time; he said: "I don't know why I'm so lonely; *loads* of women have my address.")

'Proactive'. Now, *there's* a word.
 
D

dharma

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hi mirian
happy.gif
, here are my thoughts...

i identify with all of your experiences. been there done that. but i've come away with a different understanding regarding the use of multiple questions and such. i've come to see that though the subject that i am asking about may be the same, the re-phrasing of the question actually allows me to see the issue from a different angle. certainly, the angles are not always so vastly different as to make a whole lot of difference, but the slightly altered responses do allow me to see the variant nuances of a given situation precisely because the question's focus has shifted moderately away from the primary inquiry.

also, the answer to your 'dilemma' as presented here has to do with the "real" questions that are being asked. emotional turbulences, even mild anxieties, will cause the "real" question we are intending to ask to sometimes remain below our conscious awareness depending on the unconscious motivation that is troubling us. until we become fully centered during the "questioning" phase of divination one is subject to this kind of confusion during the interpretive phase of a reading.

oracles, as i understand them, respond perfectly and reliably to whatever we are asking every single time. confusion arises when, what we get in the form of an answer doesn't jibe with the what we "thought" we were asking, and then we begin to imagine that the oracle is presenting us with some extraordinary and supernatural "intent". the key is honing one's ability for centeredness that allows for full conscious awareness and clarity during the questioning phase of divination. this is the reason why traditionally elaborate rituals are performed in preparation for important readings. it allows us to gain a centered awareness of the real question we are asking and leaves no room for doubt about what the oracle is addressing.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Miriam-
This is a good perennial question.
While the thumb twiddler is fully justified in his belief in fate, I side with the Yi being about attitude.
I've called it a "catalogue of attitudes." It can also be thought of as a toolbox. Then, a reading is simply handing you the perceptual & attitudinal tools that you will be needing the most during the time you specified in your question.
b
 

lenardthefast

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Hi Miriam,

Kind of going with the flow here. Its been my experience that ambiguous questions lead to vague answers. IMHO, the question is at the crux of the reading and time invested in phrasing that question is time well spent should you desire the most accurate answer. I have found that the more 'specific' YOU are, the more 'specific' the Yi's answer. I have also had much better results with questions that are asked from the standpoint of 'What may I DO...What should I be DOING...", etc., in order to obtain the desired results. The Yi being a book of CHANGES, I have found that in order to influence my 'future', I usually have to DO something which would further those ends. When I ask questions like this, I usually get VERY specific answers, sometimes so specific as to be almost eery. ...and they are generally loaded with advice and instructions concerned with changing my attitude, outlook, approaches. actions, etc.

Hope this is of some help. Good luck!

Namaste,
hex04.gif

Leonard
 

chrislofting

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Mirian,

The IC is a metaphor for what we can know as a species. IOW when you address the IC you are addressing yourself and by association the family/collective to which you belong and ultimately the species.

Since we seem to have adapted to the context by internalising its characteristics (as in 'yin/yang' so our meanings can also reflect 'out there')

Our species interacts with the environment holistically and that is reflected in the IC or more so the generic qualities we all share as a species to derive meaning (those qualities being mapped to IC symbolisms)

Thus the WHOLE of the IC is applicable to every moment. That is at the GENERAL. At the level of the particular the PARTS (hexagrams or trigrams or dodecagrams depending on you scale of analysis) get sorted into an ordering of 'best fit/worst fit'.

Our consciousness is so attracted to the high bandwidth end, the 'best fit', that it will ignore all else - which is unfortunate in that 'full spectrum thinking' is useful for problem solving etc. ;-)

The use of randomness gives you 1 out of the 64 hexagrams and as such there is 1 in 64 chance of you receiving the 'best fit' hexagram.

Your brain will 'link the dots' to refine things, to force the derived hexagram to be a representation of a situation. There is error here. ;-)

If you can trust yourself, just an iota, then use generic questions to aid in describing the situation, the method can give you a better chance of scoring the 'best fit' hexagram.

For a 'quick' IC (and so really general answer but usable) see:

http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/lofting/proact3.html

For a more detailed IC see:

http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/proact4.html

Given a result there is a 64-hexagram string that reflects the full spectrum linked to the situation.

Our consciousness is PARTIAL and as such cannot deal with 64 hexagrams all expressed at once in different order of qualities, it needs to go through the sequence one at a time to get the whole picture of a situation.

(Re differences in qualities:- hex 23 in its positive 'peak' state reflects the high priest/priestness 'pruning' the faith to its core elements, removing all of the 'crap'. 23 in its 'basic' state reflects the simple act of housekeeping. In its 'darkest' form it represents the last element of structure prior to total collapse into darkness. BIG range of qualities - (64 in fact per hexagram!... but then each of them has 64 possible expressions....!!.. so how deep do you want, do you need, to go?!))

Chris.
 

chrislofting

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Mirian,

something else to consider:

the reading of a hexagram from bottom to top reflects an overall bias on qualities expressed from the general and so integrated to the particular and so differentiated. Thus, the top half of a hexagram is 'in' a context that focuses on the particular, the differentiated, more so than the bottom half of the hexagram that is 'in' a context that focuses on the general, the integrated.

This will give you *contexts* that are egalitarian (base) vs aristocratic (top).

Thus trigrams will have different properties in top or bottom positions, with their general, raw, characters expressed in the bottom and their more particular, refined, characters in the top.

Thus yang-based trigrams 'belong' in the top context as 'yin' based trigrams 'belong' in the bottom context. Dynamics ensures that this does not occur in that a yin-based trigram will enter the yang context but in doing so will have its 'buttons' pushed to become more 'yang' in expression - thus a cooperative will become more 'hard-edged' in that cooperation, as a competitive trigram (YANG-based) will become more 'soft-edged' in the bottom position.

Thus we have:

Trigram : LOWER : UPPER

heaven : perseverence : singlemindedness (devotion to self)
lake : self-reflection : intense self expression
fire : guidance : direction-setting (ideological)
thunder : enlightenment : awareness (we go past the 'suddeness')
wind : cultivation : becoming influencial
water : containment : control
mountain : self-restraint : discernment
earth : devotion (to another) : dualmindedness

These terms are particulars in that at the base level of trigram meanings what is covered is a spectrum of light, from high bandwidth (heaven) to low (earth):

111, 110, 101, 100, 011, 010, 001, 000

From an archetypal perspective this is light vs dark and so overly competitive. Move to the cooperative interpretations and we have male vs female. IOW the base qualities get relabelled given a unique context.

we can in fact map raw emotions to this:

111 - anger
110 - sexual love
101 - acceptance
100 - surprise
011 - anticipation
010 - rejection
001 - sadness (grief)
000 - fear

thus, for example, anger 'refined' elicits such concepts as 'respect'. fear 'refined' elicits such concepts as devotion (to another/others, to compensate for the fear seek protection in a group etc)

Move to 'interpreting the IC' and the 111 end reflects the 'best fit' end of the spectrum; the end that focuses in differentiating, on 'sticking out the most'. Our hexagrams get sorted onto this spectrum from 'best to worst'.

EACH position is a position from which one can interpret reality, and so from which one can live their life as an individual consciousness- BUT full spectrum thinking means we make the attempt to grasp the whole ;-)

If you order the hexagrams in binary ordering then a path of development emerges moving from yin to yang in a zig-zag fashion in that due to the 'hard coded' basic nature of yang from yin so when the yin advances on the yang the yang has nowhere to go than to swap the contexts! So we have:

yang in yang / yin in yin
yin in yang / yang in yin
yang in yang / yin in yin
etc
etc

The value of the IC is in its reflection of basic properties of the universe and the species. As MODELS we use specialisations like the IC to reflect 'out there' and the success of the model is in the correlation with patterns of 'out there' - we derive meaning through resonance.

Chris.
 

learner

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Valuable viewpoints, all of you. Thank you so much.

Ziegenfarm,
It is very true what you say about not being frantic about the future or speculating on it.
I do try to reassure myself, believe me.
However, more and more I feel as tough destiny, fate, you name it, is the strongest force in our life.
The more I think about, the more convinced I am that not always fate is in our favour, though.
There is enough evidence that. Not only in our daily affairs but also in things that really matter and are essential. In practical terms, we know that.
That is the crossroad, my friend. But I will mull over on your bullet points. Love them.
 

learner

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Dobro,
There is something that I would like to tell you kindly, because I do respect your sensible advice. 'Be proactive.' This is exactly what I do not want to be.
It will probably sound a kind of passive attitude towards life, but proactive is everything that I have been all my life.
Since I was very young (I am in the forties now!) I have been struggling to make things happen.
I have been proactive to achieve most of what I have -financially, emotionally, professionally, spiritually...
I hope you see my point.
For once in my life I do not want to be proactive. I want to know that there is something in store for me there. Destiny, fate. Whatever it might be, it has to be there for me. 'Falling from heaven' perhaps?
 

learner

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Hi Bradford,
The 'perennial question' is at the core of my relationship with the I-Ching at the moment, as you can see.

I'm thinking about you said.
 

learner

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Hi dear Dharma,
I know what you mean and I totally agree on that.
But it just dawned on me why the 'divination-advice' issue gained such a great importance.
Surprisingly enough, it is not about the I-Ching, it is about my life.
What I want to know is what is destiny and what can be changed. What I would like to be told is what is bound to happen and what will only happen if I act in a certain way or change my attitudes.
And the relationship question is in the center of the issue.

Mirian
 

learner

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Hi Bradford,
Just to add another thought. It is likely that the I-Ching is not an oracle, after all. The whole idea might be based on the belief that we can -and should- change things in our life by adopting the 'right' attitude, in a broad sense, of course.
Perhaps human beings are not entitled to know about the future.


Thank you all again.

Love,
Mirian
 

bradford_h

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Hi Mirian-
It just occurred to me to add that given our size in relation to the forces that knock galaxies around, there is a whole lot of force majeure that's way outside our control. I didn't mean to imply that we are absolute masters of destiny. We are, however, quite capable of screwing things up, as well as improving our lives, and that's where attitude comes in - the courage to change the things we can, the wisdom to know the difference.
b
 
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dharma

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mirian i am nowhere near being an expert with the yi but allow me if i may...

when i look at the hexagrams that you have posted above i get a sense that the answers that you got seem to reflect a different aspect and stage of your inquiry.

45>13 seems to focus on the types of connections you've perhaps made in the past and how those experiences continue to play a significant role in attaining your goals.

53>5 seems to indicate how those past effects can be worked through gradually, patiently and over time.

19>21 then points to the fact that the opportunity will eventually come and that for a truly successful outcome you should prepare to approach in the manner indicated.

these are all relevant stages that anyone should address as they make their way towards a goal such as this. and i imagine that the yi was addressing each stage in succession for you.

1674.gif
happy.gif
 
C

cheiron

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Hi Learner

Seems to me that you are no more a learner than I!

The questions you ask are the great ones?

You said <FONT COLOR="0000ff">?Life with I-Ching, nevertheless, is not a haven of peace and tranquillity?"</FONT>

Life is not a haven of peace and tranquillity? there is the problem!

There are many well informed and wise words above? But I would like to add a different thought?. A personal experience.

My life has had its share of disappointments and hard times? I used to bewail them? still do when they happen at first? more and more I see them as difficult lessons from which much good has come? Hey, I'm normal, chuckles...

The Yijing can be an honest in your face teacher? It can laugh at you and with you? it can withhold information when you need to learn the hard way? it can help you out when you already have the lesson sussed or where real harm might come to you? these are my experiences.

It takes a long time to develop a relationship with it.

The Yijing has never allowed me to shortcut life?s lessons? steal ahead of the opposition so to speak? It?s more like a teacher than a simple oracle?

It is quite clear from your first post that you already are well on the way to developing a good relationship with it?

Fate is what happens to those of us who shut our eyes... who close their ears... destiny is for those who seek to see...

I wish you a good journey friend? strength to face the hard bits and laughter to face it all.

--Kevin
 

learner

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Kevin,
Thank you so much for sharing a personal experience. I am sincerely moved by your words.
You know, the Y and I are in a 'kind of crisis' in our relationship... Hope to get over.

Love
Mirian
 

learner

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Bradford,
Interesting point you made there: the wisdom to understand the difference between what can be changed and what cannot, that is to say our destiny.
One of the main reasons for my trying to learn from the I-Ching is the possibility of exploring foreseeable events. Some people believe that all the information we need about our own life, including the future, lies in the subconscious. As such, tapping this source can help us to draw the information to the consciousness and to cope with a variety of situations.
Considered that way, prediction might be a facet of the I-Ching to look at, as well as the 'catalogue of attitudes', if I may borrow the expression from you, Bradford.
That would be my 'ideal' I-Ching, the one working on different levels of my mind. I am saying 'ideal' because I truly believe that the interaction between the user and the book creates an I-Ching which is quite personal.
I am still unsure whether or not the I-Ching provide us with 'oracle responses', on the premise that we ask precise questions.
And I am not saying that the psychological and the philosophical approaches are not important.
I benefit from them -and I am grateful for having this tool to help me out.

Dharma,
I read carefully your comments on my reading(the three hexagrams) and I must confess that they do make a lot of sense.
Perhaps this reading already reflects my attempts to draw from my mind answers that might be clearly identified as either prediction or advice.

All the best,
Mirian
 

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