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52.3

Sparhawk

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Hi Brad,

I need some clarification about this line and the way you translated it. Wilhelm translated it as:
Nine in the third place means: Keeping his hips still. Making his sacrum stiff. Dangerous. The heart suffocates.

While Legge did as:
Shows its subject keeping his loins at rest, and separating the ribs (from the body below). The situation is perilous, and the heart glows with suppressed excitement.

However, you translated it as:
52.3, 9 3rd
Setting those restrictions*
Enumerating those distances
Rigors choke the heart

And commented the following:
52, Notes
* 52.3 I am not convinced that the primary meanings here continue the anatomical analogy, i.e. that xian should be glossed as loins or waist and yin as ribs, vertebrae, or a spinal muscle. These meanings, if they were original and not simply derived in an attempt to complete the analogy, did not survive in the Chinese language. Neither do they appear to be etymological in origin.

Would you care to elaborate some more about your choice of words for this line?

Thank you.

Luis
 

bradford_h

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Hiya Luis-

This line is indeed a mess to translate. One of the ten worst.

For Xian4, Mathews gives: Boundary, limit, a fixed time; to limt, to regard as a limit.
Karlgren gives: obstacle, limit. Weiger gives: limit, boundary, restriction.
It's absent in Schuessler.
Kunst has waist too, following Gao Heng, and thinks this a loan for GSR416l.
This has always been speculation, and attempts to continue the analogy of body parts, without much other justification, other than a set of anatomical meanings for Yin2 below.
The radical 170, Fu, a mound, isn't much help in itself, but the other part of the character is Gen, the Ba Gua, limit, and this is definitely some kind of self-reference to the overall Gua 52 that we are in. Maybe a reference to the double Ba Gua, as in "piling on the limits" or "heaping up the limits" or "compounding limitations".
For Yin2, Mathews gives: a distant place, to be leagued with, a girdle, to respect, to advance.
Karlgren has: small of back, kidney. Kunst is similar. It's absent in both Weiger & Schuessler.
Mosash has: late at night. Zhongwen has: distant place, remote, deep.

The idea of dividing oneself at the midsection in 52.3 (high vs low, spirit vs flesh), and screwing up ones whole being thereby, has been around at least since Wang Bi, and this should be part of the understanding of 52.3, even if the line is translated the way I have done it. In any case, the activity of the line is perverse or against nature and the heart will suffer for this sort of schism or disunity.
 

Sparhawk

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Thanks so much Brad. That makes more sense to me now.

Cheers,

Luis
 

bradford_h

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Oh does it now?
It just made me More confused
happy.gif

Hey LiSe ....
 

Sparhawk

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Well, it is confusing in the way the semantics are used for the different characters. As for the real meaning of the line, it seems to call for a consensus.

I cannot touch the technical part of the translation and why I asked you for some clarification. The rest is how I interpret the line also. I wanted to see if your choice of words departed in some way from that meaning, and, if that was the case, integrate those thoughts to my interpretation.

It would certainly be interesting to know what LiSe thinks about this line. I also find curious that Kunst stuck to the mainstream for his translation.

It could be a very confusing line depending on the context of the question. I usually get it right though...
happy.gif



Luis
 

heylise

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The fanyao, 23.3, says something like 'just get rid of it', make yourself free.
So I think this line is along the same meanings.

I agree not entirely with 52 being about meditation. It does include it, but it is much more. Gen is a picture of someone looking around defying, or arrogant. Keeping everyone or everything away. It is the base of meditation, making the mind free. But that can also be done through anger, through solitude, through insight, and in many other ways. So the 'keeping still' is IMO only a small part of the overall meaning.

I have in my Yi: 52.3 Stabilize one's limits. Arrange one's ambitions. Danger of poisoning the heart.

I am not satisfied with 'stabilize', but it is so far the best meaning I could find, encompassing most. 'Making them according to one's own being' is better, but way too long. Maybe simply 'set one's own ..', as meaning for 52, whatever it is one sets. An act of individuality.
It is not certain that the heart will be poisoned, it is just a warning. When one frees oneself from limits set by the world, there is danger of being too strict with oneself and with one's own limits. The world has some suppleness, caused by ages of experience, but for oneself this experience is sometimes not yet present.

I am also still searching for 'the' meaning, or at least one that really satisfies, and includes also the other possibilities. Because the parts of the body make sense too.
LiSe
 
A

alexis

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Hello LiSe,

Thank you! so much for your insight into hexagram 52 as you have described it above. I have never quite heard it this way and it finally helps me to understand the answer to a question that I once put to the oracle.

Because of some of the work that I do, I have an interest in understanding the criminal mind and so I have on occasion consulted the oracle along these lines.

One major area of focus has been my study of psychopathy. When I put forth the question "what makes a sociopath such?" I have received hexagram 36 unchanging. This was simple enough to grasp (roughly, a form of self-defence). Yet, when I inquired as to the how and why this occurs, and received hexagram 52, I was puzzled. I couldn't figure out what "keeping still" and "meditation" might have to do with this. It just didn't make any sense that I could relate to. Until just now that is when you made the connection to defiance, arrogance and keeping everyone away. Ahhhaa!
happy.gif


I just wanted to step out and thank you for turning that light bulb on for me. Thank you.

Alexis
 

anita

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Just wondering whether the line could refer to repressing sexual desire, in which case the fan yao 23.3 - get rid of it makes more sense!

Best for your Quest
Anita
 

heylise

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Mmm, might very well be so. Certainly as an extra meaning, side by side with others.

Repressing desire, or repressing fears of it, or repressing its wrong uses, many possibilities.

LiSe
 

malka

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Well ...... I was once traveling in another city while visiting family ... was introduced to a man and accepted an invitation to have dinner with him one evening ... and we ended up kissing quite passionately. It was lovely but didn't go any further than kisses (but oh my, it certainly could have!) as there was a kind of unspoken agreement between us that it wouldn't be wise, considering that we live far away from each other. When the next day I asked Yi for insight about what had happened between us, I received line 52.3
 

cal val

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Malka...

Excellent story. Thank you. That's been my understanding of 52.3 for a very long time now. Suppression of sexual desire is not a good thing. It's bad for the heart. And modern medical science is just now getting around to proving it... *grin*

The ancient Chinese apparently were not afraid of their sexuality nor afraid to talk about it. It's all over the Yi. Check out 9.5... "pleasure shared is pleasure doubled." I got that in response to a question about a sexual encounter.

Love ya,

Val
 

hilary

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Chiming in the chorus here on 52,3. Being torn apart in the middle - desiring something, and either not allowing yourself to move towards it, or being prevented somehow. Horribly painful, danger of smothering the heart (maybe while you delude yourself you're being sensibly self-controlled). In other words, my encounters with this line so far have suggested something more painful than LiSe's - it's one of the few I'd run a long way to avoid.
 

Sparhawk

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Of course, any line interpretation rest very much upon the context of the question asked. In a recent question, I interpreted it as saying to discard brroding on a subject that is giving you anguish and take an objective look to what is bothering you and then act upon it. That if you keep anguishing about the problem, with no action, then the problem will master you.


L
 

Sra avalon

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Hello friends I have asked about an exam and it has shown me 52.3 and 52.5

How can I interpret it?
 

Trojina

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Hi, you just posted your query in Shared Readings section which is where to ask for help with readings. You posted it twice over there once in your language and once in English. Did you want a separate thread for each language? If not one can be deleted.
 

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