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23 optimism?

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bruce_g

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A recent comment from Luis (aka sparhawk), where he mentioned my view on 23 as being optimistic, got my wheels turning again on this hexagram. I don’t like fooling myself, not even with optimism or positive thinking. Not that those things are wrong necessarily, but you know what I mean. So anyway, I started paying closer attention to what is behind 23 once again. Might say I was stripping stripping.

I fished in a tournament this weekend, and after coming home and resting from nine long hours in the sun on the water, I began, as is my habit, to ready my fishing gear for the next trip out. When fishing line is exposed to water and the sun’s ultraviolet rays for extended periods, it becomes dry and brittle, and so it must be changed frequently. As I’m stripping line off the reel, I recall Luis’ comment, and begin to make connections to my psychology. Stripping off old line and rewinding on fresh line.

Maybe this is more 49 than 23, I thought. More like molting than stripping? Yes, perhaps, but it isn’t as though the line falls off by itself; it is in fact taken off. And then of course there is the refreshing feeling of reeling on fresh, limber and strong new line. Well, that’s a bit like 49: shedding old skin for new, etc. But the new line doesn’t appear by itself. Just as the old is literally stripped off, the new line is deliberately wound on. So it seems more like 23 to 24, and also like 41 to 42.

After this little contemplative experiment, I have concluded that Luis was correct, and even more so than he suggested: I am not only optimistic about 23, but about 41 as well. 23 brings 24, and 41 brings 42. Sorta gives meaning to “what is there to lose?”
 
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lightofreason

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The duality of 23 is in:

(a) the focus on stripping away the accumulated 'crap' to get back to the essentials (the light).
(b) the essential needs to be brought out since it is the last bastion against the collapse of all structure. (the emerging darkness)

The skeletal form, the basic infrastructure is covered by the description of 24:

000001
100001
--------
100000 - and so the generic 'vibe' of returning to 'something'.

The devotional element, as well as the darkness element, is in the bottom five lines. 23 PAIRS with 02, 02 is unconditional, 23 conditional (where the top line for any hexagram covers these LOCAL differences)

23 gets it source of nourishment, its 48-ness from:

000001
010011
---------
010010 - 29 IOW a focus on containment/control - this sense 'feeds' the 24/23 etc.
 
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bruce_g

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Interesting, Chris.

The "devotional element" rings an interior bell in me. Are you saying that it is devotion (kun) which empowers 23 to become 24?

I can see the connection with 48 being central to nourishing 23.

How do you separate devotion (2) from nourishment (48)?
 
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lightofreason

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bruce_g said:
Interesting, Chris.

The "devotional element" rings an interior bell in me. Are you saying that it is devotion (kun) which empowers 23 to become 24?

I can see the connection with 48 being central to nourishing 23.

How do you separate devotion (2) from nourishment (48)?

I think you are not used to working with the binary orderings. As we recurse yin/yang DOWN the page so the sequences emerge ACROSS the page. At the level of hexagrams we are dealing with 32 pairs - each pair has the same five lines, top one is different.

The first pair at the yin end of the sequence is of 02 and 23. They have emerged from the five line sequence of 00000. if we analyse the PAIR so we come up with the differences in top line that acts to differentiate the meanings where 02 is unconditional in its expression - be it devotion to another or darkness. 23 is conditional and so particular in focus.

The XOR material then applies all hexagrams to each, bringing out their connectivity across the sequence - the XOR method allows us to get the IC to describe itself.

The 27-ness covers the properties of 27 expressed through some hexagram. 27 covers the infrastructure of something, the focus on being qualitative about what we fill the infrastructure with.

Since hexagram 02 contains all potentials so XORing a hexagram with it will return the hexagram - 27 XOR 02 = 27.

For the PAIR of 02,23 we derive the PAIR of hexagrams describing by analogy their 27-ness and so 27 XOR 02 = 27 as 27 XOR 23 = 24.

Hexagram 48 represents the 'well' and more so as source of nourishment to aid in development - it sets a foundation upon which we start to build. XOR it with any hexagram and you get the description, by analogy, of the 48-ness of a hexagram.

Here we have:

48 XOR 02 = 48
48 XOR 23 = 29

IOW the source of nourishment of 23 is not 48, it is 29. We use the XOR-ing of 48 to derive the 29 where 29 is an analogy used to describe the 48-ness of 23.

The sense of PRUNING that is reflected in 23 is thus 'fed' by a focus on containment/control (which the priest etc is trying to do through pruning). Given the foundations so we build the infrastructure and THAT is described by XORing with 27. Thus the infrastructure follows on from the foundations and the unique meaning of a hexagram is sourced in the more generic meanings derived from XOR.

EACH hexagram serves as (a) a literal expression and (b) a source of analogy. This is a feature of using a finite set of symbols to represent 'all there is'.

There is a lot of material here but it is 'ignored' by most ;-) - but then there is a lot of work to still be done.

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

Chris.
 

Sparhawk

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See?! See?! I was right!! :D

Was that "Zen and the Art of Bass Fishing"?? :) Kidding aside, I like that take much better than other exposed before. Perhaps my contention with 23 is its immediateness. Stripping the scab off a wound is never pretty nor painless...

Oh my..., I'm starting to understand Chris... I hope THAT is a good omen... :)

L
 

frank_r

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hallo Bruce,

bruce_g said:
I am not only optimistic about 23, but about 41 as well. 23 brings 24, and 41 brings 42. Sorta gives meaning to “what is there to lose?”

I know the feeling getting 23, I also think Yes, something new in a deeper sense. Let the old go, even more than in 49. in 23 all the power is in the last line the line of the wise. Both the nucleur trigrams are 2 . So in that sense everything is earth, everything is done with the senses, no idea's everything is now. Feel the body, feel the now.

As a acupuncturist it has to do with your physical heart and I wrote something about it
;http://www.frankroosen.com/The time spirit.doc

Best wishes Frank
 
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bruce_g

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Chris, I’ll have to take the face value of what you say. I have no mind for method analysis, such as what seems to be your special gift. But I can see your connections in a general way. It’s not that I ignore it, it’s that I have almost impossible difficulty holding on to it.

Luis, interesting you pick up the Zen (and Dao) of fishing, as it’s very much my approach to it. Something I hardly dare mention to the guys in the club whom I fish with. A few times I’d mumble something to my team partner about the yin grassy slopes and the yang rocky banks merging, or where shallow and deep connect, but it’s usually met with a “what the f*** are you talking about?" over the shoulder glance, so I usually kept those concepts to myself, though they’ve served me well over the years in tournament standings. Being one with the fish.

Frank, wow, man, that’s a fascinating web page! I’m treated for CHF, and what you’ve written there I can intimately relate to, not only on a philosophical level but on an obviously detectable physical level. I’ve learned to recognize the symptoms and the emotional (heart) causes of their occurrence. After studying your page some more, I may email you with questions, if you don’t mind? Btw, it is indeed 23 which opens my heart, allowing the flow in and out of the heart to balance again: through letting go – stripping, as it were, the obstruction. And your connection with water makes complete sense. (Well, as far as I can understand it at this time.) Thanks for this. Actually, this helps me understand better what Chris is talking about.

Thanks, gents.
 

Trojina

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What with talk of 23 and fish this gives me an excuse to ask something i wanted to for some time. Yup its 23,5. What do you make of it Bruce ? Of all the translations i've used, in situations where I've had it I just don't really connect with the images of the court ladies and the string of fishes meaning to gaining favour, being helped etc I was going to wait till it came up somewhere else but here seems an opportune moment to ask.

In another thread I noticed Autumn interpreted 23,5 as something to do with 'civility' ? Autumn if your're reading this perhaps you would help me out also ?
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Trojan,

Some fish are community fish, and prefer to live together in schools. This is especially true of younger, smaller fish of a species. Fish are often associated with the yin principle in Yi. 23.5 makes reference to royalty or ruling class, which takes the lead; in effect leading the others as a school of graceful fish.

In practical application, I take this to mean that, all the elements (fish) follow the leader, and the leader is both gentle and wise. In human terms we'd call it refined - following our most refined instincts. The entire school benefits from this, and this can apply in external or purely internal ways.

That's how I see it anyway.
 

hilary

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Trojan, thank you for asking. I find that pesky fish-string tricky, too.

Thoughts - fish are a good thing to have; catching fresh fish is good fortune. So perhaps when you have dried fish strung together, they symbolise the good fortune you have stored up? And at this line there is only 'stripping' in the sense of redistribution - the string of fish as a gift. Maybe we're in the position of stripping's beneficiary?

The 'people of the house' (could be male or female) seem to me to be all the personal connections that bring good fortune and hold things together for us. And - just a personal association, this - the 'stringing together' seems to mean things starting to hang together coherently and make sense.
 
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bruce_g

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I hope to hear more on line 5. May have to 23 my old idea of it. Key word seems to be "string" rather than group or school.
 

heylise

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My take on it is this:
23.5 Not expecting others to see who you are, without making your intentions clear to them.
Its fanyao is 20.5 Seeing your own good and bad sides. For both one needs honesty, both are difficult.
The two, 20.5 and 23.5, make sense together.

For 23.5 A gift shows your good intentions, or respect, or lots of things. But it is also kind of humiliating, that you have to show something, instead of just being good enough yourself. If you know yourself who you are (20.5), then it is no problem. You realize that you cannot expect others, to see 'you' without making things clear.

LiSe
 

heylise

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Stripping yourself of your macho, pride, whatever. "A string of fish. Favor through the palace people. "
 

heylise

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Thinking.. what if there is nobody else, every line has a meaning in the world, but just as well a meaning inside yourself.

Maybe it works also the other way, when you don't have a string of fish to offer, and you lose your pride, you start to realize, that you got your pride through a string of fish, instead of through your own great character. And your pride changes, goes to other things. Instead of receiving it from the palace people, you live your own life, find your own pride, not the life others saw in you.

Both ways there will be harvest. Either from the palace people (your boss, partner, everyone you value as judge), or from yourself, "the people of the house".

LiSe
 
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bruce_g

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So then, fishes are offered as a sacrifice to ones higher authority.

hmm….

Not so different from following your most refined instincts after all.

An offering or sacrifice brings awareness of the uneaten fruit.
 

autumn

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trojan said:
In another thread I noticed Autumn interpreted 23,5 as something to do with 'civility' ? Autumn if your're reading this perhaps you would help me out also ?

In general, observing an enemy, or a hostile force, and hiding your true intentions through sophisticated, ingratiating social displays (court ladies, fish), and thus transforming the original open enmity, and turing it into an advantage for your side of the competition. People who kill you with kindness, or backstab with kindness, or take advantage of you in a way that you thank them for it.

When I made the comment you are referring to, I had an intuitive sense that she was being far too emotional with a person who was much more reserved and unattached to the relationship, and believed this line was telling her to become more socially aware of how she was expressing herself, and get some perspective (resulting hex 20), so I used the word, "civility" to try to express that idea.
 
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bruce_g

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Fisherman’s observation: fish follow without always understanding what it is they follow. Sometimes it’s the moon, sometimes it’s their belly, sometimes it’s oxygen, sometimes the call to spawn. And really, it’s all these things together. There’s no rational process they follow. When bass see a school of shad swim by, they chase and eat them. I doubt they think about it.

Sacrificing the rational (5) for the sake of living (6). If you eat the fruit, it dies. If you explain life, it stops living.
 

rosada

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Hmm..I'm not agreeing with the idea that 23.5 is only recommending a ploy. I'm thinking what's discribed here is a genuine change of perspective, maybe a situation where one finally gets close enough to the problem to understand it, and thus to be able to solve it."The surest way to vanquish an enemy is to turn him into a friend."
 
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bruce_g

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Watching The Wheels
John Lennon

People say I'm crazy doing what I'm doing
Well they give me all kinds of warnings to save me from ruin
When I say that I'm o.k. well they look at me kind of strange
Surely you're not happy now you no longer play the game

People say I'm lazy dreaming my life away
Well they give me all kinds of advice designed to enlighten me
When I tell them that I'm doing fine watching shadows on the wall
Don't you miss the big time boy you're no longer on the ball

I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go

Ah, people asking questions lost in confusion
Well I tell them there's no problem, only solutions
Well they shake their heads and they look at me as if I've lost my mind
I tell them there's no hurry
I'm just sitting here doing time

I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go
I just had to let it go
 

frank_r

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Hello Bruce

bruce_g said:
After studying your page some more, I may email you with questions, if you don’t mind? .

Of course I don't mind.

Frank R
 

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Bruce-
Death, decay, disintegration, deterioriation constitute almost exactly half of the activity in our healthiest forests - old growth ecosystems. This is the sustainable condition that humans don't like so much because it doesn't follow the growth for its own sake model of things.
23 means that the time has come for a thing to give back. It's a very good thing, even when the thing giving back don't want it to happen. It gets to lighten its load.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Brad,

That is also how I've regarded 23 for last three years or so, and I appreciate hearing your point of view on it. The forest is a wonderful example.

It isn't at all an easy or comfortable thing to lose something of yourself, and it’s even harder to make it into something new and living, but it is essential in order to go on living – really living. Loss is inevitable, and how loss is dealt with is quite easy to see, especially in old folks. Those who have clung to their old branches rather than allowing them to be pruned cleanly away, are closed up, stubborn and hard. Those who have let go of their losses have been transformed and renewed by their losses. These are those rare old birds who radiate this sort of amazing grace and strength.

This weekend I’ve had the great pleasure to hang around and lunch with three such gracious and strong old fisherman. I’m 61, so when I say old, I mean considerably older than me. People have different ideas of what it means to be called virtuous or a sage, but to me, these amazing old birds possessed sage attributes and qualities. They were strong and also kind. Their faces, though deeply weathered and wrinkled, were also like that of an infant, glowing and supple, and they smiled easily. They told stories, but I knew the tales merely scratched the surface of their experience. I wanted to know what they know, and I wanted to grow the way they grew: gracefully and strong.

This is why I’m optimistic about 23. What is the alternative?
 

rosada

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Just for fun, I thought I'd put your question to the I Ching, Bruce.

"This is why I’m optimistic about 23. What is the alternative?"

I received 7.4>40.

Now the IMAGE for 23 reads,
"Thus those above can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below."

The IMAGE for 7 reads,
"Thus the superior man increases his masses
By generousity toward the people."

:)
 

Trojina

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Thanks to all who have helped with 23,5. I am going to have to re read this thread. Theres something very elusive and slippery about the image of this line, its determined to get away from me, like a load of wriggling fish.
 
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bruce_g

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rosada said:
Just for fun, I thought I'd put your question to the I Ching, Bruce.

"This is why I’m optimistic about 23. What is the alternative?"

I received 7.4>40.

Now the IMAGE for 23 reads,
"Thus those above can ensure their position
Only by giving generously to those below."

The IMAGE for 7 reads,
"Thus the superior man increases his masses
By generousity toward the people."

:)

Great! Now, what's your interpretation? :mischief:
 
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bruce_g

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Trojan, I know what you mean, and agree. A meaning has to *click* with something inside before I can be at rest with it. Explanations may help, but it's not until the light pops, that "ah ha!" moment, that I can be at ease with it. Later that may change, and then the old meaning gets stripped to find the cleaner, clearer meaning. But once an image has clicked, it usually still relates to the new growth of understanding. There’s always something new to learn, and new understanding grows out from the old trunk.

Rosada, kickin’ your reading around in my head. The army retreats. The army of life forces (chi?) withdraws from the organism. 40, hmm… not sure.
 

rosada

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I was thinking first that the I Ching is saying "There is no alternative! The only way you can keep going, keep growing, is to share, give something back, pass on what you've learned." Then your noting that 7.4 could represent the life force withdrawing suggests that even so, even while we try to be very good about releasing and recycling still the life force withdraws, but there is still something else one can try to avoid being a dried up old stick:
40. The superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds.

Now there's a great way to stay young!
 
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bruce_g

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rosada said:
I was thinking first that the I Ching is saying "There is no alternative! The only way you can keep going, keep growing, is to share, give something back, pass on what you've learned." Then your noting that 7.4 could represent the life force withdrawing suggests that even so, even while we try to be very good about releasing and recycling still the life force withdraws, but there is still something else one can try to avoid being a dried up old stick:
40. The superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds.

Now there's a great way to stay young!

Yes :) it is. But the question was about the alternative to being optimistic about 23. Pardoning mistakes and forgiving misdeeds sounds like the positive way to deal with 23, not the alternative. Death, on the other hand, can be very kind to one who can not forgive or renew.
 

rosada

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Maybe not necessarily kind. Maybe just, "The alternative is death."
 

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