a place to work

mollies · Oct 13, 2006

A good friend of mine, she is an artist, is going to move from city to the countryside. She still has a houseboat in the city which she was planning to sell. But today she suggested to keep it, for herself and her work, and there would be enough room for me too, since I have too little room myself for woodcarving and bookbinding. So I do have an interest in this whole project...
She asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2.

Is there anybody who can help with this answer?

Thanks, if you would try...

Carin

willowfox · Oct 13, 2006

But today she suggested to keep it, she asked the I Ching if it would be a good idea to do so.
And she got 62. Two moving lines: 1, and 2.

Hex 62.1 says not to fly, stay in the nest, ie she should not sell the house boat but she should keep it.

Hex 62.2 says for her not to over reach, to show self restraint, again an indication not to sell. It also suggests that you and her should stay together on the boat, female meets with female.

Hex 34 says that she should avoid any action that upsets her peace and harmony and she should not go down the wrong road in this situation. If she wants to sell then she should think very carefully and wait for a much better time.

Therefore, her answer here is to keep the house boat for the foreseeable future, selling it would not be a good idea. Line two suggests that the two of you can stay together or at least get on well together. The only thing that I can see here is that she maybe has some financial problems, what do you think?

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

I see 62.1 as a general indication of something going wrong. The flying bird is an omen of misfortune. 62.2 is about looking too high up to get help for solving a problem, as it can be solved with someone or something simpler.

Hexagram 62 is in my view about there being too little of something. Hexagram 34 is about forcing things.

So keeping the houseboat is a way of forcing things, while there is too little, which is not a good idea. Perhaps it is too expensive to keep the boat, while the problems it solves, like providing extra space, can be solved in easier ways.

willowfox · Oct 13, 2006

Hex 62.1 "to go above means insubordination, but to go below means obedience", therefore to advance (sell the houseboat) would bring misfortune. "if the flying bird has no place to rest its feet that would be inauspicious", again suggesting that she should not sell the houseboat. This hex suggests not to take to the air, ie stay grounded (think before she leaps) or in this case remain in the water. Flying suggests flyers, leaflets, advertising, in the air (advertising on the internet).

Hex 62.2 "he does not go as far as his sovereign but does meet his minister, so there is no blame". She does not over reach herself by trying to sell the houseboat, she is limited in what she can realistically achieve. Trying to sell the boat would mean going beyond what she is normally capable of doing. She cannot reach the sovereign, the potential buyer, she has to make do with a smaller course of action here, and that would be to keep the houseboat and either rent it out or use it as a base when in the city.

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

Willowfox - There is no "if" in 62.1, there is misfortune anyway, in the situation that is consulted about.

The technical details:
In my view Wilhelm didn't translate this correctly from the original Chinese. The bird is a "flying bird" and the causal relationship suggested by the Chinese character that Wilhelm translated with "through," is between the "misfortune" and the "flying bird," not between the "bird" and it's "flying." The bird is indicating good fortune flying away. I suppose Wilhelm wasn't aware of the behavior of birds being taken as omens.

willowfox · Oct 13, 2006

Perhaps Hex 62.1 does not use the word "if" but rather the word "when".

I suppose Wilhelm wasn't aware of the behavior of birds being taken as omens.

I would truly believe that Wilhelm, after living in China for a great many years, would certainly know many of the Chinese omens, including the ones about birds. Some bird omens are extremely unfortunate, as you may well know. Some birds are classed as lucky while some birds are the opposite, such as the death bird, which comes a calling when somebody is about to die. This is an asian bird, probably its equivalent in the west would be a crow/raven.

"The bird is indicating good fortune flying away".

Very sorry but I completely disagree with your statement. Nowhere is the text suggesting good fortune if the bird takes it into his/her head to fly away.

Every book states that the "flying bird" in hex 62.1 will bring misfortune upon itself by taking that action. Leaving the nest before it is ready to take on the world, business deal, selling of a boat or whatever. I believe this line is telling her not to try to do anything new/out of the ordinary, such as selling a boat. There will be dangers involved if she proceeds, probably financial, as well as legal hassles and expenses. So she should stay with the boat until she is in a much stronger position.

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

Though my translating of the Zhouyi, and comparing various translations, I have seen that similarity between various translations is in no way indicative of correctness. When things are unclear, Wilhelm's example is there, and it is taken as such. Whether he left out characters from translating, had a weird interpunction, added words that aren't there in the original Chinese, or was inconsequential, I've seen it all repeated elsewhere.

The same combination of Chinese characters, "flying bird" is there in 62.0 and 62.6. In 62.0, the "flying bird" "leaves a message," in 62.6 the "flying bird" "leaves him." Both times, the verbs indicate that "flying bird" is one concept, so it is likely to be one concept in 62.1 as well, "to fly" is not the verb of this sentence.

In 62.6, how can a flying bird leaving be inauspicious? Only if it is an omen. In 62.0, how can a flying bird leave a message? Dito. So in 62.1 the flying bird is an omen as well. An inauspicious one.

I'm explaining the inauspiciousness of the omen by saying that the good fortune is flying away. That's not in the text, but it's a good explanation.

mollies · Oct 13, 2006

willowfox said:
Therefore, her answer here is to keep the house boat for the foreseeable future, selling it would not be a good idea. Line two suggests that the two of you can stay together or at least get on well together. The only thing that I can see here is that she maybe has some financial problems, what do you think?

Hi Willowfox,

The financial problem she really has, is that she spends money when she has it...
She was able to buy the houseboat because of an inheritance, and she let her son and his young family live there for some years. Now they have moved away.
So selling the houseboat would mean, getting money for it and being able to spend it. In two years it might all be gone. And I would pay her a (small) monthly rent, but enough for the maintainance of the boat.

Interesting, how you and Ewald have different views.I keep thinking, what could the mistake be, if Ewald is right? Your interpretation seems closer, though.

Anyway, thanks both of you and Trojan. And I'm still in for other interpretations.

Carin

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

Trojan - as long as you don't ask of me to change my interpretation because Wilhelm has it different, it's fine with me. I've usually spent quite some time and effort to ponder the meaning of a line.

If 62.1 was about a young bird that shouldn't fly out of it's nest, in the Chinese there would have been some text about this being a "little" bird, and there would have been a character for "nest." These are words that are elsewhere in the Yi. As they aren't there, I don't believe that this is the situation.

willowfox · Oct 13, 2006

I forgot to mention earlier but there seems to also be a problem with the value of the houseboat. Is her asking price too high, because I feel that it is not worth as much as she thinks it is. Did she pay too much for it in the first place?

"I'm explaining the inauspiciousness of the omen by saying that the good fortune is flying away. That's not in the text, but it's a good explanation".

Sorry but I see it as inauspicious to fly away, to leave home before one is properly prepared to do so. Would you let your young child leave home without the proper preparations? If you said yes and let and let your chid go then I am sure that your child would end up in a great deal of trouble/dead. This line reminds me of what can happen to runaway children.

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

Willowfox - Like I said, there is nothing in 62.1 about a young child, a young bird or leaving (in 62.6 there is talk about leaving, by the flying bird).

Of course you can think of all kinds of stories that have elements of a flying bird and misfortune. That it flies, can make you think it is flying away, but that is not in the text. It might be flying by, or be flying as opposed to sitting around. It might even be flying to drop that message from 62.0. Fact is, there is only a flying bird and some unclear causal relationship with misfortune in those four characters of Chinese of 62.1.

Trojina · Oct 13, 2006

ewald said:
Trojan - as long as you don't ask of me to change my interpretation because Wilhelm has it different, it's fine with me. I've usually spent quite some time and effort to ponder the meaning of a line.

.

You must have read my post quick as I deleted it shortly after posting, cos I wanted to think some more.

I'm no slave to Wilhelm btw but what I was getting at in my original post is many people have used Wilhelm from years ago, when there wasn't much else around, and through him, plus their own experience have almost welded together their understanding of the Yi for their own practical divination purposes. This site comes along, more books, more information and our understanding changes and grows but on the whole I find these new angles, new understandings don't radically undo all i understood about a hexagram or a line, they just add to it, modify it, clarify it.

You say above you have usually spent quite some time pondering a line , I would like to ask you is this in relation to your experience of that line or purely your academic study ?
Most of us here have spent very much time pondering the meaning of a line also and how it has worked in our lives.

I ask because I often find your interpretations often do tend to go against all my previous understanding of a hexagram or line, and indeed other interpretations. Here for instance you say hexagram 62 is about having 'too little' ? Well possibly maybe on occasion depending on the question but overall I generally see 62 as advise to keep within your means to keep it small and attend to detail.

Trojina · Oct 13, 2006

Have re read the thread and if I interpret the answer in the context of the question which was how would it be if the boat is NOT sold - then I would have to take it as you overstep your limits in some way if you don't sell the boat but i quite like the look of line two and Willowfox idea that it represents the two of you women on the boat - and 34 is pretty dynamic, the pair of you can get alot done. Hmm actually I think I do see 62,2 as pretty favourable here. I think of 62 as above all a practical hexagram, how to make things work within the means one has - I see line 2 as saying this works, its within your range of what is useful and available even if different from an original grander plan.

If it was my reading I think I'd want to consult again with a slightly different angle because its not that definate.

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

trojan said:
You say above you have usually spent quite some time pondering a line , I would like to ask you is this in relation to your experience of that line or purely your academic study ?

That is pondering the translation and meaning of a line from the Chinese, and how it works out in the readings of me and those in this forum. I don't have decades of experience with the Yi. After a couple of years of working with it, at first just Wilhelm's text, than other texts as well, I decided to start working on getting the meanings clear.

I was frustrated with the overall lack of clarity of what the lines mean, and as you can attest, to that later came a frustration with the lack of accurateness of existing translations and particularly Wilhelm's. This has made me suspicious of anything people have written, and with what people say that particular lines mean. I haven't really thrown everything out of the window, but I do want to make sure that I have re-examined everything several times before I commit to a particular interpretation. This forum is for me a way to get confronted with different views, and for seeing how real readings work out, so as to get different angles for re-examining.

I'm still in the process of refining the accurateness of my translation. Trojan, your comment that you don't think that 62 is about things being too little is an interesting one, and I'm in the process of re-examining this, together with 28. I find that the hexagram names of these two are hard to translate adequately. In Richard Smith's list, I haven't seen a single translation for these that I find even a little convincing. I currently have "Too Much" and "Too Little", but I'm not sure enough of them.

willowfox · Oct 13, 2006

Another text says, "to be a flying bird here would mean misfortune".

Again and again, I take this to mean for her to stay still and keep the houseboat.

I am sorry but I trust Wilhelm, Lynn, Jou, Tsung Hwa, Balkin, Blofeld etc.. Therefore what makes your understanding of Chinese so different from those scholars?

jesed · Oct 13, 2006

Hi carin

Before giving my comment, I would like to ask you 2 questionf for clarification:

1.- Is it a "qualification of an idea" (I mean, something like.. is this proyect a good idea?) or a "prospection of development" (it would be an OK outcome if I undertake X?)

2.- And what idea is?
a) Your friend's idea to move countryside?
b) Your friend's idea to not sell the houseboat?
c) Your friend's idea to invite you to live with her in the houseboat?

Best wishes

ewald · Oct 13, 2006

willowfox said:
Another text says, "to be a flying bird here would mean misfortune".

The four Chinese characters have these meanings:
飛 - fly, leap, in the air / go quickly, rapidly / go far away, cross over, far / scatter apart, separate
鳥 - bird
以 - by means of, through, by, with / because of, according to / in order to, so as to / regard as, use as, take as, consider as / giving cause
凶 - inauspicious, unlucky, bad luck, of ill omen, evil

[Edited]
The "to be" part sounds a bit weird to me, and I'm not quite sure whether that can be there without a Chinese character accounting for it, but appart from that it sounds like a valid translation. "Would mean" is something like "regard as, use as, take as, consider as" (which I missed in an earlier analysis). It however doesn't seem to acknowledge that the other two sentences about the flying bird take it to be an omen.

willowfox said:
I am sorry but I trust Wilhelm, Lynn, Jou, Tsung Hwa, Balkin, Blofeld etc.. Therefore what makes your understanding of Chinese so different from those scholars?

Sure, you are free to trust them, and ignore the reasons that I did give (and they didn't) for why I translate 62.1 this way.

Differences in understanding can come from using more modern dictionaries by me. A distinctive factor is that I'm using web and database technology that I made myself to very quickly check dictionary meanings and contexts, and have quick access to notes. Other reasons are that I, based on my psychological and spiritual knowledge, have reasons to reject several Confucian reinterpretations of the Zhouyi text. Also, I don't bother with line calculations (correctness of lines based on yin/yang), and trust the original Zhouyi text most. The original Zhouyi text is where the real work was done.

mollies · Oct 14, 2006

jesed said:
1.- Is it a "qualification of an idea" (I mean, something like.. is this proyect a good idea?) or a "prospection of development" (it would be an OK outcome if I undertake X?)

2.- And what idea is?
a) Your friend's idea to move countryside?
b) Your friend's idea to not sell the houseboat?
c) Your friend's idea to invite you to live with her in the houseboat?

Well, if you ask it like this, I see that I must explain some more about the situation.

She and her man have bought a (not so very big) house in the countryside, to live there.
They wish to have a garden, more quietness, nature around, a more simple life.
It is quite new, never done this before, so it feels like a big adventure: "we feel we want this, but not sure what will happen to us. It is an experiment."

They have sold their (big) house in the city.
She still owns a houseboat there. It is empty now, and could be sold, but could also be rented. So if she keeps it, it offers
A. a kind of base when she is in the city (not too far away)
B. a large room for her to paint and work, since the new house (they are moving there in december) is rather small
C. a place to work for me as well, (we are friends)
D. the not-having-to-sell-yet

If she sells, it offers:
A. money, which is nice,
B. no more worry about the maintainance etc
C. the possibility to plunge totally in the country-life, including the ups and downs
D. indeed a more simple life,

So I will not live there, and neither will she.
I live on my own houseboat....5 minutes away from hers.
And I would be very pleased to have a place to work, a studio, and so does she.

My friends question was:"Is it a good idea to keep the boat and make it a workshop"

Hope it is more clear now?

Carin

jesed · Oct 14, 2006

Yes Carin, thanks you for the clarification.

Actually, I needed only this: "Is it a good idea to keep the boat and make it a workshop"

So is a qualification of an idea, and the idea is to make the houseboat a workshop

In one phrase: this is a good idea, even when others couls see it a little wire, IF your friend keeps extra care with small details.

Best wishes

ewald · Oct 14, 2006

trojan said:
Here for instance you say hexagram 62 is about having 'too little' ? Well possibly maybe on occasion depending on the question but overall I generally see 62 as advise to keep within your means to keep it small and attend to detail.

Having pondered this a while, I think that this "too little" is a bit too little as a description of the general situation in 62. I still think that something must be too little in 62, though I don't find it easy to put my finger on what exactly that is. At the moment I'm leaning towards that the potential to get what one needs is too little, or at least little. One is not going to get it entirely.

62.0 - Only small things of what one needs are possible
62.1 - Not possible to get what one needs
62.2 - Not a radical way, but a simple way to get what one needs
62.3 - Protecting against harm and losing what one needs
62.4 - Facing danger to get what one needs
62.5 - Seeking alternatives to get what one needs
62.6 - Not getting what one needs at all

I think it is important to distinguish between advice and a description of the situation. Trojan, what you describe here as how you see 62 is only about what kind of advice is there. As I see it, that is not a description of the situation or the theme of the hexagram. I'd be interested to hear what you think that is.

bruce_g · Oct 14, 2006

There was an online translation/interpretation I’d use about 6 years ago. Didn’t like it very much, but it did spark some ideas about certain hexagrams that I hadn’t considered before. 62 was one of them. The theme had to do with working on details: the specifics which make up a whole. I still find that useful. Small things are not less significant than big things, any more than a wheel is less significant than the cart.

ewald · Oct 14, 2006

Bruce - I can see working on details for 62.0, but the question in this thread was about either selling or renting the houseboat, which isn't a detail thing, in my view. In 62.4 one is facing danger, I don't think that's about details too, and in 62.5 the duke is hunting for food, which isn't either. I think the general theme of hexagram 62 is something else.

bruce_g · Oct 14, 2006

ewald said:
Bruce - I can see working on details for 62.0, but the question in this thread was about either selling or renting the houseboat, which isn't a detail thing, in my view. In 62.4 one is facing danger, I don't think that's about details too, and in 62.5 the duke is hunting for food, which isn't either. I think the general theme of hexagram 62 is something else.

Oh I dunno, working on details may fit. Gathering more information, looking more closely at the real estate and rental value of such live-in boats, becoming more aware of available properties, alternatives and such. These are all details which can be helpful to reaching a wise and informed decision for Carin’s friend. From Carin's description, she sounds a bit impulsive and not very frugal. Economy is very much a part of 62.

ewald · Oct 14, 2006

bruce_g said:
Gathering more information, looking more closely at the real estate and rental value of such live-in boats, becoming more aware of available properties, alternatives and such.

Gathering information, looking into, becoming aware - sounds like hex. 20 to me.

bruce_g · Oct 14, 2006

ewald said:
Gathering information, looking into, becoming aware - sounds like hex. 20 to me.

In general, I read Carin's friend's reading as saying "not now", not until you have more information, a sound plan for what to do with the boat money if it's sold, not to follow impulses which exceed practical function, to be content with what you have for now.

Which I think is pretty much what Willowfox has said.

ewald · Oct 14, 2006

However, Carin's friend's question was not about selling, but about keeping the houseboat and renting it. Sure the other option was selling, but I suspect that a separate reading was done for that option.

With a situation like selling or renting real-estate all kinds of hexagrams can apply. Here it was 62, but while contemplating several options hex. 20 may apply (this is what you were talking about). The "not now" fits fine with 20.0: "The ablution has been made, But not yet the offering." While waiting for the answer of someone else to a proposal, hex. 5 may apply. Etc.

I am looking for a general theme of hexagram 62 here, which is something different. I want something that applies to all lines in 62, and includes an appropriate translation of the hexagram name.

bruce_g · Oct 14, 2006

ewald said:
However, Carin's friend's question was not about selling, but about keeping the houseboat and renting it. Sure the other option was selling, but I suspect that a separate reading was done for that option.

With a situation like selling or renting real-estate all kinds of hexagrams can apply. Here it was 62, but while contemplating several options hex. 20 may apply (this is what you were talking about). The "not now" fits fine with 20.0: "The ablution has been made, But not yet the offering." While waiting for the answer of someone else to a proposal, hex. 5 may apply. Etc.

I am looking for a general theme of hexagram 62 here, which is something different.

Given the more or less 'should I keep the boat' question, I think we're saying the same thing, if I understand your answer correctly. You're saying "yes, it is good to stay", and Willowfox and I are saying "no, it is not good to move at this time".

Do you agree?

ewald · Oct 14, 2006

No, I think 62.2 is saying that the first radical option (selling the boat) is not taken, and the simpler option, renting the boat, is. 62.1 is in my view saying that there may be an indication of something going wrong. I admit that it's not clear to me, but like I extensively explained, I don't agree with Willowfox's and Wilhelm's idea about the meaning of it.

Anyway, my question was about a general theme of 62. An individual reading is not general.

What I want is being able to say: "62 is about .. .."
I want to do that similarly to "Hexagram 5 is about waiting," and "Hexagram 20 is about examining."

What seems incorrect is: "Hexagram 62 is about dealing with details." Like I said, there are several lines (see above) that that doesn't fit with. It also doesn't seem to fit with any of the hexagram names I have seen for 62:

- Small and beyond the ordinary
- Passing: Minor
- Small gets by
- Little Exceeding
- Small Surpassing
- Minor Superiority
- Preponderance of the Small
- Small Exceeding
- To Overstep Slightly/Lesser Top-Heaviness
- Small Fault
- Smallness in excess
- Small excesses
- Minor Mistakes
- Beyond the Small Pass
- Too Little

jesed · Oct 14, 2006

bruce_g said:
Given the more or less 'should I keep the boat' question, I think we're saying the same thing, if I understand your answer correctly. You're saying "yes, it is good to stay", and Willowfox and I are saying "no, it is not good to move at this time".

Hi Bruce... the theme of details and economy is important in 62, indeed. Even more, 62 points (in the tradition Wilhelm followed) to an extraordinary situation, and because the situation is extraordinary, we need extra atention to details. More than the "normal" atention, even if others could think than we are acting with exageration, or "wire"

That's why I wrote: "this is a good idea, even when others couls see it a little wire, IF your friend keeps extra care with small details."

In this, you and I are saying somehing similar. The answer is not a definitive yes or no, good or bad. But... "good IF you"....

More than "this is good or bad idea", is like: "this are the conditions that would allow this idea be a good idea"

Best wishes

jesed · Oct 14, 2006

Hi Ewald

Do you really cann't see "Detail" as something "too little".

Wow, then seems like your scope is "to little"

Best wishes

a place to work

visitor

Inactive

visitor

Inactive

visitor

Inactive

visitor

visitor

visitor

Inactive

visitor

Supporter

Supporter

visitor

Inactive

jesed

Guest

visitor

visitor

jesed

Guest

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

bruce_g

Guest

visitor

jesed

Guest

jesed

Guest