hexagram 21 lines 4 and 5 becoming hexagram 42 please help!

sparkler · Nov 10, 2006

I asked the i ching if i should end my very challenging relationship with my boyfriend and the answer i got was hexagram 21 lines 4 and 5 changing to hexagram 42. Can anyone help with the correct interpretation of this please? I would be most grateful.

vincent · Nov 10, 2006

Hi Sparkler, can't resist to reply on this mail. Yesterday I asked the I Ching what the effect on me would be if I would do something alone (instead of asking for help from others). I got exactly the same answer

!! It's very strange to see exactly the same hex and moving lines a day later (ok..different context). I concluded from the answer that it would be OK to do it alone. It will not be easy in the beginning, but the outcome will be OK (hex42).

Wrt your question the answer is harder to understand (at least for me). If you would have asked "what would be the effect on me if I break up with my boyfriend?" I would say it would be a clear "Do it". However, you asked if you should break up. It's also possible now to read that you should deal with things happening, but that it will will get better afterwards.
I wonder what the reactions of the more experienced on this forum will be.

GoodLuck with whatever you decide,

Vincent

willowfox · Nov 10, 2006

"I asked the i ching if i should end my very challenging relationship with my boyfriend and the answer i got was hexagram 21 lines 4 and 5 changing to hexagram 42."

Hex 21.4 if you persevere and are strong enough, and put up with all the problems in this relationship then you can keep it going, but it ain't going to be fantastic. If you work on him continuously you may just win here.

Hex 21.5 you know the problems that are associated with this relationship, you know that changes are necessary but you are not sure what to do for the best, you must decide, think it through and then take action. I suppose if you ride the storm then the relationship will rumble along but is that what you truly want?

Hex 42 if you are still with him then the relationship gets better, and the problems recede. It will be like a flower blossoming but it does not last. After a while it all goes down hill once again, if you can get him to completely change his ways then the relationship has a chance of survival, if it goes back to the original rock and roll that you have now, then that's it and soon.

You know what you now have and you see what is coming, so it's not hard to make the right decision. It is time to make or break, which box would you like to open? You know the answer, so do it.

vincent · Nov 10, 2006

Ok, I am member for only a few hours and this is my second post, but still I want to play the devils advocate here.. I know it's risky

willowfox said:
Hex 42 if you are still with him then the relationship gets better, and the problems recede. It will be like a flower blossoming but it does not last. After a while it all goes down hill once again, if you can get him to completely change his ways then the relationship has a chance of survival, if it goes back to the original rock and roll that you have now, then that's it and soon.

Why is 42 refering to still being together? Maybe Sparklers life becomes much easier if she decides to leave her boyfriend. Hex 21, biting through, is also about doing justice (to yourself?) which could mean finishing what's wrong.
Maybe it would be better to ask two questions. 1) what will happen if I stay with him?, and 2) what will happen if I don't stay with him?

hilary · Nov 10, 2006

Welcome, Vincent, and thanks for being devil's advocate!

Sparkler asks, 'Should I...?'
Willowfox thinks Yi is answering as if you'd asked, 'What should I do?'
But it also seems possible that Yi would answer as if you'd asked, 'What if I did?'

In other words, this might be a picture of the effects and significance for you of breaking up, or it might be more general relationship advice. I'd be inclined to read it as a 'What if...' scenario, which seems to be saying that breaking it off (instead of making do) is a positive, decisive thing to do: you bite through some very old 'stuff' and discover something of great value (maybe within yourself).

If this leaves you confused, then Vincent's suggested questions would help. You might only want or need to ask #2, since you already know what staying with him is like.

dobro p · Nov 10, 2006

"I asked the i ching if i should end my very challenging relationship with my boyfriend and the answer i got was hexagram 21 lines 4 and 5 changing to hexagram 42."

Hex 21's about busting through some sort of resistance or wrongdoing. Hex 42's about augmenting or putting more into the situation. Now, I don't know enough about the situation to be very useful here, but one of two situations seems to be imaged in the Yi's response to your question:

* Possibility one: the Yi's saying something like: "There's some issue that you absolutely have to bite through here, and this will represent a real increase of value or knowledge or being for you."

* Possibility two: the Yi's saying something like: "By biting through this relationship (cuz it's fundamentally flawed) you will be increased rather than diminished."

So, what's the Yi telling you to bite through here? An issue in the relationship, or the whole relationship? What's your gut feeling?

willowfox · Nov 11, 2006

Hi vincent

If sparkler makes up her mind, hex 21.5, and leaves the guy, then the advice given by hex 42 will not apply to the relationship because it does not exist anymore.

But if sparkler tries to make a further go of the relationship, hex 21.4,5, persevering in the face of danger, then hex 42 will be the next step in the relationship.

So, when I said if she was still with him, hex 42, I am not sure if it will be over before hex 42 starts its action. It seems that a breaking point is coming soon for this relationship, it cannot carry on in the way it has up until now. The guy has to seriously change his attitude, mood etc. Whether sparkler can wear him down is doubtful because she has been unable to do it to date, therefore future success does not look good.

Biting through his shell to find a warm and understanding human being or biting through this relationship to find something better elsewhere. She is the yin, the soft one trying to clamp down on the strong one, the boyfriend, but if he does not see her point of view then she must punish him. The thing is can she make that decision without going weak at the knees, and therefore carrying on with this relationship that has become a form of punishment for her.

"Hilary said,
Sparkler asks, 'Should I...?'
Willowfox thinks Yi is answering as if you'd asked, 'What should I do?'
But it also seems possible that Yi would answer as if you'd asked, 'What if I did?'

When sparkler said "should I..? I believe that the idea of calling it a day is well and truly in her thoughts.

dobro p · Nov 11, 2006

"The thing is can she make that decision without going weak at the knees, and therefore carrying on with this relationship that has become a form of punishment for her."

And the Yi mentions something else as well that might offer some meager confidence in a situation like this. Right? Vincent saw it in a good way.

willowfox · Nov 11, 2006

" Maybe Sparklers life becomes much easier if she decides to leave her boyfriend. Hex 21, biting through, is also about doing justice (to yourself?) which could mean finishing what's wrong."

Sparklers life will become easier if she leaves him and in doing so brings justice to herself for a relationship that was either wrong from the start or went wrong later .

But, again, will she be strong enough to make that decision or will she be too soft on the guy and persevere in this relationship, hoping that that it will get better. If she perseveres with it, tells him the story, he may just slow down enough for the theme of hex 42 to come into play, but it does not last and soon his old habits resurface again, perhaps worse than now. So in the short term cut, in the long term, some good times and then back to the past, then cut.

dobro p · Nov 11, 2006

Well, I was thinking of justice being rendered, for sure - although I think it could be rendered in various ways in this situation. I think Vincent's really expressed it well, giving the idea but not specifying the form it must take. I really like the sound of 'doing justice (to yourself?)' - it leaves the application of the interpretation up to the inspiration and intuition of the querent. I love it when that happens. How about you? Yeah, I know you like people knowing what your take on questions and answers is, but do you also like it when the querent comes up with an interpretation or application all on their own, without being fed the idea directly by somebody here?

willowfox · Nov 11, 2006

Well, of course, if the person figures out the solution by themselves that is fine, but so many people in life have a hard time reaching a fortunate decision, so they need help/advice/answers, so I don't see any problem with that.

dobro p · Nov 11, 2006

"Well, of course, if the person figures out the solution by themselves that is fine"

My take on it is that it's better than 'fine' - it's 'so fine'. Nothing better.

But you're right about people needing help sometimes. That's where the Yi comes in. But as for you and me and the other interpreters, I think our style is best for querents when the reading's a nudge, rather than spelled out in detail.

But here's me spelling it out in detail to you lol. I've done it before too. But just cuz I'm guilty of it doesn't mean it's not a wonderful ideal or direction or standard. I think we can learn how to realize it as well. If you can read a symbol, you can learn how to interpret with a nudge. I've tried both approaches - the nudge and the slap upside the head - the nudge works better in my experience. As a rule of thumb. Nudge. lol

hilary · Nov 11, 2006

willowfox said:
When sparkler said "should I..? I believe that the idea of calling it a day is well and truly in her thoughts. http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=41855

Yes, that's what I think, too - which is why I habitually read answers to 'Should I [make this big change]?' as answers to 'What'd it mean for me if I did?' - unless something different really leaps off the page at me.

Sparkler, I hope you're still reading and will post to let us know how you're getting on, before we (/I) go off on too many tangents here about general principles of divination. Please feel free to nudge us back on topic any time.

sparkler · Nov 11, 2006

hi all... thanks, you have given me lots to think about and thanks for your thoughts on the meaning of this...you have given me lots to think about...perhaps i could have worded the question differently to lessen the chance of an ambiguous answer... i took the answer to mean that yes, this will be a challenging relationship but that if i stick it out eventually things will improve...i will ask the I Ching as has been suggested,"what would it be like if i did end the relationship"...or can anyone suggest a more effective question for this situation...i am afraid this relationship has been a very challenging one...my boyfriend is often uncommunicative for days...often does not answer my calls...then suddenly reappears as if nothing has happened...this in turn makes me annoyed and therefore we often have arguments...although we do have happy periods were we do seem to communicate they do not last long...when i have challenged him he says he finds it hard to trust...i have asked him if he is seeing other women but he says he is not...it is so confusing...he seems so ambivalent about me...although he has told me a number of times that he loves me...we have been seeing each other for nine months now and it is very frustrating...would be grateful for any suggestions for how i could word a question on this to the I Ching... many thanks, Sparkler

vincent · Nov 11, 2006

sparkler said:
...i will ask the I Ching as has been suggested,"what would it be like if i did end the relationship"...or can anyone suggest a more effective question for this situation...

The question looks O.K. to me. Sometimes I make it a question about a certain period, like "what would be the effect on me the coming six months if I.......?"

Good Luck

sparkler · Nov 12, 2006

hi all, i asked the I Ching, "what will be the outcome if i stay in this relationship?"...the answer i got was hexagram 11 lines 2 and 3 changing to hexagram 24...any thoughts on this please? It seems a bit of a contrast to hexagram 21.

willowfox · Nov 12, 2006

"i asked the I Ching, "what will be the outcome if i stay in this relationship?"...the answer i got was hexagram 11 lines 2 and 3 changing to hexagram 24."

Hex 11.2 is about putting up with uncultured people, the rough and ready, your boyfriend, in a gentle and passive way, trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Hex 11.3 expect a very bumpy time in this relationship, it will not be a smooth journey, your good luck is running out fast here.

Hex 24 return/turning point, return to a former state, being single, the time of darkness will end(the relationship). The old is discarded and the new is introduced, being single allows you freedom of movement and many friends can come and go, therefore a time of joy. This hex indicates the end of November.

dobro p · Nov 12, 2006

sparkler said:
hi all, i asked the I Ching, "what will be the outcome if i stay in this relationship?"...the answer i got was hexagram 11 lines 2 and 3 changing to hexagram 24...any thoughts on this please? It seems a bit of a contrast to hexagram 21.

Well, you got a very different response because you asked a very different question. Your first question was about ending the relationship, so the Yi responded with Hex 21 to deal with that issue - very appropriate, I thought.

Now, you're asking about staying in the relationship - a completely different scenario - so the Yi responds with a completely different image. The image which is appropriate to your idea of staying in the relationship is 11.2.3>24. I think the two active lines are really interesting in the context of your question, but I'll focus on just 11>24 for the time being. The Yi's saying something like: "Well, now that you're asking about *staying* in the relationship, the situation's like this: heaven communicates itself to earth in a way that brings you back to where you belong."

So, ending the relationship means biting through something that needs to be bitten or chewed through (that could be something in you or it could be something in the relationship); staying in the relationship means a very gracious flow or communication or energy that brings you back to where you belong. Which would you prefer?

sparkler · Nov 12, 2006

thanks for that willowfox...anyone else have any ideas on the interpretation of this?

sparkler · Nov 12, 2006

oh and thanks to you too dobro

dobro p · Nov 12, 2006

By the way, I think you have to take Willowfox's reading pretty seriously too. Not the bluntness, not the negativity, not the avoidance of the main meaning of Hex 11 - but there's a possibility that her reading of 11.2 and 11.3 applies here - those two lines could be interpreted as saying something like: "If you stay in the relationship, you'll just end up leaving him behind, although that'll mean some ups and downs, and then you'll be back where you were before you got involved with the guy."

The reason I put a more positive spin on it is cuz overall, Hex 11 is a really positive situation. Probably Willowfox would respond to that with something like: "Yes, it's positive because it contains the elements of her leaving the guy, which is positive for her in the end and overall." But I think I should let Willowfox do her own responding lol.

willowfox · Nov 13, 2006

Well, hex 11 taken on its own gives a very positive answer but that is not the answer that you received. You received hex 11.2,3 which say if you stay in this relationship then it will remain unpleasant, the text says that you know what to expect so don't complain when it becomes a reality. Okay, its negative if you wish to remain in this "relationship" but positve if you want to call it a day.
Hex 24 gives you a positive answer to leave this guy, returning to what you had before, freedom, being single. It is a cycle, your relationship was a cycle which has now completed itself, so time to change, do something new and fresh, discard the old way of life, the one that included this guy.
Perhaps you will take a journey somewhere in December, if this is the case it will give you the much needed time to examine your life, then you will have to make that choice about your future. Prolong the agony or go on to better things?

Sparkler wrote;
" i took the answer to mean that yes, this will be a challenging relationship but that if i stick it out eventually things will improve.." hex 21.4 > 42

You have either misunderstood the answer or not read it properly, the overall answer to your first question was telling you it is soon time to pack your bags and leave.

sparkler · Nov 13, 2006

oh dear, that is a blunt and negative reply...no subtlety there! It just seems a little odd to me that if staying in this relationship would be entirely negative that i should receive hexagram 11...albeit with lines 2 and 3...i know i am fairly new to all this but it seems to me that there are many other hexagrams that would have served the purpose if the situation was without remedy...it is a challenging relationship; my boyfriend has his problems with trusting etc...but does that mean i necessarily have to walk away? For a relationship to be valid does it have to be totally smooth and without conflict? Surely we can learn something from these challenges? What do others think...is willowfoxs' interpretation the most fitting to the situation?

vincent · Nov 13, 2006

sparkler said:
oh dear, that is a blunt and negative reply...no subtlety there!
.........................................
What do others think...is willowfoxs' interpretation the most fitting to the situation?

I don't see 11->24 as negative as some others on this forum, but the only opinion that matters is yours.
My advise would be not to visit this forum anymore for one or two weeks, don't play with three coins in that period, and think things over quietly. I am sure you will make up your mind and know what to do eventually.

Whatever you decide, make the best of it!!!!

bruce_g · Nov 13, 2006

I think the gist of both readings is, you get from it what you put into it. You’ll have to bite down hard at times, but there’s also rewards you’ll find. If you want the increase and harmony you’ll both have to deal with each other’s idiosyncrasies. There’s ups and there’s downs. It’s up to you both to make it work, or not. But I do see a lot of potential in this relationship, based on these readings.

sparkler · Nov 15, 2006

thanks for that bruce...there seem to be a number of ways of looking at these readings...

bruce_g · Nov 15, 2006

sparkler said:
thanks for that bruce...there seem to be a number of ways of looking at these readings...

Most welcome. Yes, there are.

sparkler · Nov 19, 2006

i just asked the I Ching "what are my partners true intentions towards me?", and got hexagram 32 with no moving lines...can anyone make any sense of this in the context of the earlier readings? ...many thanks sparkler

willowfox · Nov 19, 2006

"what are my partners true intentions towards me?", and got hexagram 32.

He sees himself as the dominant partner and you as the gentle and submissive woman, the married couple. He takes no notice of the problems in the relationship, he is quite happy to continue as is, he is not going to change. He has settled the matter in his mind how he wants the relationship to be and that is that.

dobro p · Nov 19, 2006

willowfox said:
"what are my partners true intentions towards me?", and got hexagram 32.

He sees himself as the dominant partner and you as the gentle and submissive woman, the married couple. He takes no notice of the problems in the relationship, he is quite happy to continue as is, he is not going to change. He has settled the matter in his mind how he wants the relationship to be and that is that.

And now, in exactly the same quadrant, a more positive spin:

"Your partner's intentions are constant, unswerving and reliable."

So, you've seen Willowfox's downside take and my more upbeat one. (A *perfect* illustration of the disadvantage of working online with more than one reader lol...) So, which one rings more true for you? Cuz it all comes down to you, to *your* intuition and feeling and decision.

hexagram 21 lines 4 and 5 becoming hexagram 42 please help!

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