One metaphorical hint in understanding the Yi

confucius · May 17, 2007

I ask you this question, which has been proposed by most initiates to their pupils over the centuries; no catches, no word game, you already know the answer but will dig too deep to come up with a ready made answer. Once you provide YOUR answer, this answer will change and that is the answer. Reply to this extremely simple basic question and you will attain a remarquable level of comprehension in the Yi...

...What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable object ?

Confucius

...wax on, wax off, breath in, breath out...Daniel son...

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
...What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable object ?

Me first! Me first!

If it is "unstoppable" and moving and the other is "unmovable" and stationary then the "unstoppable" will go through "unmovable". Methinks "unstoppable" has the upper hand in that encounter although, there isn't really a better one... One will have to yield, in some way, without altering its intrinsic nature.

L

lindsay · May 17, 2007

Welcome to the ENLIGHTENMENT SWEEPSTAKES!!!

Today's contestants will answer the following question:

confucius said:
...What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable object ?

Are you ready, Contestant Number One?

Contestant #1 (Lindsay): "Umm ... ah ... erh ... Yes!"

The answer, please!

Contestant #1: "Hexagram 12?"

Buzzer: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Wrong! Next contestant ...

confucius · May 17, 2007

If it is "unstoppable" and moving and the other is "unmovable" and stationary then the "unstoppable" will go through "unmovable". Methinks "unstoppable" has the upper hand in that encounter although, there isn't really a better one... One will have to yield, in some way, without altering its intrinsic nature.

The unstopable cannot go through the unmoveable, the nature of the unmoveable is that, it cannot move, therefore you must reflect anew...

By the way, saying that it is unstopable AND moving is a pleonism, it necessarily has to be moving in order to be unstopable, agree ?

One cannot yield either, or it would not be Un-something (unbreakable, unmoveable...)
Un = that can not, that is not, that will not...

Confucius

...and do not say that you cannot see the forest because the trees are in the way...

lindsay · May 17, 2007

Actually, I would turn to Sunzi to answer this question, not the Yi. Very simple. Unstoppable goes around unmoveable.

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
The unstopable cannot go through the unmoveable, the nature of the unmoveable is that, it cannot move, therefore you must reflect anew...

Nope, the unstoppable is not moving the unmovable by going through it. You didn't say unbreakable, and unmovable and unbreakable are not synonyms. Unyielding things are prone to breakage and that's a lesson right out of the Yi...

By the way, saying that it is unstopable AND moving is a pleonism, it necessarily has to be moving in order to be unstopable, agree ?

Nope again. Saying that because something is unstoppable it has to be moving is a big assumption. There is a state where the unstoppable can fulfill it nature by remaining still and thus eliminating the need for stoppage. This is different from unmovable, BTW, as nothing "stop" the "unstoppable" from starting to move.

One cannot yield either, or it would not be Un-something (unbreakable, unmoveable...)
Un = that can not, that is not, that will not...

That un-specific...

I'm basing my replies only on the two words used, viz "unstoppable" and "unmovable"

L

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

lindsay said:
Very simple. Unstoppable goes around unmoveable.

Good one! Nobody said that "unstoppable" has to move on a straight line...

L

PS: now, just wait for Confucius to make "unmovable" omnipresent... :rofl:

confucius · May 17, 2007

Of course...

...no one said that unstopable had to be going in a straight line, but Confucius said what happens when an unstopable object """Hits...an unmoveable object...and yes, in order to be unstopable, you have to be moving, dont be ridiculous...
...I have warned you, you are drifting away because you seek a ready made answer, just like seeking an answer in the Yi is not the purpose of the Yi, it helps you understand and recognize the answer that is already within...

Confucius

confucius · May 17, 2007

another thing

the nature breakable you suggests lets us assume realistically that part of the unmoveable object moves, and that is not the nature of the unmoveable.

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
but Confucius said what happens when an unstopable object """Hits...an unmoveable object...

:bows: Got me on that one!

and yes, in order to be unstopable, you have to be moving, dont be ridiculous...

Do you also make you own rules for Parcheesi?

...I have warned you, you are drifting away because you seek a ready made answer, just like seeking an answer in the Yi is not the purpose of the Yi, it helps you understand and recognize the answer that is already within...

See, now you are really starting to believe you are what your moniker says...

At least I know I cannot fly... :rofl:

L

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
the nature breakable you suggests lets us assume realistically that part of the unmoveable object moves, and that is not the nature of the unmoveable.

Now, the word "unmovable" is abstract enough as to allow thinking of it as not displacing itself on a space/time line, but in my mind it also allows for yielding or breakage.

confucius · May 17, 2007

?

Who, or what, is my moniker...and at least you know you cannot fly...you know also that the litterary convention stipulates that flying is also an object that is projected in the air...I'll bet you I could make you fly...

...no offense...

Confucius

confucius · May 17, 2007

On the convention of the word...

The word unstopable is not an abstraction, it is a convention...if you take two steps back you will be closer to your answer.

Confucius

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
Who, or what, is my moniker...and at least you know you cannot fly...

Main Entry: mon·i·ker
Variant(s): also mon·ick·er /'mä-ni-k&r/
Function: noun
Etymology: probably from Shelta (language of Irish itinerants) munnik, modification of Irish ainm
: NAME, NICKNAME

Your moniker is "Confucius" and I really doubt you are the "real" one... :rofl:

you know also that the litterary convention stipulates that flying is also an object that is projected in the air...I'll bet you I could make you fly...

...no offense...

Hey, none taken. That actually sounded sexy and suggestive. Who knows, if we were close-by and I found you my type, I may even say yes...

L

confucius · May 17, 2007

Thank you for the etymology...

...am I the real one ? was he asked that very question...hum, asking the second question answers the first.....

...as for the blush...and the proximity...thank you...I am monastic...awkward, that you can not see nor fly, but use Sparhawk as a moniker...hahaha

Confucius.

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

BTW, the flying thing, in case it wasn't obvious, comes from this:

Main Entry: spar·hawk
Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: primary stress spär
secondary stress double hyphen
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sparhauk, from Old English spearhafoc, from spearwa sparrow + hafoc hawk -- more at SPARROW, HAWK
archaic : SPARROW HAWK

L

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

confucius said:
awkward, that you can not see nor fly, but use Sparhawk as a moniker...hahaha

Confucius.

Ahhh, the ironies of life... :rofl:

L

martin · May 17, 2007

"What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable object?"

Well, not much, the first object doesn't stop, the second object doesn't move.

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

martin said:
"What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable object?"

Well, not much, the first object doesn't stop, the second object doesn't move.

What, no romance? Geeze, leave it to the Dutch to be pragmatic...

L

martin · May 17, 2007

Hmm, my liefste said:
"But lieveling, there can still be romance if one of them doesn't move and the other doesn't stop!"

Sparhawk · May 17, 2007

martin said:
Hmm, my liefste said:
"But lieveling, there can still be romance if one of them doesn't move and the other doesn't stop!"

Brilliant! :rofl:

L

confucius · May 17, 2007

I totally agree...humbly still...

with the comment about the pragmatism of the Dutch...who cares is their common answer, but what is one to expect in a country that has more of its citizens abroad than within its borders ? I say this affectionately, having lived there 5 years...when I was unstopable...hahaha

bruce_g · May 18, 2007

lindsay said:
Actually, I would turn to Sunzi to answer this question, not the Yi. Very simple. Unstoppable goes around unmoveable.

That is gua 39: water moves around mountain (or obstruction). A fallen tree holds back the stream. Turning back to itself, building up, water flows along the lines of least resistance: over, around and through the branches.

bruce_g · May 18, 2007

But I don't think that's the answer Confucius alludes to. More a Ch'an moment, where irreconcilable differences destroy logic, me thinks.

confucius · May 18, 2007

There we have Bruce_G again

The Yi invites us to find answers that already are within, for who knows better than yourself about yourself; the Yi is a tool, not the work at hand. The few got involved, the many came and watched, as different people dug shallow and deep to provide the answer, but go back and I did say you shall find YOUR answer, and when you find it, the very answer changes, is not the Yi about change (YI)...think less, you shall be closer to an answer...life is a journey...travel light...

By the way our dear Sahuaro dweller, the analogy of water is as Confucean as it gets, always refreshing to have it brought forward once in a while...but it does not answer a simple question: What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable objet...dont think, you already know the answer.

Confucius

bruce_g · May 18, 2007

I'm confused. I thought Yi was the work of the devil.

:mischief:

Muwhahahaha!

bruce_g · May 18, 2007

But to be clear, this analogy of water and mountain was in response to Lindsay’s “Actually, I would turn to Sunzi to answer this question, not the Yi. Very simple. Unstoppable goes around unmovable.” Clearly, that is an image of 39.

My speculation about your puzzle was that there is no answer that can be found, which is perhaps more Lao Tzu than yourself, sir. True to form, you gave nothing a thing, and called it self.

lightofreason · May 18, 2007

confucius said:
What happens when an unstopable object hits an unmoveable objet...Confucius

oscillation. repetition. sex for the sake of sex - one just bangs away or is banged away. It gets into issues of argument, replacement of context etc - anger/sex are the core elements in any competitive replacement (sex is the cooperative form of competitive development) and so we cover the five-phase realm of exchange, cooperative (lake) and competitive (heaven).

Given the dynamic of the yang (unstoppable, moving, actualisation) and yin (unmovable, stopping,potentialisation) so out of the middle develops the IC.

lightofreason · May 18, 2007

bruce_g said:
But to be clear, this analogy of water and mountain was in response to Lindsay’s “Actually, I would turn to Sunzi to answer this question, not the Yi. Very simple. Unstoppable goes around unmovable.” Clearly, that is an image of 39.

part of it. 39 covers both standing up against the mindless flow and going with it to bypass. Local context then decides the 'best fit'. The point here is there is no meeting, no face to face and so competitive dynamic that can be creative, the focus is on slipping past or standing up against the slip (and so force it) - and so both aspects, the unstoppable and unmovable 'slip' past each other, there is NO change and that is 'negative' - to have change means to transcend and that can come with oscillations, the unstoppable bounces off and comes back etc. etc. and the dynamic can elicit energy in the surroundings and so elicit some change.

bruce_g · May 18, 2007

lightofreason said:
part of it. 39 covers both standing up against the mindless flow and going with it to bypass. Local context then decides the 'best fit'. The point here is there is no meeting, no face to face and so competitive dynamic that can be creative, the focus is on slipping past or standing up against the slip (and so force it) - and so both aspects, the unstoppable and unmovable 'slip' past each other, there is NO change and that is 'negative' - to have change means to transcend and that can come with oscillations, the unstoppable bounces off and comes back etc. etc. and the dynamic can elicit energy in the surroundings and so elicit some change.

That's interesting, oscillations, energy, eliciting change. But isn't that the nature of 39? Character is developed through inner friction, or oscillation. Without resistance there is only empty progress. And once water rises (gathers), it can go around the obstacle.

One metaphorical hint in understanding the Yi

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