why we use the Yi, and when we stop using it

dobro p · Jun 28, 2007

The main reason I've been using the Yi is because I feel a need to know what's really going on in situations in my life, a knowledge which I don't have via my normal set of perceptions. My normal perceptions are heavily censored and colored by the pre-conscious filters of my conditioning and upbringing - there's stuff I just don't notice, and what I do notice is heavily filtered through the biassed 'understandings' of my very particular personality. Anyway, what it comes down to is that I know my worst enemy is myself, I don't really trust my own judgement, I'm short on intuition, and I'd like a way to know what's *really* going on, what's objectively going on, independently of the way I normally perceive things. So I use the Yi.

However, recently it occurs to me that people who actually *do* know what's going on (because they have learned to outgrow their conditioning and see things as they are) don't need the Yi. "Yeah, so what?" you ask. Well, I've spent a lot of time working with this oracle, and developing my own version to work with, and exchanging notes with the likes of you in order to develop my understanding further. A lot of time. I'd probably be investing that time in a more intelligent way if, instead of developing my knowledge of the Yi and how to use it better, I used the time to develop my knowledge of how to see things as they really are.

ewald · Jun 28, 2007

That's by and large how I use the Yi as well.

Overcoming the conditioning that prevents us from seeing what's really there is in my view not really a matter of developing knowledge. It's a matter of seeing and understanding the conditioning, and learning to focus on what's happening here and now. You'll let go of conditioning when you see and understand it. (Of course, you will need knowledge to get that process going.)

bruce_g · Jun 28, 2007

I'd like to meet these people who really know what's going on. Seriously. And I don't know if we can ever truly move beyond our conditioning. What we can do is change our present condition, and by that our future conditioning will have been improved.

Btw, ya been layin down some great questions lately, imo.

dobro p · Jun 28, 2007

ewald said:
Overcoming the conditioning that prevents us from seeing what's really there is in my view not really a matter of developing knowledge. It's a matter of seeing and understanding the conditioning...

You've just described self-knowledge. It's not only knowledge, it's the most valuable form of knowledge we can have. Way better than books.

ewald said:
...and learning to focus on what's happening here and now.

Yes, it's not enough to know. You have to know how to put your attention on what's necessary and keep it there.

dobro p · Jun 28, 2007

bruce_g said:
And I don't know if we can ever truly move beyond our conditioning.

When you really and truly see one of the automatic patterns in yourself (there are many, some deeper and more compelling than others), two things happen. First, distate for the automaticity you've seen (distaste is a normal reaction to seeing mechanicality in ourselves) sets up a new value in you - you 'don't want to go there no more'. Second, you start to sincerely reach for the new value and abandon the automaticity. And cuz you've got its number, its days are numbered. Sometimes it just falls away as soon as you see it. Years ago, in psychotherapy, I suddenly saw how for years I'd been 'punishing' my parents in various ways out of a sense of resentment for various parts of my upbringing. That resentment and punishing of them was an automatic reaction that I'd never really looked at closely. But as soon as I saw it, it fell away like a bit of dried caked mud stuck to a wall that you knock off, cuz I didn't want to be such an unpleasantly automatic person in that regard.

But other parts of my conditioning are taking a lot more work to see and outgrow. And *that* is the main reason for spending time with a person or people who know. The Buddhists call it Sangha. I call it 'getting help cuz I can't do this all by myself'.

dobro p · Jun 28, 2007

Oh, and by the way - when that pattern of resentful revenge disappeared, it left something behind. What was left after the punishing motivation fell away was an ability to *discern* them. Judgement had disappeared, and what was left was a capacity to see them. The negative conditioning was transformed I suppose, and a useful capacity remained. I think that 30.6 is talking about something like that when it talks about dealing with the 'head' of the problem and leaving the rest.

Sparhawk · Jun 28, 2007

dobro said:
However, recently it occurs to me that people who actually *do* know what's going on (because they have learned to outgrow their conditioning and see things as they are) don't need the Yi. "Yeah, so what?" you ask. Well, I've spent a lot of time working with this oracle, and developing my own version to work with, and exchanging notes with the likes of you in order to develop my understanding further. A lot of time. I'd probably be investing that time in a more intelligent way if, instead of developing my knowledge of the Yi and how to use it better, I used the time to develop my knowledge of how to see things as they really are.

Yeah, who and where are those people?

Now, you make it sound like you either regret or are starting to regret the time you spend with the Yi.

IMO, the ultimate goal in studying, using and dedicating time to the Yi in general, is for it to be just a stepping stone to reach the status of those mythical beings you mention above. Sadly for me, I know I'll never reach it (better to have that clear least I delude myself at some point in my life...) I, however, enjoy the company immensely.

L

hilary · Jun 28, 2007

dobro said:
I'd probably be investing that time in a more intelligent way if, instead of developing my knowledge of the Yi and how to use it better, I used the time to develop my knowledge of how to see things as they really are.

Are you sure there's a real 'instead of' here? I cherish the hope that if I get shown how things really are often enough, eventually something might rub off.

frank_r · Jun 28, 2007

When using the Yi I sometimes ask myself, what part of the answer I get from the yi is from the "spirit" of the Yi and what part is my conditioning?

When I'm uncertain about the answer the Yi is giving I look up the answer in different Yi translations. Sometimes I get even more uncertain, then I know that my conditioning is playing tricks with me.

And sometimes my "sprit"and the "spirit" of the yi are meeting each other. When that happens they smile to each other and than I can say. Thank you, I already knew this but it is nice to hear that my intuition looked in the right direction.

bruce_g · Jun 28, 2007

dobro said:
When you really and truly see one of the automatic patterns in yourself (there are many, some deeper and more compelling than others), two things happen. First, distate for the automaticity you've seen (distaste is a normal reaction to seeing mechanicality in ourselves) sets up a new value in you - you 'don't want to go there no more'. Second, you start to sincerely reach for the new value and abandon the automaticity. And cuz you've got its number, its days are numbered. Sometimes it just falls away as soon as you see it. Years ago, in psychotherapy, I suddenly saw how for years I'd been 'punishing' my parents in various ways out of a sense of resentment for various parts of my upbringing. That resentment and punishing of them was an automatic reaction that I'd never really looked at closely. But as soon as I saw it, it fell away like a bit of dried caked mud stuck to a wall that you knock off, cuz I didn't want to be such an unpleasantly automatic person in that regard.

But other parts of my conditioning are taking a lot more work to see and outgrow. And *that* is the main reason for spending time with a person or people who know. The Buddhists call it Sangha. I call it 'getting help cuz I can't do this all by myself'.

I think it is as you say. There are old conditionings which fall away, and others which cling tightly. This reminds me of Moses' trips to the Mount Sinia, where even his body was transformed. Or a day spent in the hot sun, when your skin is literally burnt off after it peels. A big 49 experience.

But this affect which seems to happen all of a sudden actually results from conscientious effort over time. As in 42, correcting faults and improving virtue brings increase over all, over time. Or the empty city of 46, where the absence of resistance seems sudden, but actually evolved from a long and determined climb.

What Ewald said is also very important, I think. Once we understand or have knowledge of our conditioned responses, they lose their influential power over us, or at least a path to improvement can be clearly seen.

dobro p · Jun 29, 2007

sparhawk said:
Yeah, who and where are those people? Now, you make it sound like you either regret or are starting to regret the time you spend with the Yi.

No regrets at all. But it's like somebody who's been working on losing weight by eating less and studying nutrition, and one day they go: "You know, I've been spending a ton of time studying food and eating less; but I think I'd be in an even better position if I spent half my effort on doing some actual exercise."

sparhawk said:
IMO, the ultimate goal in studying, using and dedicating time to the Yi in general, is for it to be just a stepping stone to reach the status of those mythical beings you mention above.

They're not mythical; I've met some. With work, I can move in their direction as well. And although the Yi is useful for resolving some doubts and decisions, and although it's a wonderful companion, I don't think it can substitute for the real inner work that's necessary to move toward the status of the beings we're talking about.

Tohpol · Jun 29, 2007

dobro said:
They're not mythical; I've met some. With work, I can move in their direction as well. And although the Yi is useful for resolving some doubts and decisions, and although it's a wonderful companion, I don't think it can substitute for the real inner work that's necessary to move toward the status of the beings we're talking about.

Can you define the characteristics or qualities that sets them apart from others? Some clear examples in their behaviour and actions that allows you to be so sure?

(I've met some too btw...

)

Topal

dobro p · Jun 30, 2007

Well, I see things this way: body, mind and consciousness are three different sort of energies which come together or overlap in us. It's possible to move into states in which only consciousness is present. The people I'm talking about are much less in the physical, much less involved in the physical - the body is a vehicle which serves their purposes, but they don't serve its purposes, if you know what I mean. Ditto the mind - they're good with their intellects, but they know that the mind only goes so far, and their goal is to get beyond the mind, and they know how to do that. They know that consciousness is the key, and they are able to access consciousness free of mind more or less at will. They don't have a sense of self the way you and I do, cuz they've seen through it - they know that the 'I' is just a thought and they don't identify with it anymore. There's a cleanness about them, cuz they're so free of false personality and false 'I'. There's an impression of light coming through them. There's an experience of sweetness and love coming through them. So for me, it's not so much their behavior (although they entire lives are devoted to what the books call spiritual development), it's more their state of being.

That's what I've seen so far with my limited perceptions.

Tohpol · Jun 30, 2007

dobro said:
That's what I've seen so far with my limited perceptions.

Well, pick their brains a bit and report back! Better still invite them on to this forum...

Topal

...life can be translucent

why we use the Yi, and when we stop using it

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