31.3 - Attraction is good, actually!

ewald · Oct 11, 2007

I thought it more polite not to post this in the Shared Readings area (where Forgiving someone 31.3>45 prompted me to write this).

I think most'll agree that 31.3 is about attraction, possibly of a sexual nature. The influence is in the thighs, loins, groin, hips, or whatever.
I'm not too happy with Wilhelm and other translators attributing humiliation to it.

This is the Chinese text:
咸其股，
執其隨，
往吝。
The humiliation thing is coming from the last line. The thing that is humiliating, shameful, or inadequate, is what's indicated by the character 往. Wilhelm translates 往 with weitermachen (German original) / continue (Baynes translation). However, that's not really what 往 means.

The meaning of this character is by and large the same as the English to go, and can also mean to leave (just as to go can mean that). To go does not mean to continue, as to go is about starting to move. The same goes for 往.

In case of attraction, it can sometimes be a good idea to leave, but generally this is not so. On the contrary! It would be a bad idea! Why would you want to miss out on that!? And that's what this third sentence of 31.3 is saying: "Leaving is inadequate."

It is in fact understandable that Wilhelm translated this line so negatively. After all, as a Catholic missionary in the 1930's, he was probably taking sexuality to be morally bad. He translated this line according to his convictions.

This is how I translate 31.3:

Affecting the groin.
Holding on to what is followed.
Leaving is inadequate.

hilary · Oct 11, 2007

I've got a sense of two meanings for 'go' in the Yijing. One is to leave, as in leaving home, going away. The other is to 'go on in the same way'. Hexagram 39's many contrasts of 'going' and 'coming' seem to me to be contrasts between 'carry on going out, away from your home' and 'turn round and come back'. A parallel idea to northeast/ southwest.

Very glad you started this thread!

ewald · Oct 11, 2007

Hi Hilary,
In 39, I have "going through" for 往, and "arriving at" for 來. You "go through" something (some kind of trouble), in order to "arrive at" a certain outcome (or sometimes lack of outcome). Like you go to the dentist, in order to arrive at the situation where you can continue to use your teeth (39.4). So for me, that's still starting a certain movement, not continuing one.

I have some difficulty grasping your different take on these lines. Could you post some examples?

hilary · Oct 11, 2007

I picked up these ideas from the Shijing, where there are many conscripted soldiers and suitors who 'go' and 'come' - and pretty much without exception, they're going away from home and coming back home. (Or, in the case of the soldiers, wishing they could.)

How about 39.4?
'Going difficulties, coming connection.'
Keep on struggling uphill, and it'll stay difficult. Come back home, where there are people you can connect with.

Just a possibility, not The Interpretation, of course.

Have you read LiSe's work on wang and lai? It's good, nourishing stuff.

ewald · Oct 11, 2007

But isn't it so that soldiers and suitors who "go" and "come" are "leaving" and "arriving?" Similar as in 31.4 - 48.0 - 51.5, this is not continuation, but initiation.
I did a brief check for all instances of 往 in the Shijing, and didn't see any where Legge translates it with something like continuation. The "going" in the Shijing is not the same concept as the one you are using, which is continuation.

LiSe's "proceeding" is a nice find, in that it's a continuation that at the same time is an initiation. When proceeding, you start to continue.

Do I see it correctly, that according to your interpretation, with 39.1 - 39.3 - 39.4 - 39.6, the situation is always one of trouble/difficulty? One is always in trouble, but there is another option?
I think that each line in the Yi describes the intent of a single, unique situation. I can't quite see how in 4 lines there can always be a situation of trouble, in fact 4 times the same thing, with the same intent. The other situation that is possible, is still another situation that's drawn into the equasion, one that requires insight to be seen as an option. It's not really part of the same, single situation.

With my interpretation of these lines, there is 4 times trouble, but the intent differs, making it different situations. Also, these are single situations, with one intent.

auriel · Oct 11, 2007

"In 39, I have "going through" for 往, and "arriving at" for 來. You "go through" something (some kind of trouble), in order to "arrive at" a certain outcome - "

This is excellent, &revelatory. The text becomes cohesive if taken in the context of "contemplation-processing of obstacles" (and makes the sequence 38-40 cogent as well). A process must be undertaken for the obstructions to its completion to be rightly understood; then the solution may be fairly "arrived at". That solutions are generally compromises in the book's philosophical framework supports as well Hilary's reading of 39.4 here.

39.1 as the will to overcome
39.2 as engaging the task
39.3 as the (temporary) retreat upon recognition of the true extent, etc.

The Wilhelm, et al versions convey only the sense of "coming" as a friendly or open minded approach- fairly so perhaps, but obfuscatorially(sic)

In such contexts 31.4 could be read as pertaining to the always imminent passing of the attractive stage of a social, sexual, or commercial engagement- the obstacles to a truer deeper union then come to the fore.

ewald · Oct 11, 2007

Auriel - Had to reread that a couple of times in order to grasp what you wrote, but yes, interesting. (I wonder what my talk about "intent of situations" means to others..)

Sparhawk · Oct 11, 2007

Just to add a little something about 往:

As a verb it means:
to go toward; to depart
but also means: formerly; past; bygone; gone; passed; frequently

As an adverb, it is used to indicate time or direction, as in 往前看 (to look forward)

heylise · Oct 11, 2007

Ewald: LiSe's "proceeding" is a nice find, in that it's a continuation that at the same time is an initiation. When proceeding, you start to continue.

No, I had nothing in mind like "starting to continue", that means you stopped and now you go on. To me proceeding means to proceed. Of course there can be a situation that you stopped and now you pick up the thread again where you left. But most of the time it is simply - well - proceeding. Going on in the same way that you were going.

Wang: go toward, in the direction of, toward; past, previous.
So it has to do with going towards a goal. Or going on from something and by doing that making it previous. A road which is quite defined in your mind. From here to there. Leaving from here and going to there.

That does not at all make wooing or sex interesting. Even when you have no moral troubles with it it is very good advice not to ‘proceed’ that way.

LiSe

Sparhawk · Oct 11, 2007

This is how I translate 31.3:

Affecting the groin.
Holding on to what is followed.
Leaving is inadequate.

BTW, I believe the above translation is very dangerous as it turns upside down the contextual meaning given by more than two thousand years of scholarly commentary. One thing is to play with characters and words and try to do literal translations and another is to discard what has been accumulated over centuries.

Before replying, please read Post 13 where I have further thoughts on this...

heylise · Oct 11, 2007

Mm, I guess previous is rather the 'something' itself which proceeded, so it left 'now' and became 'previous'.

LiSe

Sparhawk · Oct 11, 2007

heylise said:
Mm, I guess previous is rather the 'something' itself which proceeded, so it left 'now' and became 'previous'.

LiSe

Sparhawk · Oct 11, 2007

sparhawk said:
BTW, I believe the above translation is very dangerous as it turns upside down the contextual meaning given by more than two thousand years of scholarly commentary. One thing is to play with characters and words and try to do literal translations and another is to discard what has been accumulated over centuries.

Quoting myself, I've been thinking further Ewald's translation and perhaps I can see a little clearly what he means. On the one hand, the consensus sits along the lines of 往吝 meaning something like "going forward will cause regret" (as in keeping the current path or train-of-thought). On the other hand, Ewald sees it as "leaving" what is regretful or inadequate and I understand it based on a possible meaning of 往, which is perhaps fine but I stick to what I say above about it departing from consensus. What I'm thinking is that, if we put both translations together, side by side, and if we sort of average it, what we obtain is something akin to "action is inadequate and/or regretful," whereby action is the operating word here.

Does it make sense?

ewald · Oct 11, 2007

Luis, I think consensus is highly biased.
Confucianism, the source of the lion's share of the historical scholarly commentary, has its own agenda. I think that that agenda does not fit with the one of the writers of the original Zhouyi. Then, there is the post-Legge and post-Wilhelm consensus, which is all highly influenced by, you guessed it, Legge and Wilhelm.

Please allow me to look afresh at the material.

Sparhawk · Oct 11, 2007

Avoiding Confucian thought to get closer to the original Zhouyi doesn't mean to automatically take a diametrical interpretation and/or translation of the text. Not saying this is your posture but we, all of us, must mind all perspectives. We are, after all, creatures of our environment and said environment encompasses also what we learn along the way.

In any case, taking Jou, Tsung Hwa's translation, which is considered to be from a Daoist interpretation, 31.3 reads:

The influence shows itself in the thighs. It holds on to what responds to it. To continue with this brings an upset.

Browsing through my books, I found a nice interpretation of this line by Franklin Hum Yun:

Refrain from plunging into an action impetuously. Set your goal high and proceed with a well-thought-out plan and implement it one step at a time. You are blessed with many human resources to carry out your plans.

Line 3-9: This yang line is at e top of the lower trigram Mountain (halt), contiguous to 2-6 and correlating with 6-6. The yang line indicates an urge to move aggressively. The influence has reached its third level, the thigh. The thighs move along with the calves and the toes, but it is strongly influenced by 4-9.
The images signify that the influence is felt in the thighs. The metaphor means that this man has too strong an urge to influence others with every desire of his heart, which will lead him to humiliation. He must be able to hold back his desires so tat he can appropriately differentiate as to whom to influence (1-6, 2-6, and 6-6) or by whom to be infuenced by (4-9). Any capricious move to act at this time is inauspicious and will cause him regret.

hilary · Oct 11, 2007

I'm pretty sure that the going/coming lines of 39 are making a contrast, and talking about changing direction. I think the primary meaning is going out, away from the home vv coming back home, and a secondary meaning that follows from that would be going on along the same path versus turning round and coming back. Whichever - the change of direction is important. The Image authors seemed to think so, and they had their wits about them.

charly · Oct 12, 2007

ewald said:
...I think most'll agree that 31.3 is about attraction, possibly of a sexual nature...
...In case of attraction, it can sometimes be a good idea to leave, but generally this is not so. On the contrary! It would be a bad idea!...
...Wilhelm ... was probably taking sexuality to be morally bad...
This is how I translate 31.3:
Affecting the groin.
Holding on to what is followed.
Leaving is inadequate.

Hi, Ewald:

I believe you'r right! I think that H.31 is, among many other things, about the «feast of catching women» (1), not exactly marriage.

I think that the most accurate translation of 咸 is «SHOCK» and for 感 is «EMOTION» (instead of mouvement). I believe that both are not equivalent, the 1sth. more action oriented, the 2nd. more subjective. I temporary prefer «TO SHAKE». (2)

Maybe 31.3 like a «light, camera, action! CLACK!» is encouraging somebody for sexual action, but not going too fast, not forgetting the follower.

Thus I could translate 33.3 as:
咸其股 Shake that thigh, (3)
執其隨 Grasp that follower,
往吝 [but] to go [is] stingy.

A good advice for both girls and boys: don't hurry him, don't forget her, compatible with old chinese «sex-lore».

Don't you agree?

Yours,

Charly

_________________________
(1) Some stuff I had posted about : http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=57558&postcount=27

(2) Another post:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=57608&postcount=34

(3) In spanish «to move the bottom» exhorts to action.

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

Luis - I've found Cleary's Taoist and Buddhist I Chings both quite reminiscent of Wilhelm's interpretation. I don't know Jou, Tsung Hwa's translation, but someone in the 20th century translating the I Ching was probably influenced by Wilhelm's work.

My first version was, like so many other translations, close to Wilhelm's, despite me avoiding referring to his work (I did refer to other translations). But upon continued studying, so much didn't seem to quite make sense. When inner consistency isn't there, or things don't fit with psychological or spiritual knowledge, while an alternative translation does, I prefer to go with consistency.

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

As for translating 往吝 with "continuing is inadequate" (or shameful, humiliating, whatever), I think there would have been 貞吝 if that meaning was intended (as in 11.6 - 32.3 - 35.6 - 40.3 ).

往 and 貞 are both used a lot in the Yi, and have clearly distinct meanings. The former to go, the latter to persist, continue. I think it's highly unlikely that these would be mixed up, using 往 for to continue.

Muller has this for 往:
To go (to some place), to advance, go towards, to depart, to set out. Opposite of [返] and [來].
To arrive; to reach to. [至]
To face (toward). [向]
To leave, to pass; to pass away. To go in the sense of not ever coming back. [去]
A person who leaves, goes, or passes away. A departed one.
The past; anciently, formerly, gone. [昔]
Before, prior, already. [前]

I see nothing about continuing there, same in other dictionaries I consult.

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

sparhawk said:
Quoting myself, I've been thinking further Ewald's translation and perhaps I can see a little clearly what he means. On the one hand, the consensus sits along the lines of 往吝 meaning something like "going forward will cause regret" (as in keeping the current path or train-of-thought). On the other hand, Ewald sees it as "leaving" what is regretful or inadequate and I understand it based on a possible meaning of 往, which is perhaps fine but I stick to what I say above about it departing from consensus. What I'm thinking is that, if we put both translations together, side by side, and if we sort of average it, what we obtain is something akin to "action is inadequate and/or regretful," whereby action is the operating word here.

Does it make sense?

I think there's a clear distinction between "keeping the current path" (continuing) and "going forward" (initiating something).
If "action" would be the operating word, 行 would have been used.

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

Charly -

I think it's about attraction, though, not necessarily sexually.

jesed · Oct 12, 2007

Hi Ewald

ewald said:
After all, as a Catholic missionary in the 1930's,

To say that Wilhelm was a catholic is like say Lao Tze was confucionist; or Kung Tze was a budhist.

ewald said:
he was probably taking sexuality to be morally bad.

If you read Wilhelm works like the Secret of the Golden Flower, you could guess this may be more your own assumptions than reality.

Even some catholic missionaries in the 1930's (and even in the Middle Age) believed sex is morally good.

ewald said:
He translated this line according to his convictions.

This could give the impression that this interpretation of humiliation in continuing the impulse wasn't present in the studies of the Yijing until this "catholic" came to write about it. Could it be that Wilhelm translated this line, not according with his convictions but according with the mayor chinese exegesis at his time (as Wilhelm itself said he made his translation)?

Best

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

jesed said:
If you read Wilhelm works like the Secret of the Golden Flower, you could guess this may be more your own assumptions than reality.

Could you back that up with a quote, please?

jesed said:
This could give the impression that this interpretation of humiliation in continuing the impulse wasn't present in the studies of the Yijing until this "catholic" came to write about it. Could it be that Wilhelm translated this line, not according with his convictions but according with the mayor chinese exegesis at his time (as Wilhelm itself said he made his translation)?

Sure, that's possible. But his talking about God in a couple of places shows that his own convictions definitely got into the mix.

charly · Oct 12, 2007

sparhawk said:
Avoiding Confucian thought to get closer to the original Zhouyi doesn't mean to automatically take a diametrical interpretation and/or translation of the text...
"...influence is felt in the thighs... this man has too strong an urge... which will lead him to humiliation... capricious move to act at this time is inauspicious and will cause him regret."

Luis:

Maybe there are another reasons for avoiding confucianism, one of which is to get closer to the received text of the ZhouYi, without the chorus of commentaries, without addings nor substitutions. I wonder why some people speaks of humiliation, regrets or inauspiciousness where the text puts (stingy, parsimonious, ...)

Do I continue thinking in spanish? (1)

«To go» and «to arrive» have perhaps in english the same sexual meaning that have the spanish equivalent words?

Maybe 31.3 is an advice («carpe diem») for proceeding to action and for not yet ending it. Do you find some sense in the whole hexagram context? I do.

Also it advices to put hands on work «grasp that follower» or «grasp what it follows». One who is proceeding to action puts his hands on something, or he takes something with his hands,thus «grasp it», «catch it»(2).

Action must not end (for now). If you go, you are stingy.

31.3 only says that, it don't speak about planifying.

Am I wrong?

Un abrazo,

Charly
___________________
(1) Shake that thigh: Do you associate it, like I do, with «move your bottom» [«mover el culo»], to act?

(2) Action starts: «catch yourself Cathy that we shall go to gallop!» [«agarrate Catalina, que vamos a galopar»] , do you know what means to gallop among classic greeks? If not you can imagine it.

charly · Oct 12, 2007

ewald said:
Charly - I think it's about attraction, though, not necessarily sexually.

Thanks, Ewald:

Of course, not necessarily. Much meanings in the same text. :bows:

But I suspect W/B, both have in mind the same fixed idea. If we highlight the W/B text here and there we can get a small handbook of sexual advice. Whilhelm used to atenuate his light, to pass there with low profile, but he knows. I'm sure Baynes too.

What do you think about the «Shock» and «Shake» options instead of attraction, movements, cutting off, etc.?

Another thing: you had to read Wu Jing-Nuan, you can get it with e-mule, neither excessive modern nor excessive traditional, with handwritten chinese characters and accupuncture background.

Yours,

Charly

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

charly said:
What do you think about the «Shock» and «Shake» options instead of attraction, movements, cutting off, etc.?

I haven't been able to find this meaning in any of the dictionaries I use. I compiled together, all, completely / unite, join / feel, be sensitive to, respond to, influence for 咸.

Sparhawk · Oct 12, 2007

ewald said:
I think there's a clear distinction between "keeping the current path" (continuing) and "going forward" (initiating something).
If "action" would be the operating word, 行 would have been used.

No, I wasn't translating when I said that; I was intrepreting the possible meaning of the characters based on the context of the overall text of the line... Any number of characters could have been used to convey a similar meaning; it is the brain that connects the dots and finds meaning and associations. Mind you, I'm not saying my interpretation is correct but that it is a possible interpretation.

Sparhawk · Oct 12, 2007

ewald said:
Luis - I've found Cleary's Taoist and Buddhist I Chings both quite reminiscent of Wilhelm's interpretation. I don't know Jou, Tsung Hwa's translation, but someone in the 20th century translating the I Ching was probably influenced by Wilhelm's work.

That's a big assumption... On the other hand, influence works both ways, as your own translations may start showing: one is to follow the flow/trend of the supposed influence and the other is to go the other way completely using said influence as a reference point.

My first version was, like so many other translations, close to Wilhelm's, despite me avoiding referring to his work (I did refer to other translations). But upon continued studying, so much didn't seem to quite make sense. When inner consistency isn't there, or things don't fit with psychological or spiritual knowledge, while an alternative translation does, I prefer to go with consistency.

There you have it. Your first translation, despite avoiding Wilhelm's work, came close to his. However, rather than taking it as unbiased, when finding similarities with his work, you took it as being "influenced" by it. Could it be possible that you first hunch was the correct one?

Now, perhaps you are also assuming there is an "inner consistency" in the text of the Yi, as in a linear textual narrative. This is a typical Western line of thought: to seek such consistencies. Eastern thought works on another level and is associative rather than linear. IMO, I don't believe there is a purposeful narrative in the Yi but a compilation of significant historical divinations; a collage of sorts, of much older texts, around a common theme at the hexagram level. That's why, in the West, we must "interpret" the original text together with literal translations and thus derive meaning.

Sparhawk · Oct 12, 2007

I'm glad Jesed pointed out some or the inconsistencies written about Wilhelm. He was an ordained Protestant Minister and actually died in the year 1930. Another thing I'd like to point out to is that, by the time of the Sung, most Chinese scholars weren't able to read the original written characters of the Zhou era. For this I mean, if around that time, in their own land and culture, scholars were having problems interpreting ancient Zhou texts, we have no real hope, here in the West, of ever being 100% correct in the interpretation of what we are reading and translating. We can only hope for the best, while referring back to as much material as possible to find contextual meanings to support what we interpret.

ewald · Oct 12, 2007

sparhawk said:
There you have it. Your first translation, despite avoiding Wilhelm's work, came close to his. However, rather than taking it as unbiased, when finding similarities with his work, you took it as being "influenced" by it. Could it be possible that you first hunch was the correct one?

Why do you assume that my first version was unbiased? Like I said, I referred to other translations. I didn't assume that I was able to create a good translation from the start just by myself, so I looked a lot at the example of various other translations. Just like every other translator, I assume. I assumed at first that those texts would be different in lots of respects, given the ambiguity of the material, and I also assumed that they wouldn't be that much influenced by the two big examples. But nevertheless, my initial text, that was much influenced by other examples, but not much by Wilhelm, ended up being a lot like Wilhelm.

I didn't notice that at first, of course. I just noticed that my greater familiarity with the material, my compiling my own dictionary, my developing an advanced reference system in webpages, and other developments, made me spot more and more inconsistencies. Over time, I noticed that my developing scrutiny and creativity with this material, caused my text to drift further and further from Wilhelm's example.

And I realized that nowadays there is no such thing as a translation of the Zhouyi that is not influenced by Wilhelm. I think it's safe to say that every translator has experience with Wilhelm's text. Many, if not all translators who translate to create a divinitory text, initially rely on other examples to come to grasps with this. And every such translation initially is more like Wilhelm than it is after the translator has worked a while on it. I dare to say that it simply depends on the amount of work a translator spends after his or her initial verion how different the work will be from Wilhelm's. But every translation (and I repeat, every translation for divinitory purposes, not the work of Ruth, Kunst and the like) contains elements imitated from Wilhelm's.

And this is in fact a major reason for similarities between translations. Similarities are there because everyone is in one way or another influenced by Wilhelm. So similarities between translations can NOT be taken as an indication of correctness of a particular interpretation.

sparhawk said:
Now, perhaps you are also assuming there is an "inner consistency" in the text of the Yi, as in a linear textual narrative. This is a typical Western line of thought: to seek such consistencies. Eastern thought works on another level and is associative rather than linear. IMO, I don't believe there is a purposeful narrative in the Yi but a compilation of significant historical divinations; a collage of sorts, of much older texts, around a common theme at the hexagram level. That's why, in the West, we must "interpret" the original text together with literal translations and thus derive meaning.

Well, I leave it to you to assume there is no inner consistency. I think it's not farfetched to reckon with inner consistencies, like

hexagram title matches the hexagram theme
narratives in a particular line are logical
a particular line contains one theme, one situation, one intent
lines are part of the hexagram theme
lines contain unique situations and intent
....

31.3 - Attraction is good, actually!

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