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34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great

indra

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Hello all,

I've been on the spirtual and mystical path for quite a while, but this just intrigued me concerning the yi-jing. The QUESTION was Are there spiritual forces at work in my life?

The resulting hexagram was this line 34. Ta Chaung The Power of the Great and suprisingly I have got no changing lines, is the universe really saying something to me from this oracle.

34. Ta Chuang / The Power of the Great

above Chên The Arousing, Thunder

below Ch'ien The Creative, Heaven

The Judgement
The Power of the Great. Perseverance furthers.

The Image
Thunder in heaven above:
The image of The Power of the Great.
Thus the superior man does not tread upon paths
That do not accord with established order.

The Lines
Change at the beginning means:
Power in the toes.
Continuing brings misfortune.
This is certainly true.

Change in the second place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.

Change in the third place means:
The inferior man works through power.
The superior man does not act thus.
To continue is dangerous.
A goat butts against a hedge
And gets its horns entangled.

Change in the fourth place means:
Perseverance brings good fortune.
Remorse disappears.
The hedge opens; there is no entanglement.
Power depends upon the axle of a big cart.

Change in the fifth place means:
Loses the goat with ease.
No remorse.

Change at the top means:
A goat butts against a hedge.
It cannot go backward, it cannot go forward.
Nothing serves to further.
If one notes the difficulty, this brings good fortune.

Would any experienced wisdom-sayers able to help me with this interpretation, are these signs from the oracle saying well yes I'm doing well. Or is the answer a bit more complex than I think?

Warm regards
 

willowfox

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The QUESTION was Are there spiritual forces at work in my life?

Hex 34

There is nothing "spiritual" at work here, it is you that has the power to make something of your life, but it requires caution that you do not over exert your influence on others. In other words don't become manipulative or pushy towards others, use your influence for the greater good of all
 

dobro p

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"I've been on the spirtual and mystical path for quite a while, but this just intrigued me concerning the yi-jing. The QUESTION was Are there spiritual forces at work in my life?

The resulting hexagram was this line 34. Ta Chaung The Power of the Great and suprisingly I have got no changing lines, is the universe really saying something to me from this oracle."

Your background, your question, your answer, and the response you got from WF are all really interesting to me for two reasons. First, they express some assumptions which are intriguing. Second, it's a pretty spectacular answer to your question.

First, the assumptions. You say you've been on the spiritual path for quite a while and then ask if there are spiritual forces at work in your life. If the path you are on is really a spiritual path, one that is taking you through transformations that get you to a level of consciousness beyond body and mind, then everything connected with you and the path you are on is a spiritual force. So, if I don't understand why you would ever ask a question like that, it must be because I don't understand what you mean when you say 'spiritual'. So I'll ask: what do you mean when you say 'spiritual'? What does that word mean to you?

Next assumption: WF says the answer indicates there is nothing 'spiritual' in the situation you're asking about. But my experience is that the Yi answers the questioner on the questioner's terms usually. So I think WF is being a bit presumptuous with her initial pronouncement (but the rest of her reading is sound, I think).

Finally, the spectacular bit. You asked if there are spiritual forces at work in your life, and you draw Hex 34. Hex 34 talks about great power at work, a situation in which it's to your advantage to persevere in doing what you think is right. (It's the working at doing what you think is right that keeps the great power on track, cuz otherwise great power almost always goes to your head, you get inflated, you make stupid and sometimes painful mistakes.) So it seems to me that in answer to your question, the Yi is saying: "Spiritual forces are at work big time; keep working at doing what you think is right." And I would second the Yi's advice to keep working at doing what you think is right, because if there *are* big spiritual forces at work in your life, you had better be aimed like a straight arrow at the target, because when those spiritual forces start moving you in and up, you most certainly do not want to go off course left or right. That would be very painful, possibly worse. Act on your highest and best values and you won't go wrong. But how many people do that? Not many. I hope you're in the minority lol.
 

dobro p

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"Spirituality is not child's play. My sentences will tear to pieces anyone who listens to them."

Nisargadatta
 

indra

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" First, the assumptions. You say you've been on the spiritual path for quite a while and then ask if there are spiritual forces at work in your life. If the path you are on is really a spiritual path, one that is taking you through transformations that get you to a level of consciousness beyond body and mind, then everything connected with you and the path you are on is a spiritual force. So, if I don't understand why you would ever ask a question like that, it must be because I don't understand what you mean when you say 'spiritual'. So I'll ask: what do you mean when you say 'spiritual'? What does that word mean to you? "

Spiritual means to me transgressing beyond the physical and mind and moving towards the true I (noble, kind, quite and confident in it's actions). Basically the mystical divine flame that resides witin each and everone of us.

Regards
 

rosada

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Hey come on dobro, give the lady a break. Even Mother Teresa, "The Saint of The Gutters," wondered big time if there really was a god. And JC Himself asked why had he been forsaken. I think it's very natural, especially when one gets deeper into the relms of thought, to question "Is this valid or am I just making it all up?" But more importantly, isn't it nice to have a different sort of question to chew on? Personally I think anyone daring enough to post a question before this shooting gallery deserves a warm round of applause. (I count myself among those who have given unnecessarily harsh answers here lately.)

My first reaction to Indra's question was, "Well of course there are spiritual forces at work!" so I thought it was terrific that WF was able to see beyond the glib responce and really look at what the hexagram had to say. I don't agree that 34. means there is nothing spiritual going on here, but I do think WF got it right when she said the I Ching is telling you now is the time for caution. A person can easily feel The Universe thinks I'm right when what is required is to get right with The Universe. You might get value from looking at the recent discussion of hexagram 34 on the Memorizing the I Ching thread.

I agree with dobro's take on the meaning of 34 for your question, that is, that 34 is telling you to stay on the straight and narrow path and focus on the best and that way if there are spiritual forces at work you will not be be led astray.

Really a very suitable responce. Good toss!
 

Trojina

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Life is a spiritual force so how can it be present in one place and not another ? Life = spirit, there is no place else to go.
 

rosada

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Well I think Hexagram 1 is about the pure spiritual life force, the unseen intention that makes it all happen. Then I think 34 is about the individual ego's awareness, the being conscious of the greater Intention and the importance of realizing the life force, the spiritual force is not us, but works through us. If the light bulb thought it was the Light it would explode.
 

martin

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That's OK. The Light doesn't need a bulb. :)
 

dobro p

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Hey come on dobro, give the lady a break.

I'm not interested in criticizing WF as much as I'm interested in making room for Indra's question.

I thought it was terrific that WF was able to see beyond the glib responce and really look at what the hexagram had to say.

Well, from where I'm sitting, it looks more like WF was looking, not so much at what the hexagram had to say in the context of Indra's question, as what WF had to say about Indra's beliefs. I think that WF's remark about 'no spirituality here' had less to do with a sensitive reading of Hex 34 as a response to Indra's question, and more to do with what WF believes. (I could be wrong here. So, let's ask her: WF, do you think spirituality is not a possible theme in Hex 34 generally, or do you think it's not a theme in Indra's case specifically?) But you know, I do this too sometimes - if I think the questioner's approach is basically flawed, I'll point it out. But in this case, I want to support Indra's line of enquiry because I think it's important, and I want to protect it from attacks by people who pooh-pooh it. I'm allowed to do that.

You might get value from looking at the recent discussion of hexagram 34 on the Memorizing the I Ching thread.

Tsk. Shameless advertising. :D
 

rosada

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I think we have some mixed signals here, dobro. When I said "Give the lady a break" I was meaning give Indra a break cause I thought you were critisizing her for asking the question. But now you say you are actually wanting to support her for asking. So great. And maybe WF wasn't being particularly insightful, but at that moment my kneejerk reaction was to say to Indra, "Of course there are spiritual forces at work!" and so it was beneficial to me to have someone NOT give the automatic touchy-feely responce but to try to be objective.

Shameless advertising? Darn right. The sooner these newbies start feeling confident with their right to post an interpretation the sooner this love boat will set sail.
 

dobro p

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Shameless advertising? Darn right. The sooner these newbies start feeling confident with their right to post an interpretation the sooner this love boat will set sail.


LOL

All aboard!
 

dobro p

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Spiritual means to me transgressing beyond the physical and mind and moving towards the true I (noble, kind, quite and confident in it's actions). Basically the mystical divine flame that resides witin each and everone of us.

That's parallel to the way I see it. I wouldn't say 'transgressing' though. I'd say 'moving beyond'. Also, when you talk about moving beyond the physical and the mental and moving toward the true, you see the true in terms of personal qualities. I see those qualities you mention as being part of the mental dimension, but arising out the dimension of the true that you mention. In other words, when you start to access the true, then you start to exhibit nobleness and kindness and so on, but the nobleness and kindness and quiet confidence aren't part of the realm of truth you describe, they're part of the realm of the mind.

Whatcha think?
 

dobro p

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When I said "Give the lady a break" I was meaning give Indra a break cause I thought you were critisizing her for asking the question. But now you say you are actually wanting to support her for asking.


Rosada - betcha five bucks indra isn't a girl. lol
 

indra

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That's parallel to the way I see it. I wouldn't say 'transgressing' though. I'd say 'moving beyond'. Also, when you talk about moving beyond the physical and the mental and moving toward the true, you see the true in terms of personal qualities. I see those qualities you mention as being part of the mental dimension, but arising out the dimension of the true that you mention. In other words, when you start to access the true, then you start to exhibit nobleness and kindness and so on, but the nobleness and kindness and quiet confidence aren't part of the realm of truth you describe, they're part of the realm of the mind.

Whatcha think?

I think your'e spot on Dobro! Actually Indra is the God of thunder in the hindu realm, what else was I going to say.

Something else I noticed the Tao describes the world forming from yin and yang energies. Postive and negative I imgaine, however if you look at other aspects of religions for example God & the so called Devil you realise this is more or less the same thing. This never occured to me until I venture into the realm of IChing.

Warm Regards
 

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