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18.4 to 50

cal val

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Hi there...

I had a dream last night... or series of dreams... most of which I understood when I woke, but there was one aspect of the dream that didn't make sense to me... it didn't fit me. It's not in my nature to take the position I took in the dream. I, with some friends who were becoming ill and succumbing rapidly to AIDS that was being spread intentionally by a malicious people (I remained untouched throughout), found the cure for AIDS. In the realm of my life where AIDS might be a consideration, a cure for AIDS would not have been (or is) the solution... since it's way past the 'allotted' time that AIDS is any consideration. So I asked the Yi this morning what was that part of my dream about. The answer was 18.4.

Brad Hatcher says of this line:

<blockquote>Indulging father?s fixations

To continue meets with disgrace
18.4x Indulging father?s fixations:
Continuing (is) less than gainful

A lot of entrenched human error will get broad support from the culture around it. Families and groups may tolerate error as though this went with belonging, while the young get lots of advice to continue this trend and are pressed to accept these pathologies as if they were part of the meals. Wait until you are older, you?ll see. Don?t swim against the stream. You?re breaking our hearts. What can one person accomplish? This is not how we raised you. Stay here where you belong and work within the system for change. All of the lemmings are doing it. There will always be places to place and hide blame, or to shelve your honor and hide from yourself. Humankind will never grow up in this way. The bending one gets in childhood is not an excuse worth a lifetime. Victims form a much larger class than innocents.</blockquote>Freeman Crouch says something that feels quite different but I could be misunderstanding what he's trying to say:

<blockquote>Bathed in the father's curse. Go and see. Distress.

Now it is time to go abroad and take a look. Contrasting with the previous line, you are encouraged to look outward at your larger constituency.</blockquote> Freeman, if you're reading, I would love you to elaborate. Anyone else... any thoughts?... especially those of you who know I'm the furthest thing from a lemming you've ever met and that I have a very high DGaF quotient... *grin*.

Thanks.

Love,

Val
 
B

bruce

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Hi Val,

No, I can't see you as a lemming. I don't see myself as one either, but neither can I deny that I can still follow influences as a lemming would. To cure that I'd have to literally erase a portion of my brain where those things have been stored. So I think in that regard, there's a bit of lemming in all of us.

If you are asking for thoughts on the dream, here's an impression. Yesterday you were highly distraught over something in your past - your muse. But the sorrow was not only for yourself. It was also for the Scotsman, and me, and anyone else who's been ill through that sort of trauma. I see this as the AIDS patients in your dream. The patient isn't the only one whose life is impacted by the disease. Notice that it took these other people to find their own cure? The malicious people in your dream were, I think, those who infect the lives of those they?re supposed to love. And you have a huge amount of compassion, which puts you very near the disease, even though not directly infected.

So, I think the father, in this case, are those for whom you suffer.
 
M

micheline

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yes, yes, what bruce said. it could very well relate to the topic that caused you so much anguish the day before on the thread. BUt the dream isnt saying you are one of the lemmings, it says you found the cure... togther with the people who were "working with you" on the thread, who had been "infected" in one way or another.

AIDS could symblize the widespread "disease" of romantic disillusion which kills off the souls of those who try to make it work at their own expense. the cure....some connection you made in the thread yesterday....?

and 18,4 is saying that it is an "infection" passed on generation to generation...we try to adopt what passed for "love" in our parents (and our parents generation) and make it work the same way...but it was faulty...and will still be faulty even if we try to repeat it over and over again. the cure is something other, something new, something that needs to be discovered.

I think brad's and freeman's interpretation are saying the very same thing. you need to look outside the box. you can't look to the past for the way to live or love, because the past was not a valid representation of what loving or living means.

in a sense, 18.4 is the stance of "no more." I will not repeat the mistakes of that "disease" ....even though it be widespread and the way its always been done.. there is a cure for this anguish....and something about what you experienced yesterday resonated as the "cure" for romantic disillusionment. maybe 18.4 represents that cure: to know that "Humankind will never grow up in this way; {it's} not an excuse worth a lifetime."
 

cal val

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Thank you very much Bruce and Micheline for your input...

I'm printing this out and taking it home and reading it again. You've both added considerably to my own understanding.

The part of the dream that I did understand might be relevant then to the part about finding the cure to AIDS. When I said I've given it, I wasn't just boo-hooing. I haven't stopped loving. I've just given up... something deep down inside me has given up... even with the images from the 25 year old dream looming in my current daily reality with all their promises... and even after the 'attack of the psychics' (*grin*) with all their promises, something inside me very quietly gave up just before I returned to LA, and I've made some life changes accordingly... not consciously... just quite naturally as a result of giving up.

In the dream this morning, after finding the cure for AIDS, I went through this rather comical scene (I and others in the scene were joking around) that made it clear I'd shed the life changes and reversed the "giving up" attitude. I'd opened the door I've closed, and it was a joyful experience. The thing is that I would... will reverse my attitude and life changes if a reason presents itself. That's why I didn't have a problem understanding that part of the dream. But I will not go 'looking' for a reason. I never have 'looked'. I never will. Reasons happen when they happen for a reason. (Do I need to insert a grin here for the humor impaired to indicate that every word in the last sentence was intentional? Or not?)

To confirm your interpretations, Bruce and Micheline, the person attacking my friends and loved ones was inflicting big nasty AIDS infected wounds like they had scratched them with big sharp claws. And when I think about it, it's very easy for me to believe that those friends I laid down on the ground in the 'safe area' to cure were you, Bruce, my friend who moved East and my beautiful, wonderful Scotsman. Consciously, I don't believe these women that have infected your lives do what they do with malicious intent. They just are so selfish, so self-centered, so uncaring, really so unloving that they don't... can't see the damage they are inflicting on the people who are acting from the kindness of their hearts to help them. "I love him and will do whatever I have to do to keep him" is an oxymoron. When you hurt a person by denying him what he really wants to get what you want... love is a minus factor in the equation.

Love,

Val
 
J

jesed

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Hi Val

Just in case the comment could be useful

First of all, I want to said that everything I will write, will bee written with high respect, friendship and blessings for your life. But, in case you find my words rude or unfair, just let my now and I will apologize.


You asked "what was that part of my dream about?"
So, that part of the dream was about something spoiled in your life because of your own negligent indiference. And the Time for face that "CAN O' WORMS" (Lise's transaltion) had came.
(Sorry if I sound rude; it seems to me like: the problem is not if someone else infected you with AIDS, the problem would be if you do nothing and don't make the effort to find the cure)

But seems you hadn't convince yourself to do what it takes to change what had been spoiled Line 4: because of inner weakness, one don?t face past errors/wounds (I know you dont see yourself as a weak person; and maybe you could feel injury for me to tell that. But that is one of the meanings of line 4). Even maybe you didn't see that there is something in your past that you need to fix.

That is why the dream arrive to you, like a wind punching the rigid mountain, in order to "inspires the people -you- to raise virtue" (Image)

Notice that your answer have 50 as Tendential Hexagram. 50 is inner transformation (in the Secuence said about 50 "nothing change better than a Couldron") This is so good.... you should take 50 as your goal.
But be aware of 50.4: that would happen if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them.

I truly wish the best for you... and wish you find the cure that your soul need.
 
B

bruce

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Jesed, maybe you should put away your rule books for awhile, and just tune in to life.
 

cal val

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Hi Bruce...

Thank you. Actually Jesed has touched on something that I plan to write about later when I'm not so busy here at work. I was still weepy last night when I was alone and have been this morning. I figured out where it was coming from... figured out which one of my selves initiated the dream and had a conversation with her this morning. It's the 10-year old you know all about. (For those of you who don't, there's a very long post to Christ Lofting in the 50 to 8 thread featuring her and one of my last conversations with her). Otherwise, Bruce, I will elaborate a bit later.

For the record, though, I don't have a problem if you (or anyone else who's witnessed what I've been through since I've been on this forum) wants to educate Jesed as to just how uninformed is his statement "...if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them." (LOL) It brings to mind something both my mother and my father used to emphasize when I was a child... and that is... know of what you speak BEFORE you speak.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Hi again Bruce...

Just because I think it's funny and the timing couldn't be more perfect, one of my workmates gave me a cap earlier this morning that he received in interoffice mail from a friend of his in Merchandising because I said I love it. I was wearing it when I read Jesed's post... and your post, and I'm wearing it now.

It's a baseball cap with the logo from one of our all-time best known films across the front. The infamous house from the film is still standing on our backlot and is one of the scary parts of our famous tours.
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PSYCHO... across my forehead... how absolutely perfect! LOL

Love,

Val
 
J

jesed

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Hi Val

You wrote to my mail:
"Jesed Jesed Jesed....

For the most part, you are pretty much talking through your a$$ when you say, "But be aware of 50.4: that would happen if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them."

For the most part, you're pretty much talking through your a$$ when you say, "But be aware of 50.4: that would happen if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them."

Jesed...

I suggest first you read the 50 to 8 thread... the post I have mentioned a few times since you've been here.... the long one in answer in to Chris Lofting. And then the other posts that I've linked to recently in answer to some people about what I've been through since I've been on this forum... and then reconsider that very uninformed statement of yours I quoted.

In short Jesed, I have been through a most extraordinary journey since I came to this forum... and experienced some remarkable personal growth as a result of my travels to some very very very hurtful places. I have been through experiences, Jered, that a youngster of your tender age of 31 couldn't even fathom. I've been through much more right here in this forum than most people will experience in their entire life. And what I've experienced in this forum ain't even the half of it.

So why don't you go to the search engine here, using "and" rather than "or" input things like "brother shot brain injured" "family disintegrated Val" "child molestation". There's also some informative posts and good links in the "44 = the woman with a profound fear of marriage (and the man who tried to ask her to marry him)?" thread.

I do have compassion for you, Jesed. And I understand, and I hope this post of yours above serves as a valuable learning experience for you about presuming to know more than you do and about knowing of what you speak BEFORE you speak. I think you started a thread about reading for others and posted something about having integrity or something synonymous with that. I highly recommend you take your own advice.

As much compassion and understanding as I have for you, I AM still getting really tired of your juvenile behavior and your inability to get a handle on your very strong control issues, and I'm afraid I might lose my patience with you on the forum soon if you don't start trying to get YOURSELF under control.

Love,

Val"

As I mention before... you just had to mention and I will apologize.

I do

Best wishes
 

yellowknife

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I respect people who choose to use these forums to make themselves vulnerable sometimes by posting personal journeys and learnings made via the Yi. I've gained alot by reading what's here on Clarity.

It is a public internet forum though, and maybe it fair enough to bear in mind that sometimes when people post answers to you they may not have knowledge or inclination to go and seek out every post you've ever made and learn your life history in depth before modestly proffering their own interpretation.

That makes the need for open, in the moment, dialogue in the forums all the greater, and also each person's need and ability to sift what is offered.

Sometimes I see the threads here as a wonderful Tower of Babel, and sometimes the same language is being spoken and real communication happens. It seems like the onus is on each individual to take responsibility for the danger of entering into emotional communication with people who may not know us or our history. As a thirty year old, I also hope that the voices of the younger might also be validly be added to the mix, to be ignored, or not as you see fit.
 

martin

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Well yes, this is a public forum. We cannot expect that people are completely informed about our background when we post a question, even if there is a lot to find about it in the same forum.

In his post Jesed focused on the answer of the oracle and interpreted it as best as he could. And he did it respectfully and carefully, apologizing beforehand in case his words might come across as rude.
What more can we ask?
 

martin

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Anyway Val, I think that Jesed didn't deserve the absolutely DISGUSTING email that he received from you.
And it's not the first time that you send such niceties to people on this forum ...
 

hilary

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Maybe the interesting question is - if someone you didn't know particularly well received 18.4, what would you suggest it meant? The line's about exactly what Jesed said it was about: corruption that is not faced and not cured. (There's more that could be added, nuances that could be debated, but that's really not a controversial interpretation.)

It's knowing Val - and how the 'normal' reading of the line doesn't apply in any generalised sense here - that makes this a challenging reading. (BTW - I loved the way Bruce and Micheline brought dream and reading together. I think when you say, Val, that in the dream you had found a cure and reversed your 'given up' attitude, and in waking life you haven't - and combine that with what Micheline wrote - you have your answer.)

Of course, interpreting the lines of Hexagram 18 for anyone else is always very difficult, and never going to win any popularity contests. I can't think of a better approach than Jesed's: to start with respect, good wishes, and readiness to apologise, and then to give the reading with all honesty and in good faith.
 
B

bruce

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I believe that what we have here is a contrast between an emotionally highly charged and deeply personal circumstance, and a pragmatic reader and interpretation. Not always the most effective combination. There is something to be said about empathy and bedside manner. Who should we blame, the doctor or the patient? I suggest neither. Chalk it up to experience.

Agreeing with Wolverine on sharing personal information here. The one who shares it takes a great personal risk of being misunderstood. But if it has the potential to bring real life understanding into the forum, then I think that should be honored, and recognized as an especially sensitive scenario to contribute to.
 
M

micheline

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Far from "juvenile'" I find Jesed to be unfailingly respectful and endearingly humble. also obviously intelligent. I love the sometimes unusual "slant" on the readings he provides, always prefaced by "in case this could be helpful."

Val, I like the way you so generously share your journeys here, and you are obviously intelligent too. BUt that email stunk.

In general, I would ask why any of us would even bother with the Yi or with interpreting our dreams if we were not open to discovering some of the shadows which lurk within us? And I would venture to say we all have them (shadowy areas, places in need of light and healing). To think we have all the answers we need, or that we know everything there is to know or heal about ourselves would make the above pointless.

If someone's readings, interpretations, or perceptions don't appeal to us, we can graciously move beyond them. Control issues have to do with not wanting other people to express anything that threatens us (barring personal attacks)... when you give up control, you give up resistance..you run the risk of being misunderstood, but also risk maybe seeing something in a way other than your own.

The courage to explore the very things that hit a nerve and make us uncomfortable is what keeps on us on our toes and takes us out of our little boxes. And the freedom to say what we feel/perceive/sense is what keeps a forum like this interesting, alive and cookin'. 18.4 > 50.
 

cal val

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Hi there Jesed?

Well now? you aren't exactly the king of timing here are you? And you're not exactly all that astute as to whom you to try to humiliate... are you? Your choice of women (to attempt to humiliate)... and your timing... indicate to me that you haven't been paying attention there little boy. You posted that silly post of yours and then betrayed my trust at a point in time when the little 10 year old me? the one who in the past has so deftly verbally sliced and diced any man who's tried to get close to me (because her trust had been betrayed)? is pissed off again about something. I haven't had a chance yet to get cuddly with her and find out just what's on her mind yet? I plan to do that this weekend. But before I had a chance you silly boy, you walked across her path acting stupid. And until we get things sorted out... her and I... she's eager to repay your stupidity. I love her and have decided to just let her go? to loose her on you just like Gauis Marius loosed his slave army on Rome 13 days before he died. She's a mean little one, but I'm certain there won't be near the bloodshed there was in Rome that last two weeks.

As to your fate? what I have been able to discern so far is that she really wants to cut off your testicles, cut them into bite size pieces, arrange them attractively on a nice plate and feed them to you little bits at a time. However, I informed her the likelihood of your having any testicles considering how you've been behaving is slim to none. What she'd like to do instead then is verbally flay your skin just like the sheep is flayed in hexagram 23. Is that okay?? *grin*

Now? Jesed? you of all people? a young man who came roaring onto this forum telling us 'your way' is the right way, who then proceeded to tell me I was wrong and pouted? oh yes you did too pout? very childishly you silly little boy... when I told you I was fine with what I believed and didn't need your beliefs, and who then told others, including very knowledgeable scholars, that they're wrong, and who also wrote a whiny little post accusing others on this forum of the very thing you were guilty of as soon as you got here (telling people they're wrong)? you of all people? do you really think you're in a position or of a character to tell ANYONE "if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them." You silly little boy? all those behaviors of yours I just mentioned above... all of them... are classic control machinations. Everything you do and say projects very strong control issues? betraying my trust like you did is about control issues, and since control issues are about betrayed trust... it's no wonder you betrayed mine. Bottom line... you really could benefit by spending a good deal of quality one-on-one time with a mental health professional to help you face your own wounds and begin your own healing... just like I did.

Now? let's analyze some more of your stupidity here today shall we? Why DID you blunder into MY path today? Are you really so ignorant of English that you can't see the nuances in my language that indicate what I'm capable of? And why did you feel the need to attack me today? Are you angry? Do you hold onto anger? Are you vindictive? And WHY did you do what you did today? Jesed? Did you think you could hurt me? I mean that was the point wasn't it? I would have to care what you think in order to feel hurt by what you did wouldn't I? I'd have to care what anyone on this forum thinks in order to feel hurt by what you did wouldn't I? And, if you've been reading my posts, why would you think I care what others here think of me? Think about it? Why would ANYONE think that? I don't give any indication that I do? Who are you in my life? No one. Who are they in my life? Why would what you or they think have any importance to my life? Oh maybe that's another thing you're pissed off about... that I don't care what you think. Yeah... that WOULD be a difficult concept for you to deal with wouldn't it?

All that aside, did you think you could hurt me when as a skinny little 11 year old I survived a child molester who laid on top of me pushing all the air out of my lungs and covering my mouth with his mouth suffocating me? or a child molester who held me? again a skinny little 11 year old... in the middle of the Kern River where the current was stronger than me and fondled my gentalia and threatened to let me go if I screamed? Or other events that were so stressful I can't remember because I went into a fugue? Did you think you could hurt me when, as a skinny little 12-year old (just turned 12), I made the decision to abandon (temporarily) my three siblings, one of them severely brain injured (an eight year old in diapers and a wheel chair) to a dangerous situation to run for help because my own life was in immediate danger? Chester da Molester in da house? Think about it, Jesed, if you're capable? that's a hell of a decision for a 12 year to have to make? don't you think? And did you think you could hurt ANYONE who ever had to make a decision like that?

Did you think you could hurt me when my boss called me into his office 37 years later (being able to 'smell' the molested child in me) and sat there stark naked jacking off into his trash can and asked me to watch? A boss who grabbed my crotch so hard once he ripped my very strong Donna Karan tights?. etc? Did you think you could hurt me, a woman who took him and the major corporation in the no-tell industry we worked in to task? a woman who had the guts to file a sexual harassment suit against him and the company on behalf of myself and the eight silent victims before me? Did you think you could hurt me, a woman who endured the absolute hell the company's legal team put me through as they tried to prove I was an alcoholic slut? when I was really a Pepsi drinkin' prude?

Jesed? you very foolishly said: "if you continue not-facing your past wounds and heal them." Now here comes your lil lesson about 'knowing of what you speak BEFORE you speak.'

As I've said already many times on this forum? *snapping fingers in your face* Wake up and pay attention? I went into therapy when I was 36 years old? now I'm going to speak up so that anyone else as ignorant as you Jesed can hear me? that means I was intent on facing my past wounds to heal. Do you understand that now Jesed, or should I repeat it? this time s l o w l y ? Oh wait? you already knew that didn't you? *grin*? before you started trying to stir some sh*t... you were just hoping someone else who was reading your garbage didn't and would think you were really on top of things? didn't you? *titter* You're funny! (Keep in mind this is a 10-year old who learned to defend herself against bigger men than you... men with balls... who's pissed off at you now. I'm just watching and enjoying her. I love her... *grin*)

Now? therapy. (Remember I mentioned I went into therapy whe I was 36 back there. I just worry about your reading retention since your comprehension skills are so weak.) In therapy, I learned from a very talented, well educated and well informed woman (I had the good sense to see a woman therapist about things related to being a woman? oh gee now THERE'S a thought!). I learned that I had a strong fear of marriage. I wrongly assumed then though that it was because I was molested. (We'll get back to that later.) And we worked and worked to try to bring me out of denial about being molested. For those who don't understand what denial is? and I'm going to speak up again so those as ignorant as you are about these things ? such as Wolverine? can hear. Denial is not an intellectual exercise. It's an emotional experience. Denial is the state of denying one's feelings? keeping them stuffed? avoiding feeling them? in my case, as my therapist so astutely observed, because I thought they would kill me. We worked for eight months, I faced a lot of pain from my childhood, but we couldn't even make a dent in my denial of the emotions of being molested. But she'd taught me some wonderful tools, taught me how to communicate love and trust with my inner selves? among others, the hurt child? the one who wants to try on the God suit you're wearing when it falls off (since its way too big for you). She told me I would continue to grow and learn and become more content over time and maybe eventually be able to face the molestation wounds. So after eight months she released my from therapy. And things worked out like she said they would. Things got easier for me in many areas of my life and continued to get easier.

Then 12 years later, I got a promotion. And three days into my new wonderful job, my boss pushed me against the wall, and kissed me? just like the first molester did? and the walls of denial within me started decaying. I immediately recognized on a conscious level the similarity between him and the first molester? but I stayed in denial? just like our sweet lil Wolverine is? because the alternative? facing the truth that he was sexually exploiting me was not an option. And I went into PTSD for the next five months. My blood pressure soared to dangerous highs. I couldn't sleep. I cried all the time? I kept bursting into tears on job interviews (I was desperate to get out). I couldn't concentrate for more than a few seconds. I got into two car accidents in as many weeks? both of them my fault. I had recurring nightmares. And everything just kept getting worse and worse until my defenses finally crumbled and the pain came erupting out of me... while I sat at his desk and spit through my teeth that he was no different than the men who molested me. That was my defining moment obviously. And then I left and before I even hit the 405 headed for home, the pain was erupting out of me? my mouth was stretching open so wide as it pushed out that I thought the skin at the corners was going to tear? they burned.

Now Jesed? I'll spell it out for you as I obviously need to? considering the really weak powers of observation you've exhibited so far? I was dealing with not only the pain of being sexually exploited? raped? but I was also feeling that pain and fear of being molested that I thought would kill me as a child? the reason I stuffed them... denied them... remember? And I thought they would kill me then too when I finally felt them as an adult. That experience was me facing my wounds Jesed so that I could heal. Do you understand how that works? or do you want me to elaborate? s l o w l y ? I spent most of the next four months when I wasn't going through the legal battle from hell, sitting in the middle of my bed, rocking, holding my sides, opening my mouth and vomiting pain. I ran into an old friend recently whom I hadn't seen in 20 years and we got together and played catch up. When I finished telling her my tale? when I got to the part about coming out of denial, she said, "Like vomiting pain?" and I freaked. She knew. My eyes opened wide, I sucked all the air out of the room and I said, "You too?????" Then she told me her story.

Did you really think, Jesed, because there's no denying that's what you were trying to do, you silly little vindicative fool, that you could hurt ME, a woman who endured PTSD and then that kind of pain (from facing my past wounds... *grin*) AND waged a hellish legal battle against a major world corporation at the same time? And lived to tell about it? Come on... get real.

A small lesson? for your small mind? and I know this is a really tough one for control freaks like you... so I really don't expect you to get it. It's impossible to hurt someone emotionally who takes responsibility for their own feelings and doesn't yield their personal power to anyone. The only way you can hurt me is to step on my foot, run me over with a car or bash me in the shin with a baseball bat. But you don't know about that do you Jesed? you don't get it... because you allow yourself to be hurt by what others' think and say? you give away your power to others. That's why you get so upset when anyone rejects your beliefs for themselves. You feel like it's a rejection of you personally don't you? You're easy Jesed? you behaviors are classic? textbook.

And about this silliness of caring what others think... I've noticed there are a number of people on this forum who think how others feel about a person is important... or at least how THEY feel about others is important... and they like to share their little value judgments here on the forum... NOT by addressing anyone in particular mind you...like I'm addressing you directly with my rather low judgment of you... but just by doing a sort of passive/aggressive little dance... as if their value judgments are important to the OTHER readers of the forum. I ask you. How many of us remember who said what about whom the last time we had a little righteous hypocrite fest here? Personally, when I've read those posts (there have been some recently), I've been tempted to post something inane right behind them... like how I prefer to put on my socks. I think that's just as important information for the readers on this forum as their judgments are and deserves equal time. Don't you? There's an interesting conversation, btw, about the worthliness of sharing one's value judgments in the 'writers vs writers' thread for anyone who's interested.

Now, as promised (I keep my promises Jesed... *grin*) a little about my fear of marriage that I wrongly assumed was caused by being molested... Until my experience that started to unhold shortly after I started this forum (and which I've written about all over this forum), I assumed it was about being molested. But through a series of dreams and readings and a lot of castings about 50, I got to the root of my fear when I was forced by the men in grey in my dreams to face past wounds (before it's too late they said) that I didn't even know I had... which was the shooting accident that left my brother in a coma for many months, then brain injured and my parents divorce over it. no doubt being molested compounded things... but that was the real beginning. Are you reading this and paying attention Jesed, so you don't say anymore incredibly stupid stuff to me?

Ahem... Anyway, when I gave up on my wounderful, beautiful Scotsman almost two years ago (March 1, 2004), the 10-year old in me fought with me over it. She didn't want me to give up... said she didn't want to hurt him again... even though she knew by then that she couldn't hurt him... that he was responsible for his own feelings... and she wasn't, but she carried on like that and cried for days. And while she was grieving, my almost 23-year old cat that I loved so much more than any pet I'd ever had got too sick to bring back from death's door and died a week later... March 9 (what a coincidence?), freeing my up to leave that sorry little dying town at last. I had two reasons to grieve, but instead, I found myself packing to return to LA. And through all that, I received a reading from the Yi that said I would still have to deal with some issues from the past, and when I tried to confront the past then and there, the Yi said not then... there was no rush... that it would happen when it was supposed to. So I waited... and almost forgot. Are you getting this Jesed? I mean are you comprehending? I hope so. I don't like repeating myself. Anyway, I know now that Bruce's story was the catalyst. It's supposed to happen now. I talked with the 10-year old this morning like I told Bruce. She admitted she created the dream. And she was quite joyful about it. She believes something is going to happen (or wants it to) that I don't believe will. So she and I are going to talk this weekend... get to the bottom of her tenacity. I suspect I'll be quite surprised again. I don't know. I'll soon find out though... if she's not too blissed out now... having ripped you to pieces, Jesed.

Am I pissed at your stupidity?. Hell yeah. Am I perfect? Hell no. And did I capitalize on the fact I'm not perfect when I decided to write this post? Oh yeah. *grin* Did I (or did part of me) enjoy ripping you a new one here today? Oh yeah. I haven't done something like this in several years, and it's been fun.

Any questions? No? Well if I don't talk to you before then (I won't... I have nothing more to say to you and have no interest in reading anything you have to say), have a wonderful Christmas and New Year! *grin*

Peace, love and understanding,

Val
 

heylise

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Val, are you sure you are leashing out at a person and not at the world? Hitting the one who happens to stand in the way..

You are scared like hell of control, and nobody can blame you, after what you experienced in your life. And there the Yi hit the mark: fathers decay. Father, or men in general, or even more general, yang, power, control.

You conquered your fear of marriage, which is a huge accomplishment. I admire you a lot for that. But a step deeper is the fear of control, essentially the same fear, but harder to get hold on.

So I can only say: Jesed, don't take this personally. It is not really about you.

Val, I love you and I love your quest. Not telling you not to hit people, because I don't think that is my place, and I don't think it will make any difference. So go ahead. I only hope nobody will get hurt.

LiSe
 
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bruce

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A shouting hurricane vs. a china doll in warrior clothes.

Val and I certainly have had our share of go-rounds during these last few years here. Amazing that somehow that water has passed under the bridge. One thing I especially like about Val, I never have to guess where I stand with her. I?ve received a few direct and unkind emails too, back when, but I?ve never resorted to posting them in this forum to win support for my side. No, instead I internalized them, worked through them, sought the truth of my OWN 18-ness, corrected my outlook and disposition, and then returned, changed. That?s what a warrior does (Jesed).

Jesed, you have some wonderful information to share, and you?ve certainly been generous in sharing them. However, polite formality is a poor substitute for heart and candor. I saw nothing at all ?wrong? in your interpretation of Val?s reading. Everything you said about the line was, to my understanding, accurate. You may not understand, but I?ve taken a special interest in you. I smile inside to think that all your intelligence and polite mannerisms will eventually not be needed, because you will become all the grand things you talk about.

Who am I to spout my judgments of this? Other than another community member, absolutely nobody. So just take it with a grain of salt, please.
 

void

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Jesed just to let you know I think this attack on your character is wholly untrue and unjustified.

I do not think you meant harm at all, nor that you are a "silly little vindictive fool".

On the contrary you bring us a different perspective I find quite stimulating and interesting.

I think Val is lost in her own world of pain and she is just lashing out.

Well I hope your pain soon eases Val, but meanwhile I actually think that your last insulting post above should be deleted. If I were Jesed I would not want such a nasty and personal character assasination left in place.

Go find a punch bag, Jesed aint it !!!

I think theres just one rule on this forum and thats no personal character attacks. I think you're out of order Val and owe Jesed an apology.
 

void

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BTW I would not want any nasty personal emails like the one Val sent to Jesed, I think he was quite right to post it here. Why on earth should he internalise that kind of abuse. I would find such an email very upsetting especially as it was so totally unwarranted. Theres a difference in my view between being 'upfront' and being abusive.

No I don't think someone should just sit there and get a kicking and keep quiet !
 

hilary

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I occasionally delete posts on this forum if their author asks me to - whether because the post was written in the heat of the moment, or because image posting had gone wrong (again). Not that I'm anticipating being asked to delete anything here, any time soon (grin...).

Seconding Bruce's post from 2.44am... signing my name to LiSe's with enthusiasm... (I don't think Val's post says anything about Jesed.)

Wolverine, you've got me checking profiles to see people's ages. Gosh, Jesed is two years younger than me - must be in short trousers!
 

martin

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Hmm, when things like this happen they often cause an interesting dilemma in my self.

On the one hand, like I said earlier, I find the mail that Jesed received pretty disgusting and Val's latest post even more so.
So my mind comes up with such brilliant ideas as "Enough! Ban the bitch!" and "Burn the witch!" ...

On the other hand there is the "understanding" psychologist.
"Wait a moment, this is not about Jesed. Val is acting out an internal drama and judging from her last post she might very well be in some kind of crisis. Hopefully she will manage."

Well, let's ask the Yi about this dilemma.

Hexagram 5, no changing lines ...

Wait till the fog lifts or the rain stops and meanwhile enjoy good food and drink?

Okay, I will do that!
happy.gif
 

luz

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Well, I just want to join Void in saying that I think Jesed had the right to post the message and that this attack was unjustified. If I have a personal relationship with somebody then I think I should keep any messaging private, no matter how nasty it becomes, but this is not the case.

I also join Micheline in saying this:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

In general, I would ask why any of us would even bother with the Yi or with interpreting our dreams if we were not open to discovering some of the shadows which lurk within us? And I would venture to say we all have them (shadowy areas, places in need of light and healing). To think we have all the answers we need, or that we know everything there is to know or heal about ourselves would make the above pointless. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

And I also join Martin in hoping that she will manage whatever internal turmoil has made her react like that.

I really have no idea what it is that Jesed could have done better in his original post. If anything, it struck me as extra polite and careful. Maybe his interpretation is too 'text book'? Maybe he didn't know enough about Val's background? To tell you the truth, judging by Val's reaction, it seems to me that his interpretation was right on the spot.

I just hope that Jesed and others are not discouraged from giving their opinion even when it might not be very 'popular'. I think we should all learn to take what fits, leave the rest behind and move on, certain that whoever tried to help did it with the best intentions.
 
S

sunflare

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Just stepped in for a quickie after having stepped out one day for a pack of cigs a VERRRY long time ago. HAHAHA! And none too surprised to find the same old hypocrisy and back slapping amongst the aren't-we-so-great-cause-we-agree-with-each-other crowd is still a major feature of this discussion board.

Am I surprised to find that Val has been granted a lifetime pass to periodically dump her rage and disrespect with nothing more than a slap on the wrist for her many abuses of the other members here at Clarity because, afterall, most voices here have also graduated from the aren't-we-so-great-cause-we're-ever-so-i-ching-humble school, right? lol

As for Val, my memory of her is that she has always had the habit of posting questions that she ALREADY had the answers to - and woe to anyone who didn't get THAT memo. Remember people, Val doesn't need help, that would imply that she was weak. The reason she sees "control issues" everywhere she looks is because she's wound up too tightly herself.

Val, a lovely woman to look at but the bitterness at her core has become so rotten it reeks. Shades of 18.4, methinks.

And the issue with marriage is not that SHE'S afraid of it but that there is NO man (not in his right mind anyway) who would be willing to get sliced 'n diced whenever she suddenly decided that she'd been "misunderstood". For crying out loud, when one GLEEFULLY justifies shitting on others the way she does, yet considers herself an authority on LOVE matters, THAT is being in denial.

As for me, I expect Val will be back in here again in short order brandishing her razor blade (yikes!) while the rest of you go about singing each other's praises (oh, bother) so I guess it's time I ran out for another pack (lol)...
 

dmar9

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I just threw Hexagram 18 changing line 4 to hexagram 50 myself and reading this thread has finally inspired me to joing this (great) group.
I wholeheartedly agree with Jesed, especially in light of reading Val's, long tirade on all the uresolved issues the I Ching is explaining she needs to transform in the holy cauldron of herself.
It's exactly the type of thing I keep on doing. Without going in to overly personal details all the things I still feel affronted for, abuses I have suffered and am still angry about, Images that keep flashing in my mind and especially the things I have large emotional reactions to.
With respect, all the people that provide you with symapthy and tell you that carrying on your whole life as a poor little victim of all the 'Horrible' people out there aren't doing you any favours. The I ching would draw parralells with this behavior and leaving Poisonous insects in your food jars, just waiting to bite you again just when you most need sustenance. Somehow get rid of the poisonous insects in your mind first, then go out to collect food from the garden of life and keep in your food jar or even cook in you cauldron. Getting rid of poisonous past experience and trauma is not easy and you certainly didn't deserve to be abused, I don't think Jesed is trying to say that, but the fact is you were and you proably will agian until you somehow find a way to deal with it all and stop yourself getting in to the same exact situation to act it out differently to solve the probelm in your head. If you do manage to heal yourself, then please tell me how you did.
Jesed is welcome to advise me on further I ching dilemmas in this humbly confronting way should he wish to.
 

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