61.6

maremaria · Mar 26, 2008

Hi ,

I’m stuck and confused with this line.

61.6
“Cockcrow penetrating to heaven.
Perseverance brings misfortune.”

Did the rooster went beyond limits ?
Is he helpless and asks help from above ?
Did he said something to heaven and now he has to wait for heavens reply ?

Or is about something else ?

What is the situation in this line ? Any thoughts ?

mudpie · Mar 26, 2008

Hilary once said about this line that it was about expecting too much from a situation , if I remember correctly. anyway, it stuck with me.

I also see it as the line of an arrogant, overly confident one, a braggart perhaps, crowing about stuff - dreams, plans, or things-I'm-gonna-do that have no grounding in reality.

It has a similarity to 62.6, but not really, because in 62.6, one overshoots his capability, leaves behind what he needs to be successful. 61.6 is more about illusion. JMHO

fkegan · Mar 26, 2008

61.6 as beyond the limit of the inner

hex 61 is the first of the last 4 hexagrams, beyond the 6 sets of 10. They are ordered by their overall line pattern. This first being inner. So the top line of 61 is the transition to the next from the hexagram which is all about the inner. Clearly this would not be an auspicious line.

The cockcrow or rooster crowing at the rising sun is a common image whether and whenever folks raise chickens. There is the folktale of the silly rooster who thinks that he is the sole cause of the sun rising (also associated with the strutting walk of the rooster).

So hex 61 line 6 is all about actively focusing upon going from your inner state to a transition to what you expect should come next in the objective world.When this line moves to its opposite, the resulting hexagram is 60 limitation. So when you try to take your delusions of grandeur as real, the result will be the objective imposition of limitations by reality.

Frank

dobro p · Mar 26, 2008

61.6 - endgame, the time of inner truth is passing. The rooster is full of himself, not full of inner truth. This is bad enough, but when things have come to the point where this attitude penetrates to the upper levels of one's being, you're in trouble, cuz there HAS to be a correction made, brought about from above.

maremaria · Mar 26, 2008

Thank you all of you .Yes, if I isolate that line, all what you said sounds correct. But in the context of my 61.2.5.6 > 24 makes me wonder if it is just that or/and something else.

Looking it in a very-very simple way
61.2 is Good
61.5 is Good
61.6 is NOT good

In that case (or in a reading like that ) would you seek for a negative meanings or warning in the two first lines also ?

Maria

meng · Mar 26, 2008

First, I wouldn't say that 61.6 is not good, any more than the wind messing your hair, or a rooster being a rooster is not good. As inner truth goes, line 2 works jointly, and it's nicer to discover and enjoy things when you have company. Line 5 links all the truths together, because it itself is true. Line 6 isn't bad, but he doesn't accomplish anything by himself, and he sometimes gets the impression that, as Frank said, his crowing makes the sun rise.

Creative work, like writing, drawing, music - anything inspired - arrives when it arrives, not always when you want it to. Your truth draws it to you, like a crane calling from the shade.

dobro p · Mar 26, 2008

maremaria said:
Looking it in a very-very simple way
61.2 is Good
61.5 is Good
61.6 is NOT good

In that case (or in a reading like that ) would you seek for a negative meanings or warning in the two first lines also ?

61.2 - lovely
61.5 - without fault
61.6 - not good

There are different elements in this situation, and each one is moving in its own direction, each one has its own agenda. (Each of these elements might be a desire or bit of conditioning in you, for instance.) It's common to have this, both in ourselves, and in situations. But keep in mind that ALL of these micro elements are within the overall picture, the overall context of 61, inner truth, which is really good. It's a good situation, but not purely so. It's like a good country which has issues. It's like a good family which happens to have some issues. It's like a good person who still has some issues.

maremaria · Mar 26, 2008

If I understood it well, inner truth is a "fragile" situation and line 6 talk about how to protect it. “Handle with care” like the crane and "Don't make big noise when is not necessary !"like the cock Frank mentioned. If not remain grounded and bragging, as Listener said, for having something you actually don’t own it might fly away.

Meng,you said “First, I wouldn't say that 61.6 is not good, any more than the wind messing your hair, or a rooster being a rooster is not good.” this is what I was looking for. Hearing the cock crowing and announcing the dawn it doesn’t look bad to me. Actually is a beautiful sound. But hearing a crowing in the night is really “inappropriate” . Also the way you highlighted,imo, the antithesis between crane and cock make a lot of sense to me.

Dobro, you make me smile reading “It's like a good person who still has some issues.” My reply when I read it was “nope, not me anymore”.

There was a issue about some data and I was just informed that the might-be-lost data was definitely lost.
But seriously , I think you are right about “But keep in mind that ALL of these micro elements are within the overall picture”

Again, thanks you all for your help

Maria

fkegan · Mar 26, 2008

61.6 becomes 61.2,5,6 to 24

Hi Marie,
I didn't catch the full oracle you had in mind in your original post.
There are various perspectives for dealing with multiple moving lines in an oracle. Some folks put a limit on how many to consider (at least automated online). Others see the moving lines as operating in sequence from first line to top. Whatever the detailed reading style you choose, there is always the overall import: hex 61 >> 24 Inner Truth becomes The turning point, on in my own Flux Tome Names Love's Route (root)>> Spring's Back.
Overall you have 61, one of the final four hexagrams whose meaning (and place in the KW sequence) comes from the overall line pattern--Inside Open. The first two moving lines expand that inside openness; however the final line breaks open the situation to a new beginning. The final line place is the transition to the next. In hexagram 61 that line has a cautionary judgment to be careful in the transition, you can dream as big as you want on the inside, but outside in the next situation it is important to maintain awareness of what is under your control and what isn't. The resultant hexagram completes that theme--Everything has been nurtured inside and now it is time to make the next start though with wisdom not just enthusiasm.

Frank

maremaria · Mar 26, 2008

fkegan said:
Hi Marie,
I didn't catch the full oracle you had in mind in your original post.
.....
Frank

Hi Frank,
Yes I didn’t post the whole reading at the beginnings because I thought I understood the other lines and 24. But 61.6 which sounded part as a warning and maybe a need for a correction putting together with 24 (return) makes me wonder if I had understand the whole meaning well. In othe r word if it was “big mistake !!! come back !!!” or “its ok but be careful” This is why I asked if it is something more about 61.6 and needed to hear your opinions too.

About the moving lines , I used them all and many times the fan yao too.

Thank you for the additional comments

Maria

hollis · Mar 27, 2008

Trojan once wrote something about this line, maybe it was in one of your threads, Maria, that expressed perfectly this oracle, from my experience. Can't remember verbatim what she said, so I wont quote , but I thought it was right on.

I have cried from the heart, fervent sorrow,(regret, longing, etc), and gotten this. Heaven hears the cry, and is annoyed. We can tend to thinks such things are the truth, (poignant regret, etc)., but heaven is over it.

I take the line, just like it says, don't persist in this. If one is using the I Ching for mind/heart cultivation, this is a guide post about matters of the heart.

dobro p · Mar 27, 2008

hollis said:
I have cried from the heart, fervent sorrow,(regret, longing, etc), and gotten this. Heaven hears the cry, and is annoyed.

Heaven is never annoyed at a sincere cry from the heart (59.5). But cockcrow is not about a sincere cry of the heart, it's about something else, and that's why 'misfortune' is attached to 61.6 if you persevere in the 'soaring voice mounting to heaven' attitude. So if in the past you've cried out and received this line, it's life's way of telling you that the ego is involved, maybe to the extent of actually driving the crying out, and vis a vis heaven, it's much less than what you really are. It's like a loud complaint about 'oh woe is me'. There's a better way. See, I don't see it as 'crying out', I see it more as 'complaint' or 'trumpeting'. But definitely egoic.

hollis · Mar 27, 2008

dobro said:
So if in the past you've cried out and received this line, it's life's way of telling you that the ego is involved, maybe to the extent of actually driving the crying out, and vis a vis heaven, it's much less than what you really are. It's like a loud complaint about 'oh woe is me'. There's a better way. See, I don't see it as 'crying out', I see it more as 'complaint' or 'trumpeting'. But definitely egoic.

well, egoic, whatever, it was a sincere confusion, sincerely felt sorrow, and I got the message to move on from it.

Trojina · Mar 27, 2008

hollis said:
Trojan once wrote something about this line, maybe it was in one of your threads, Maria, that expressed perfectly this oracle, from my experience. Can't remember verbatim what she said, so I wont quote , but I thought it was right on.

I have cried from the heart, fervent sorrow,(regret, longing, etc), and gotten this. Heaven hears the cry, and is annoyed. We can tend to thinks such things are the truth, (poignant regret, etc)., but heaven is over it.

I take the line, just like it says, don't persist in this. If one is using the I Ching for mind/heart cultivation, this is a guide post about matters of the heart.

Hi Hollis, I don't remember writing that - i don't think that was me, it doesn't sound like me lol, but i think there is something in the expression of heaven being 'annoyed'. Its not that heaven can be annoyed as such but I always have felt the sense of a 'shut up' in this line like a parent to a child who keeps on " I want that toy I want that that I want I want'. Actually i think it has a slightly humourous edge to it also, like with hex 3 line 6, someone said (may have been you ?) its almost "c'mon its not the end of the world" and in 61.6 its like "you can whine after this as much as you like it won't get you anywhere". In my own experience its always a line I immediately recognise what it refers to and feel a faint embarrassment cos usually its pointing to pining after some desire I'm really taking way too seriously, and I've also noticed it comes up when there is a sense of longing/wishing while casting the coins. Also i feel its one of the times the Yi could be said to refer to itself, thats just my feeling - like in 27.1 where it says something like 'you look at me with your mouth hanging open', I feel this is similar in tone like 'you can call and call over this to me it won't take you there' - just like a roosters call won't take him to heaven.

Anyhow its not bad news it means ones desire is false, it is not sincere, one only thinks its sincere - and thats good news since one can then quit pursuing it

Its great when the Yi can tell you when you are sincere or insincere, it saves alot of time, lol

hollis · Mar 27, 2008

Well I searched, cuz I really thought that Maria had talked about this line before, sorry if you didn't Maria. And, hi there Trojan, but I really thought you said something, yes, out of character for your normal style

but I cant find it and now I feel kinda ...uh, like a cock crowing to heaven.

So. Maybe it's time for a break for me, but I swear to you guys, I was sincere, when I got this line, I swear ta GOD It was SINCERE stuff, straight from the heart

Trojina · Mar 27, 2008

hollis said:
Well I searched, cuz I really thought that Maria had talked about this line before, sorry if you didn't Maria. And, hi there Trojan, but I really thought you said something, yes, out of character for your normal style but I cant find it and now I feel kinda ...uh, like a cock crowing to heaven. So. Maybe it's time for a break for me, but I swear to you guys, I was sincere, when I got this line, I swear ta GOD It was SINCERE stuff, straight from the heart

Yes I know it feels really sincere like your heart is aching just like the mystery person said in that quote you can't find. Actually I think that person was spot on, shame it wasn't me lol. Maybe it was you Hollis, you are channeling your own past self :rofl:

charly · Mar 27, 2008

maremaria said:
Hi ,

I’m stuck and confused with this line.

61.6
“Cockcrow penetrating to heaven.
Perseverance brings misfortune.”
...

Hi, Maria:

H.61 describes a nocturnal trip or a trip by the underworld, a «subrosa» affair.
61.6 announces the end of that strip, warning us about to take dthe exit when it is yet possible. But it is not necessarily bad!

I like very much this cockcrow but I wonder who oppened hid the door of this line.

Different authors see here different sort of birds, not always a rooster, sometimes a phaisan, sometimes another birds. Sspeaking on h.61 Arthur Waley says:

... the whole section is very obscure and, I think, corrupt. Particularily intriguing is the «noise of wings mounting in the sky» of the last clause...
From A.Waley, p129, fom the pdf posted at the Marshall site.

I believed, based in Waley, that han4 meant «feather» or maybe «wing» and yin1 «sound» or «noise», the 61.6 could be translated as:

Feather's noise climbs to sky. To persevere, ominous.

Say, even the noise of a falling feather reaches the sky, even the lowest voice is heard by the Heaven [God]. All process produce a trace, all situacion gives a signal for whom is able to recognize it.

Turning to the cockcrow, the rooster:

Warns lovers on the morning proximity, urge the guy to take the exit.
His voice is loud, his presence proud.

If Heaven can hear even the noise of a feather, how couln't we hear the cockcrow, voice of the rooster? Thus W/B made feather = cockcrow, if we ignore the voice of the cockcrow maybe we shall be no more able to exit unhurt from our nocturnal trip.

If the night doesn't end, bad thing, better turn to the daylight.

...
Did the rooster went beyond limits ?
Is he helpless and asks help from above ?
Did he said something to heaven and now he has to wait for heavens reply ?
...

The Rooster, like the Sun is a cyclical guy.

The Rooster always wants to go beyond limits, but his fly is always short.
Maybe he is not looking for help but giving help.
Rooster like all animal talks with Heaven and, of course, wait for answer.

That's why I like W/B «Cockcrow», it's the «dawn», no bad at all, the end of the night.
If the night doesn't end, no matters what a good night, it's a nightmare. Better to take the exit when warned.

Yours,

Charly

charly · Mar 27, 2008

fkegan said:
...
The cockcrow or rooster crowing at the rising sun is a common image whether and whenever folks raise chickens. There is the folktale of the silly rooster who thinks that he is the sole cause of the sun rising...

Frank:

The rooster makes the sun to rise.

If since you have born, you heard the rooster crowing at the dawn, when it lacks you, you feel that the sun no more rises in the sky.

Yours,:bows:

Charly

fkegan · Mar 27, 2008

61.6 without lines 2 & 5 just in its painful part

Charly,
I've been out in the countryside where chickens were raised, and they don't just crow as the sun rises. At Stillpoint, back in the day, we chanted the sun rise even without a rooster to lead the effort. And the angular momentum astrophysicists insist the sun must appear to rise each morning or the interruption in set up between the Earth's surface and core would "boil the seas, make the hills skip like lambs and the mountains like rams"--and generally cause us all an ultimate bad day.

I suspect you miss the whole situation you remember by the rooster crowing. And feeling living in today's situation, there is no more sunshine is a major hex 61 situation where line 6 is an excellent oracle advice.

Earlier in this thread, the comments on 61.6 were clarified to note the entire oracle was 61.2,5,6 >24. However, now the thread moves on to the special meaning of this line (with or without more lines) when it comes up in an oracle and hurts.

Overall, 61, being one of the final 4 hexagrams has a meaning from its total gestalt. Looking at the line pattern it says INSIDE. The 6th line place is the transition to the NEXT. When the situation is one of turning inward overall, and the specific oracle involves the transition to the next, it is like being awakened from sound sleep or interrupted during meditation, it's jarring and the forced change of attention can be painful.

Frank

mudpie · Mar 28, 2008

so here we have a person who was SINCERE in crying out .....and so maybe the line doesnt have to denote insincerity......it reminds me of the movie, BABE, when the poor duck crowed like a rooster every morning because he was DETERMINED to have a purpose other than ending up as a sunday dinner, he was scared and sincerely afraid of dying, and then he thought if only he could get rid of the new-fangled alarm clock, he'd be safe....
but he annoyed the hell outta the farmer's wife( the powers that be), and then he annoyed the other animals who told him a duck has gotta be a duck......and he was sorta exiled from the group in shame because he caused so much trouble and annoyance.

poor little duck, it didnt matter how sincere his intention was. sometimes ya just gotta accept that you're a duck (in certain situations) and it doesnt matter how long or how hard you crow. you gotta accept your fate. 61.6

dobro p · Mar 28, 2008

trojan said:
Maybe it was you Hollis, you are channeling your own past self

You were joking, but what you said is such an accurate description of ordinary psychology that it's scary.

So, Trojan - what's it feel like to be an unwitting channel of psychological truth?

Trojina · Mar 28, 2008

dobro said:
You were joking, but what you said is such an accurate description of ordinary psychology that it's scary.

So, Trojan - what's it feel like to be an unwitting channel of psychological truth?

Hey less of the 'unwitting'

I used to teach the stuff, some versions of it anyway. I doubt theres any one 'psychological truth' at all, just the pet theories we hold to at the moment.

hollis · Mar 28, 2008

listener said:
poor little duck, it didnt matter how sincere his intention was. sometimes ya just gotta accept that you're a duck (in certain situations) and it doesnt matter how long or how hard you crow. you gotta accept your fate. 61.6

yeah, fois gras. ; )

hollis · Mar 28, 2008

maremaria said:
Thank you all of you .Yes, if I isolate that line, all what you said sounds correct. But in the context of my 61.2.5.6 > 24 makes me wonder if it is just that or/and something else.

Looking it in a very-very simple way
61.2 is Good
61.5 is Good
61.6 is NOT good

In that case (or in a reading like that ) would you seek for a negative meanings or warning in the two first lines also ?

Maria

I do think the over-all reading is very lovely, Inner Truth Returns. It seems a very positive omen, (sometimes the 6th line can really throw one off in a reading). I like to read your blog, Maria, and saw you posted it there.. Perhaps the 'negative', (which really are not so negative, as people have written here) aspects of these lines, are your grist, what you rub up against, in the art making of your blog.

maremaria · Mar 28, 2008

Hi everyone,

Sorry that can not reply to your ideas about 61.6. Wanted to do it yesterday but my connection had some problem and today it is just a BAD day.

Hollis, i think I found the post you were looking for.
Charly I like it a lot what you said "Feather's noise climbs to sky. To persevere, ominous."

Promise i 'll be back

Thank you
Maria

EDIT : Hollis, the link http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4859

scarlett3page · Aug 30, 2017

Wanted to share my unfortunate, literal reading. My chicken vanished from the backyard at dusk. I asked Yi "What are the consequences of me continuing to search for Marla [my chicken]? And received line 61.6

scarlett3page · Aug 31, 2017

Referenced that it was futile to continue to look for her last night, & also probably saying she flew off somewhere! Ascending to heaven didn't reference death as I feared it did, because this afternoon there is she in the backyard! And after I searched every nook & cranny for her...indeed there was no sense in the searching

charly · Sep 1, 2017

scarlett3page said:
Referenced that it was futile to continue to look for her last night, & also probably saying she flew off somewhere! Ascending to heaven didn't reference death as I feared it did, because this afternoon there is she in the backyard! And after I searched every nook & cranny for her...indeed there was no sense in the searching

Hi, Scarlet:

Maybe in your case the last words of 61.6 meant «To divinate is unfortunate», say, God knows all, nothing happens without his permission. Don't worry. Marla went in search of her own adventure that can end returning home or going elsewhere. Don't ask for her till tomorrow. Ask for yourself.

翰音登于天
han4 yin1 deng1 yu2 tian1
FEATHER NOISE CLIMBS TO HEAVEN.
Even a feather's noise is perceived by God.

貞凶
zhen1 xiong1
DIVINATION UNFORTUNATE.
Will know at the proper time.

I'm glad Marla is at home again.

All the best.

Charly
___________________
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