rice baskets

dobro p · May 14, 2008

Rice baskets crop up in 29.4 and 41. But what is a rice basket exactly? Is it the thing used to carry dry rice, or is it a serving dish for cooked rice? Platter, tureen, rice basket - terms often used for gui3 - there's a lot of difference in form and function here. What about just 'bowl'? South Chinese are always going on about their 'rice bowl' meaning 'income and support'.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

Where do you get the word basket from? All the translations say bowl.
Also, in line 29.4 a person stuck in the house would want a bowl of cooked rice not dry uncooked rice, anyway in a time of floods there is little chance of being able to cook the stuff or anywhere to cook it with water running everywhere.

Then in Hex 41 no one gives dried rice to the "gods" when they offer a sacrifice that would be an insult, only cooked rice in a small bowl is given when people make offerings to the other side.

Forgot, a rice basket is made from bamboo and is used for storing dry, uncooked rice, not used very much these days as plastic bins and sacks have taken their place.

dobro p · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
Where do you get the word basket from? All the translations say bowl.

Brad says 'rice basket'.

Karcher says 'platter'.

Shaughnessy says 'tureen'.

Those were just the first three I reached for.

I'm favoring 'rice bowl' but the problem with that is that 'rice bowl' is sort of an individual's eating dish, and if I understand it correctly, 29.4 and 41 refer to something larger, like the big rice bowl that everybody at the table draws from. And it could be bamboo, as far as I know. But that's why I'm asking, cuz I don't know.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

Well, in 29.4 I believe that the word is bowl because the next line speaks of "earthenware vessels", or bowls which are made from clay. Also, the Chinese he plain boiled rice which is not kept in baskets as it would get cold far too quickly. There is a type of "sticky" rice which can sometimes be placed in bamboo baskets but as far as I know this type of rice is or was unavailable in China.

In Hex 41 when one makes an offering it is always done using a very small bowl, just big enough for a tablespoon or two of boiled rice. A rice basket which is generally quite big would never ever be used for this purpose.

So, the word is bowl and not basket, platter, tureen? or bucket.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

dobro said:
and if I understand it correctly, 29.4 and 41 refer to something larger, like the big rice bowl that everybody at the table draws from. And it could be bamboo, as far as I know. But that's why I'm asking, cuz I don't know.

No, it is not referring to something bigger at all.

At a meal everyone has their own bowl from which they eat their rice from, if they want more then they go to the cooking pot and take some more, this was the way it was done in most households and restaurants in ancient China and many people still do it this way today.

As I said before Hex 41 is referring to those little bowls that are available in the market places of Asia specifically for offerings, and the offerings are never big, they are just a token to say that the people are thinking about "them"(gods, ancestors, spirits). I have some of these little bowls so I do know what I am talking about.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

Well, I like to stick to my comment in 41 about the baskets and also to Brad's translation. However, a funny thing happens when you use Google Images to find examples of 簋 (Gui3) and all these Shang and Zhou bronzes come up. Gui is used as the name of a special ceremonial vessel, most likely lidded. Now, for what I've read (I have recently been buying many books on Shang/W.Zhou Bronzes and Oracle Bones) this is how ancient found bronzes have been classified since the Sui and T'ang Dynasties in the imperial collections. Below is a description of the many types of bronze vessels from the W. Zhou era. Third one down in the "food vessels" is a Gui. Perhaps the accepted colloquial meaning of gui3 for bamboo basket may be a modern one. Further down is a round "rice basket/tray" used to carry rice and to separate the grain from the chaff.

In this light "tureen", seems to be a better choice for a contemporary translation (note that Brad, in his matrix, also has 'tureen' for gui3) as it describes a lidded serving vessel.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

I'd like to add that the meaning of "bamboo" comes from the upper part of the character where the radical for bamboo is situated. The modern meaning calls for "a square basket of bamboo for holding grain used at sacrifices". I just cannot make a 100% call on the actual Zhou-time meaning of the character, given its use to also classify a certain kind of bronze vessel.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

The bamboo tray that you have shown is not used for carrying rice, it is used only for separating the grain from the shell, I have seen this used many times.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

Also, when you get to see Chinese people make sacrifices either at home or in the temple then you will understand what they use to put the food and water in, when you have never seen them doing these things then I don't think you are in a good position to comment or consider your opinion right by relying on google for your information.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
The bamboo tray that you have shown is not used for carrying rice, it is used only for separating the grain from the shell, I have seen this used many times.

I did say: "Further down is a round "rice basket/tray" used to carry rice and to separate the grain from the chaff."

Yes, it is used to carry rice also...

willowfox · May 15, 2008

sparhawk said:
Yes, it is used to carry rice also...

Carry rice to where? If you are saying that this tray is used for the transportation of rice from one place to another then you are wrong. Strange as it may seem, I just happen to have one of these bamboo tray things.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
Also, when you get to see Chinese people make sacrifices either at home or in the temple then you will understand what they use to put the food and water in, when you have never seen them doing these things then I don't think you are in a good position to comment or consider your opinion right by relying on google for your information.

Uh?! What did I say above that upset you so? What makes you think I've never seen those things done in temples (and I'm not talking about your big city Chinatown)?? And where did I say above that I was relying on "Google" for my conclusions? The only picture I posted above that referred to a bronze "Gui" comes from a scholarly article, that you are cordially invited to download from my site here: INSCRIPTIONAL RECORDS OF THE WESTERN ZHOU

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
Carry rice to where? If you are saying that this tray is used for the transportation of rice from one place to another then you are wrong. Strange as it may seem, I just happen to have one of these bamboo tray things.

And I'm sure you use it to separate your rice from the husk...

willowfox · May 15, 2008

sparhawk said:
And I'm sure you use it to separate your rice from the husk...

In actual fact I used it to separate my oats from some bugs that had gotten into the packet.

Anyway, I buy my rice in a sack already cleaned and ready to throw in the steamer.

willowfox · May 15, 2008

sparhawk said:
Uh?! What did I say above that upset you so? What makes you think I've never seen those things done in temples (and I'm not talking about your big city Chinatown)?? And where did I say above that I was relying on "Google" for my conclusions?

You gave the impression that you did not know what you were talking about and had to rely on google for your information.

So, I suppose you have been to a Chinese home or temple in China or maybe Malaysia , perhaps Singapore and seen how offerings are done in the flesh so to speak, and paid special attention to what type of "bowls" they use, where they stick the incense etc.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
You gave the impression that you did not know what you were talking about and had to rely on google for your information.

So, I suppose you have been to a Chinese home or temple in China or maybe Malaysia , perhaps Singapore and seen how offerings are done in the flesh so to speak, and paid special attention to what type of "bowls" they use, where they stick the incense etc.

As I matter of fact, I've been three times to Singapore and four times to Hong Kong. Yes I've always made point of visiting the local temples.

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

BTW, you may remember that Dobro also used to live in Singapore, a while ago...

Sparhawk · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
You gave the impression that you did not know what you were talking about and had to rely on google for your information.

BTW 2.0, the point of the Google "exercise" was to use the single Chinese character (gui3) and find out what its contemporary use was. I was surprised that many of those hits referred to actual ancient bronze vessels as opposed to "bamboo baskets," which is the current dictionary definition of gui3.

dobro p · May 15, 2008

willowfox said:
dobro said:

I'm favoring 'rice bowl' but the problem with that is that 'rice bowl' is sort of an individual's eating dish, and if I understand it correctly, 29.4 and 41 refer to something larger, like the big rice bowl that everybody at the table draws from. And it could be bamboo, as far as I know. But that's why I'm asking, cuz I don't know.

Click to expand...

No, it is not referring to something bigger at all.

At a meal everyone has their own bowl from which they eat their rice from, if they want more then they go to the cooking pot and take some more, this was the way it was done in most households and restaurants in ancient China and many people still do it this way today.

As I said before Hex 41 is referring to those little bowls that are available in the market places of Asia specifically for offerings, and the offerings are never big, they are just a token to say that the people are thinking about "them"(gods, ancestors, spirits). I have some of these little bowls so I do know what I am talking about.

Yes, I do think you know what you're talking about, and it makes sense to me. But when I lived in Singapore, the rice was served at table in a large bowl, sometimes with a cover to keep it hot, and people helped themselves from it and filled their own smaller, individual rice bowls - that's why I was unsure about the size and nature of the vessel. Also, all of this personal experience of how Chinese eat rice nowadays is suggestive, of course, but not necessarily the same as what's being described in the Yi, which goes back to Zhou times.

bradford · May 16, 2008

I understood the Gui to be a simple basket of woven bamboo,
different than the cast tureen and used for less formal occasions.
I can't cite a specific source - that was just where the bulk of
my sources converged. "Not a really big deal" as in "Not your best
China" seems to be part of the intended meaning in its use here.
The container, the ritual, the substance of the sacrifice are all
secondary to simplicity and sincerity.

Sparhawk · May 16, 2008

bradford said:
I understood the Gui to be a simple basket of woven bamboo,
different than the cast tureen and used for less formal occasions.
I can't cite a specific source - that was just where the bulk of
my sources converged. "Not a really big deal" as in "Not your best
China" seems to be part of the intended meaning in its use here.
The container, the ritual, the substance of the sacrifice are all
secondary to simplicity and sincerity.

Hi Brad,

I posted something similar in the 41 thread, here. That's more or less what I thought. I was taken aback though by the coincidence of the character gui3 coming up with all those examples of actual bronze gui's and almost no examples of "bamboo baskets" or baskets, period.

bradford · May 16, 2008

sparhawk said:
Hi Brad,

I posted something similar in the 41 thread, here. That's more or less what I thought. I was taken aback though by the coincidence of the character gui3 coming up with all those examples of actual bronze gui's and almost no examples of "bamboo baskets" or baskets, period.

The problem is that the woven Gui are not going to survive the elements for 3000 years
to then be put on display in museums and photographed for our edification.

Sparhawk · May 16, 2008

bradford said:
The problem is that the woven Gui are not going to survive the elements for 3000 years
to then be put on display in museums and photographed for our edification.

Good point, indeed. Now, do you know of any records depicting its use in sacrifices (I mean other than the one you interpreted from the text of the Yi...) As I said above, recently I've been buying a lot of books on Shang/Zhou bronzes and OBI, plus all the journal articles I have. Lots of reading to do but so far I've not seen any mention of it.

BTW, I used Google to find examples of the current use of the character gui3, fully expecting to find lots of "baskets of bamboo," its more common contemporary dictionary meaning, to post a picture here, and the surprise was that most were depictions of bronze vessels. So, it appears that, lacking the proper colloquial context, its imagery and use as a noun, of 簋, even today, defaults to that kind of bronze vessel. That was an interesting and unexpected find.

willowfox · May 17, 2008

dobro said:
Y But when I lived in Singapore, the rice was served at table in a large bowl, sometimes with a cover to keep it hot, and people helped themselves from it and filled their own smaller, individual rice bowls - that's why I was unsure about the size and nature of the vessel.

This method of placing the rice in a large bowl and put on the dinner table is only seen in quite wealthy households which have a dining room and where there are servants to wait at the table, no ordinary households do it this way, as all us common folk eat our meals in or around the kitchen and like I said before we just go to the steamer for another scoop. We use bowls like they did in ancient times because pottery has been around for thousands of years, just check out your local museum.

charly · May 29, 2008

willowfox said:
... placing the rice in a large bowl and put on the dinner table is only seen in quite wealthy households... no ordinary households do it this way... We use bowls like they did in ancient times because pottery has been around for thousands of years...

Willowfox:

I don't remember to have read GUI applied to pottery, I have in mind only two uses:

GUI/BASKET, a round basket used for grains in agricultural offerings or popular feast.
GUI/TUREEN, a Zhou sacrificial bronze tureen with lid and scriptures for offering food to the Royal Ancestors.
But maybe there were GUI/POTTERY, forms and designs passed from baskets to pottery and from pottery to bronzes.

I believe that the ambiguity is intentional. Maybe the YI is speaking of the sort of GUI that best applies to our case.

See that the YI doesn't speak of RICE, coocked or not, we put the sort of FOOD that best applies to our case.

If we are powerful Kings or Dukes, say Zhou Kings, we must use great ceremonial bronzes filled with meat because WE HAVE IT, a more humble offering could be seen as stingy by our Noble Ancestors.
If we are poor peasants eating rice and only rice, we may use little pots with rice.

I believe that in the text, more important than the food or the container is another thing: to be generous with our offerings, to offer the best that we have and to retrieve the best for ourselves.

The key is, maybe, the number TWO, neither too few (ONE) nor too much (THREE).
I wonder why is better two small than one great, I have two possibilities:

In times of diminishing better we put the double, better to double our offerings.
In times of diminishing, better to retrieve the sense of abondance, with the little means at our hands.

Yours,

Charly
__________________________

P.D.: There are also other possibilities:

GUI could stand for another word of similar sound, like

GUI / BRIDE (as in GUI MEI) > GIRL > WOMAN,
GUI / SPIRIT > DEMON > SHAMAN > SHAMANKA > WOMAN
GUI / PEOPLE > FOREIGNER > STRANGER ... &

Or it can act as methonimy o as metaphor:

GUI/BASKET > the one that bears basket [methonimy] > WOMAN
GUI/TUREEN > WOMB [metphor] > WOMAN

Maybe the YI is speaking of women, maybe it's saying us:

«You know, better use two women for the sacrifice»
Ancient chinese were polygamous, when they could.

Ch.

willowfox · May 29, 2008

charly said:
Willowfox:

I don't remember to have read GUI applied to pottery, I have in mind only two uses:

GUI/BASKET, a round basket used for grains in agricultural offerings or popular feast.

GUI/TUREEN, a Zhou sacrificial bronze tureen with lid and scriptures for offering food to the Royal Ancestors.

But maybe there were GUI/POTTERY, forms and designs passed from baskets to pottery and from pottery to bronzes.

See that the YI doesn't speak of RICE, coocked or not, we put the sort of FOOD that best applies to our case.

The bamboo basket is generally used for keeping grain, but can be used for keeping cooked "sticky" rice which was probably not available in China.
The tureen made from bronze would be only available to high class families with money.
So the ordinary people would have used pottery bowls. Or the extremely poor would have probably put there food in banana leaves.

As for presenting food for a sacrifice, only cooked rice, meat would have been used as the "gods" wanted a ready to eat meal.

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