Hi all,

I'm hoping you guys can help me understand secondary hexagrams better.

The main confusion I'm having is understanding what the purpose is for secondary hexagrams? Are they read as what will happen in the situation, i.e., primary hexagram - situation as it stands.....secondary hexagram - what will happen (the outcome)?

Thanks!

Hi Ddely,

from previous discussion here I got that it can either be what you describe (present to future, with changing lines reveal the intermediate steps) or relating hex. describing the context of the situation, the environment where the first hexagram appears. I don't think there is a rule to know about when each of the two applies, I guess it is up to how you see the answers fit with what you know already.

A hypothesis I've been thinking recently is that perhaps when taking relating hex. as context, then it might make more sense to see the fan yao line rather than the changing ones in the 1st hex. but I may be waaaay wrong with that (I'm still looking into it)

if you do a search in the forums though I'm sure you'll run into more complete and erudite answers from people working for many years on similar questions . .

rodaki

Hi

There is no easy answer to this one... and at times, with some readings, I am still uncertain.

Here is how I do it:

I always read the secondary hexagram first... Look at it, feel it in relation to the circumstances of the question. Does it feel like now?

If it does see it as the overall situation and the primary hexagram is then the precise situation and advice.

If it does not... Then look at the Primary hexagram... does that feel like the situation now? If so the secondary hexagram is the direction of movement... sometimes a warning and sometimes the outcome if the advice of the promary hexagram and lines is followed.

Only after deciding this do I know how these too parts relate... and then I go into more depth with moving lines and more. As per Rodaki... and adding Crossline Omens as my preferred method here... but then i would wouldn't I?


Hope this helps.

Thank you both very much for helping me.

The scholarly opinion can be read in the posting of hmensker here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5287&page=8

But it's in my opinion contradicted by this divination story named Min 1 of Zuo Zhuan:

"At an earlier period, Bi Wan had divined by the milfoil about his becoming an officer of Jin and obtained the diagram Zhun [hex3], and afterwards, by the manipulation, Bi [hex8]. Xin Liau interpreted it to be lucky. "Zhun," he said, "indicates firmness, and Bi indicates entering. What could be more fortunate? He must become numerous and prosperous. Moreover, the symbol Zhen [lower trigram of Zhun] becomes that for the earth [the lower trigram of Bi]. Carriages and horses follow one another; he has feet to stand on; an elder brother’s lot; the protection of a mother, and is the attraction of the multitudes. These six indications [arising from the change of the lowest line in the diagram Zhun] will not change. United, they indicate his firmness; in their repose, they indicate his majesty."

There's no "timeline A to B" in this ancient reading. The change is (as Rutt says) described as a change from one trigram to another trigram, but the primary and the secondary hexagrams are read equal to one another.

lienshan

Throwing in another pennyworth. Sharing not flaring.

For me: Divination is a skill, an art. Scholarship is a study – a penetrating into what the Yi has meant to different people of the millennia... and it changed much over the millennia. I like both.

There is definitely no single original work, nor is there a ‘true’ perspective, meaning or approach. An academic approach would say this author at this point in time believed this. Additionally such an academic might also look at the political forces of the time... Wang Bi (brilliant young man of his time) developed and redacted a Confucian perspective, later to be adopted by the Neo Confucian’s. However there were different versions of Yi and we can bet our bottom brass coin with a square hole diviners were just as perverse and individual then as they are now.

An academic approach is great, as is Harmen, (he is wondrous at what he does), but I think we need to be careful about trying to find ‘the truth’ the 'real way'... it simply changed from time to time and a lot was lost along the way... Even our understanding of the milfoil technique is a ‘best guess’.

Back to divination... Over many years (think of an embarrassingly big number) I have worked with folk who divine with Yi... So many times I came accross folk who had very unusual ideas about a hexagram or line... However an interesting thing... Yi seems to talk to them knowing how they will ‘misunderstand’ a text. I have had this many times myself... As I developed different views, images and ideas about a hexagram or line. My readings seem to reflect my currentbelief.

Essentially... You cannot get it wrong... this is the way of divination. Most heated arguments stem from folk having different ideas about a hexagram or line which they know to be true, from experience. But a lover will talk to different people in different ways... tuning the words to them.

My suggestion is to feel your way into the reading and - Have Confidence – Yi will find a way to help you understand.

The academic stuff is great... but it is not about divination.

Oh, and divination without a direction of change is like a car without wheels... and a timeline is different thing all together.

The earliest known explanation of the Yi timeline is from Shuo Gua (the 8th wing), chapter 2, §3 :

Counting what's going depends of the forewards movement
Knowing what's comeing depends of the backwards movement
That's why the Book of Changes has backwards moving numbers

These ancient lines do not speak of the primary and secondary hexagrams... or do they? If so, then
the movement from primary hexagram to secondary hexagram is what is going into the past, while
the movement from secondary hexagram to primary hexagram is what is to come!

lienshan

A far more reasonable reading of the Shuo Gua quote is, that the "backwards moveing numbers" are
describing, that a hexagram is build from below, because the lines are divided into six places named
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, but normally read 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 from top to bottom. This explains how to deal with
multiple changing lines: when two or more lines are changing, then the movement from a line below
to a line above is a forewards movement, that'll say what's going into the past, while the movement
from a line above to a line below is a backwards movement, that'll say what is to come.

This puts the multiple changing lines on an internal timeline, somewhat similar to the method used
by ancient professional diviners, when they treat the changes as internal changes between trigrams.

lienshan