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Grandma · Dec 14, 2008

I received an email from someome that was quite upsetting.
I got 62.4-15
According to Wilhelm the line's advice is not to do anything, but to persevere inwardly.
from his comments:
The situation here calls for extreme caution; one must make no
attempt of one's own initiative to reach the desired end. And if one were to
go on, endeavoring one must be on guard and not act but continue inwardly
to persevere.

I will be seeing this person for Christmas, so I can follow the advice of not replying, but it will be akward seeing them at Christmas.It also seems to say to be on guard and maybe not to take the initiative to reconcile with this person?
Inwardly persevere: Why does it mention this?
Does anyone have any insight about this reading?

em ching · Dec 14, 2008

Well, it strikes me from reading this interpretation :

9 at 4: Without fault. Not passing (but) meeting him. To proceed is dangerous, it is necessary to be on guard. Do not use a long-lasting determination.
Panicking and running away from a danger causes often just the opposite: getting deeper in. Be on guard and flexible, evaluate the situation because it is dangerous. But facing it is safer than turning one’s back on it.
(from Lise's site)

That it isn't your fault
Perhaps he is in a bad place and just taking his anger out on you... and so, with modesty, perhaps to remain humble and try and take your pride out of it, but defend yourself and find out what's wrong, so as not to increase distrust and alienation in the mean time by staying silent and harbouring the negitivity towards them... perhaps a reaction woud show this person you care... that is if you do care about them? Perhaps they are feeling neglected by you recently which is why they are on the offensive? So definitely find out what's wrong and defend yourself but don't fight fire with fire, as he is the stronger one here (I mean that only in light of the fact that he is the one that has attacked you)

Hope that helps!
:bows:

Grandma · Dec 14, 2008

Em,
Your answer is really great.
It's funny you got that he was the one who attacked me when I didn't mention that it felt very much like an attack.
The letter is from my son, I have been having alot of problems with him for a long time. For you to write that it isn't my fault feels so good. I wish I could tell the whole story because I really need help with this. Suffice to say I was emotionally abused by his father and still suffer from the abuse, right now I am unemployed and my son laid a big guilt trip on me for that, even though I still manage to pay all my expenses. I live by myself, not with him or anyone else for that matter. My son wrote and said did I want to go in on a fairly expensive gift for his sister. I said, I don't have the money, after the holidays I can get gifts, but thanks for thinking about your sister. Also, his sister had mentioned that why don't we this year put a $25.00 limit on gifts for each other, since no one really needs anything.I mentioned this to him. He wrote back, that he didn't think I had the money for gifts but that I was hurting him by my financial problems, and that I should be ashamed that I can't get something for my daughter who needs things. Also that his girlfriend would chip in for my daughter's gift.
(he wanted to get her a couch or a tv, she doesn't want a new tv, and she and I talked about her getting a used couch sometime (she likes thrift shop things) If he felt I didn't have money for gifts (my son is 27, my daughter is 24) why did he suggest I go in on an expensive gift? She certainly doesn't need a tv or a couch that badly.

em ching · Dec 15, 2008

I suppose there's no quick fix in making things right (the little steps of 62 I guess) but I do think you should talk to him, acknowledge where his annoyance is coming from but explain your position, and rationalize with him as you have done here, then hopefully things will be good again in time for Christmas!

Perhaps your son is taking negtive energy out on you, because he trusts you (you always hurt the ones you love etc). It seems like he wants you all to have a good Christmas but it sounds like he's being unreasonable in his demands of you, and that you are being advised to stick to your guns, but also to appease him. Sounds like you've been through a lot and you deserve a good Christmas so maybe remind him that it's more important that you're together and have good food and drink! Rather than focusing on material possessions which is after all not the meaning of Christmas...

:bows:

Grandma · Dec 15, 2008

"so maybe remind him that it's more important that you're together and have good food and drink! Rather than focusing on material possessions which is after all not the meaning of Christmas... "

Gee em, you really have been a wonderful help here. I read and read all the different online i chings and I couldn't see what you did.

One seem to say don't do anything and then Lise's said face it straight on. I do think Lise's and your interpretation are correct and in the spirit of the i ching's answer. My son cannot accept that I (and himself and his sister) were abused by their father. He sees us as both being wrong, bad parents and "childish". He has told me I am not to bring up this aspect in conversations with him about myself. I think that this is the sticking to my guns thing, to not back down from this fact and try to slowly get this across to him. It isn't easy, but it's part of the dynamic in abused families (that some are in denial).
Appease him-tell him how sorry I am that my financial situation has caused him pain (I think he is worried). Acknowledge his pain without giving up my stand on the issue.

What is the 15 part of the answer? give to what is empty and take from what is full? how does this relate? I've been getting 15 alot lately and I keep trying to relate that message in it but I am having trouble.
You've been great, em! Thanks so much. I feel much better. You've been a great help.

willowfox · Dec 15, 2008

Line 62.4 says that you have to be very strong minded and very cautious in what you say to him. So, you will have to reply but this time just say that you don't have the money and that your daughter has no immediate need of anything at all, so discussion is closed. Then if he brings up the subject in a further email, then just ignore completely, do not get into anymore discussions about it.

Hex 15 says that you need to deal with this situation but do not be swayed by unrealistic demands and do not make a song and dance out of it, so keep cool and stand your ground.

Grandma · Dec 15, 2008

Willowfox,
What about the main part of his letter where he is saying all these things to me and about me? Should I ignore it? This is part of his letter:
"This is a new low for you, and I hope you have reached rock bottom and can move up from this.

I have an exam on Monday so please do not call me. I do not mind that you cannot buy me a Christmas present and suspected that you would not be able to. However, it kind of sickens me that you cannot do anything for x who could use some things. I hope and pray that not being able to give your child a Christmas gift provides an impetus for you to do something with your life. Do not cry about this or get angry, refocus your energy and try to find some motivation to do something. "

I should add that 7 years ago my daughter and I were in a car accident and she was left parlazed from the waist down. She had gone on to college and is making a great life for herself. But she doesn't need anything at the moment except more money as she lives on a tight budget. I was the main emotional support for her during much of this time and I left my job to care for her, now I am having a very hard time finding work, I haven't had work for 3 months.

willowfox · Dec 15, 2008

Your son sounds rather an unpleasant person and should be told not to be so rude, at 27 years of age he should have learnt to have much more respect for his mother. I am afraid if I was his mother then I would tell him to get lost and have no further contact with him until he behaved like a understanding adult and not as an arrogant, condescending pig.

Anyway, there is no point in getting into any type of discussion with him as he is never going to see your point of view, so stop defending yourself and just tell him like I said before, that you don't have the money, your not a millionaire and your daughter has no need of a TV or couch, end of story. After you have said the above then ignore all and any further discussion about it, if he is rude again quit emailing him. Anyway, isn't this whole concept of giving presents at christmas both very childish and completely unnecessary.

angelatlantis · Dec 15, 2008

Dear Susan,
I have not been on this forum for a long time, but after reading your query, I felt much moved to reply to you. Sounds like you are having a hard time right now, in many ways, and I really feel for you. So many things to deal with... in any case, here is how I would interpret these answers:
62/4 says to be on guard, but also to be steadfast and upright. So, your impulse to keep to your position and tell your son that you cannot afford an expensive gift right now, seems like the right thing to do. Also, I interpret being on guard as a warning to not get further involved into this situation that your son is creating - my impression from the quotes you have been sending, and the description you have given is that your son is creating this "drama" in order to validate some point that has nothing to do with what this is outwardly about (presents), and that is probably related to the past. You wrote that your daughter by her own accord has now immediate need of any of the expensive things that he is suggesting, so why would he need to get upset when she is not?
Hex 15 is about modesty, and I think that is further conformation for you that you are doing the right thing - not live above your means, which would surely bring about even more problems.
Other than that I agree with Willowfox, in that it is unlikely that your son, at least at the present point will be persuaded by rational argument about the validity of your position. There seem to be deep issues that keep him from seeing reality. I don't know your family at all, but I think too, that for now, just ignoring this type of discussion seems like the only thing to do.
I hope things work out for you!
best wishes
Annette

jesed · Dec 15, 2008

Dear Susan

please check pm

maremaria · Dec 15, 2008

Hi Susan,

My impression is that the root of this anger is not the the Christmas gift.
Read the part of your son’s letter and the only thing I hear is a cry “Do something !!!” As you said , he is an abused kid. Maybe his cruelty is his defense mechanism to survive .
I heard someone saying. “how lucky are those parents that they hear from their children hard words. May those words make them think “why my child says that to me , and what really wants to say”

Maria

jesed · Dec 15, 2008

Hi Maria

:bows:

maremaria · Dec 15, 2008

Hi Jesed

Grandma · Dec 15, 2008

Thanks everyone for your help. I am trying to calm down from what he wrote and not react emotionally.

I was thinking to write back and say his sister doesn't need an expensive item but that if he would like to pay her cell phone for a year (he owes her money and she has often told me she wishes he would do this as a start of the repayment) He is a college student, and has offered to pay it back all at once but she didn't really pursue that. The other thing is she and I discussed the couch issue and she can find one cheaply and she likes those kinds of things too, (used furniture) but her problem is getting it in her apartment as she can't help move it. The two people she would most feel comfortable asking is myself and him. It is not practical for me to help as I am not strong, but if he could give a gift of his time to come and help her move the couch (the maintenace people in her apartment would help also) once she finds one it would be really great for her. So I was thinking of suggesting those two things to him and also saying Christmas is about being together and spending nice times witih each other.
For now I don't know how to address the other issues with him (my lack of employment)
Is that in keeping with the reading?

em ching · Dec 15, 2008

Well,

I don't think you should ignore the letter, but re-iterate your position and don't back down, and then perhaps say how much you're looking forward to seeing him over Christmas and then leave it at that. It does seem absurd that he is using his sister as an excuse to be angry with you, when she isn't even bothered about presents... so maybe he just wants attention

:bows:

Grandma · Dec 15, 2008

Maybe, he does want attention.

Grandma · Dec 16, 2008

So I wrote a letter addressing the issue of him buying a $400 couch for his sister.
I said it was a kind thoughtful gesture but I don't think she even wants something like that and maybe he could give the gift of time and effort by helping her when she finds one she likes getting it into her apartment or if he would rather spend money pay her cell phone for a few months.
I then said ask her yourself, maybe I am wrong and she would like that couch but also the economy is in bad shape and it's too expensive a gift.
I mentioned his sister really appreciates when he does things for her (he just put a door on her apartment at Thanksgiving, the maintenance man would have done it) as she can't do these things for herself. It seems like nothing but my daughter is stressed by having to ask people for simple things all day long, she can't reach things in stores, during rush hour for the bus she has to wait for the least crowded ones, her life is tough so little things that her brother can do for her are priceless cause she doesn't have to ask her friends to do them or strangers.
I didn't talk about the other issues but I told him I would address it later.

...life can be translucent

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