How much specificity can you wring out of the I Ching?

bostonian · May 2, 2009

Hi

I had asked the I Ching if a certain very important thing will occur, and I got a very relevant and positive response which greatly heartened me. This is a one-time precipitous event, not a gradual movement towards something. There is no actual time limit on the event -- it could theoretically happen any time. But the longer it takes, the harder it is for me to handle certain aspects of my life; so obviously, I want it to happen as quickly as possible. It's been over two weeks now since the positive I Ching reading, and that event has not happened, and I'm beginning to feel discouraged. So today, I asked the I-Ching when this event will happen and I got 3.5.6 Difficulty at the Beginning. Since the event is pretty much out of my hands, I think that means it will be difficult for me to keep my morale up during the period before the event. But is there any way i can get a specific answer as to when it will happen?

meng · May 2, 2009

bostonian, you ask very good questions. The kind that usually draws all sorts of answers, some conflicting. I have an opinion for everything you've asked, but I can't prove it's so across the board. It works for me.

Personally, I think this is probably what Yi answered to:

Since the event is pretty much out of my hands, I think that means it will be difficult for me to keep my morale up during the period before the event.

The key (in line 5) is to put enough effort and care into it, but not too much, otherwise you have the sorrow of line 6, and then just give up. 3 is the beginning of creation, and everything is trying to have a form. Keep working at it, but be patient.

bostonian · May 2, 2009

Thanks Meng

I think you nailed it.

hilary · May 2, 2009

Yes - the I Ching doesn't have a consistent, built-in way of asking questions about calendar dates. (There are systems for extrapolating these from hexagrams... where's Jesed these days?... but I've never tested them out systematically.) What it will do is describe the quality of the time of an event: 'It'll happen when these things are true.'

If what you're really challenged by is the things you need to handle in the meantime, it might be good to ask about them directly.

bostonian · May 2, 2009

If what you're really challenged by is the things you need to handle in the meantime, it might be good to ask about them directly.

Ah yes, of course. Thanks

proserpine · May 3, 2009

Hex.3 Difficulty at the beginning.Timing

Bostonian, I think also H.3 could be telling you that it is just taking time to get started--it was answering to your worry or nervous impatience

.
But just for information, John Blofeld's translation, while not thriling, does have a number of intersting tables in the back-among them one in which the time can be figured out! It was the very 1st one I bought, it was 1969 and I didn't understand a lot of it- ;-)-but--I have found the 'table of time' to be true.Sometimes though--it is obviously way off from the second i see it--and I know that I'm not asking the right question, or, my desire will not be fulfilled as I want it to be.

proserpine · May 3, 2009

Hilary from Karen--the timing of an event

Hilary:"What it will do is describe the quality of the time of an event: 'It'll happen when these things are true."
Hilary--I understand what you're describing, but how exactly does it do this?

hilary · May 4, 2009

So you find Blofeld's time-tables (!) reliable? That's interesting to hear.

(Jesed also has a way of reading dates from hexagrams, which I'm sure he's explained in some post somewhere on this forum. Does anyone have a link to the details?)

Hilary--I understand what you're describing, but how exactly does it do this?

Probably just like you're imagining, by painting a picture of a time in which it can happen - I suppose you could call it a time that resonates with what you're asking about. Inventing an example at random:
'When will I get married?'
61.2. When you make that soul connection like the crane, and when you can pour yourself out like wine.
or
43 unchanging. When you decide to bring your own message...

...and so on...

Grandma · May 4, 2009

Jesed gives a link on this thread to another thread at his 3rd or 4th post

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=5678

hilary · May 5, 2009

Thank you for finding that!

proserpine · May 5, 2009

Quote:
Hilary--I understand what you're describing, but how exactly does it do this?
Hilary answers-
"Probably just like you're imagining, by painting a picture of a time in which it can happen - I suppose you could call it a time that resonates with what you're asking about. Inventing an example at random:
'When will I get married?'
61.2. When you make that soul connection like the crane, and when you can pour yourself out like wine.
or
43 unchanging. When you decide to bring your own message...

...and so on..."
__________________
Yes, I did think as much,true but thank you very much for illustrating it for me Hil, because it makes it so much that clearer for me.

rickmatz · May 6, 2009

It's human nature to want clear, unambiguous answers from whomever (or whatever) we elect as an authority, sort of letting ourselves off the hook for our decisions. I don't think a healthy life works very well that way, and my understanding of the I Ching throws it back on YOU, because YOU are the one who has to make the interpretations.

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

hilary said:
Yes - the I Ching doesn't have a consistent, built-in way of asking questions about calendar dates. (There are systems for extrapolating these from hexagrams... where's Jesed these days?... but I've never tested them out systematically.) What it will do is describe the quality of the time of an event: 'It'll happen when these things are true.'

If what you're really challenged by is the things you need to handle in the meantime, it might be good to ask about them directly.

It has a consistent calender date just not by the method of you guys are learning. In fact Yi-Ching can predict so precisely down to the year, month, and date. It can even predict down to 2 hours approximation period depend on how your question is ask. If you want to know about it you must learn the Chinese lunar calender year, month, date first. For example everyone knows it is the ox year this year. However does anyone know that right now it is the 己丑 year symbolizing the year of bursting fire. Chinese lunar calender repeats every sixty years. This month is May so it is the 己巳月, today is may 18 so it is 癸亥day. Thus each line of i-ching symbolizes a time, which it is not written in the i-ching book but only passed along the master. Through careful interpretation, one can exactly predict the future by knowing if the answer is yes/no to one's question also when exactly it will happen. It might also offer bonus information such as where exactly it will happen, who is the key players to the event. If you ask for sickness, it will tell you approximation where in the body part is your problem for example digestion system. This is why I-ching is so complex and take years of practice to become a true master.

enmedio de la tierra · May 18, 2009

chiahsieh said:
However does anyone know that right now it is the 己丑 year symbolizing the year of bursting fire.

A lot of people knows that

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

Well... I don't know the level in this community.... there is a point for me to tell you guys that it is useful. It just can you make use of such information to make prediction not as of philosophy of how one should act but really use if to find out when/how/where/who/what will really happen

hilary · May 18, 2009

Yes... this is a diverse community, where some are students of prediction systems and some are students of the text; some are more drawn to prediction than others. I see you're already finding some of them in 'Shared Readings', which is very welcome. Hopefully we can encourage the people asking the questions to come back and let everyone know how things turned out.

enmedio de la tierra · May 18, 2009

hilary said:
where some are students of prediction systems and some are students of the text

Actually, predictions can be made both with the text analysis and the symbolic analysis such as najia.

It seems that Chiahsie uses some version of the najia system. It is interesting.

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

Well...there are 3 main ways from the ancient time to make predictions. Chinese people are interesting, they like to put a lot of false teaching into the real teaching because they don't want others to find out their secret, which is really really sad. The elementary way is reading according to the meaning of hex and lines, I called it the philosophical way. I used this way in my beginning of study very long time ago...but I abandoned it because I'm not a philosophical person, I prefer to do things the logical way. If I want to do a philosophical reading, I rather play with the tarot card (yeah I know it sounds like a joke but I mean it). I only use the meaning of hex and lines for making interpretation to people's name now... that's probably the most use I found of it. Which still remain fairly accurate.

The second way is the plum flower method invent by a master from Sung Dynasty. He can make prediction what would happen next through falling tree branches, number of bird chirps and dog barks, etc. This method requires a lot of creativity for example do a reading base on the breaking of shoe laces. I'm not an expert on this, so I won't comment too much. However, it is fairly useful on special occasion. I uses it when I experience something unexpected. For example I can determine that I will be receiving estates gain from some guy with the last name of Lin base on an Earthquakes happen in my residence.

The third method is what I use and what many masters use, it is the 6 lines najia. This is ancient method absolutely not novel, so please don't give me the credit for it. Each line represent symbols, elements, dates, etc. Calculated according to year, month, date. So imagine there are six lines for 64 hex. Depend on the question ask you use different line, and each line might represent different scenario and people. Then there are different type of year, month, plus 365 dates. Also imagine the possible question that people might ask. Ex: sickness, marriage, love, friendship, lost item, parents, pets, stock, real estate, feng shui. You name it, I got some really weird ones throughout the years. Sorry this math is beyond my level, but it really gives it infinite amount of possible outcomes. I can't go in more details because I also swear before my master not to pass it along before he take me in as student. (blamed on the stupid rule)

Rule of thumb...philosophical way gives me guidance what to act treat it as a strategy book, plum flower tells me possible unexpected situation, najia tells me what will happen in the future.

Trojina · May 18, 2009

chiahsieh said:
Well... I don't know the level in this community.... there is a point for me to tell you guys that it is useful. It just can you make use of such information to make prediction not as of philosophy of how one should act but really use if to find out when/how/where/who/what will really happen

Doesn't that presuppose that the way one acts has no impact on what 'will really happen' ?

What I mean is if what i do directly affects what happens then surely i've more need to know how to act than what will happen if what happens depends on me ?

Things don't always depend on ones actions of course and I'm often suprised how often the Yi seems to give prediction when I am asking a 'how to' question...sometimes it seems my input is not required...i'm just a leaf floating downstream rather than doing the paddling

or more likley a leaf floating downstream paddling wildly anyway....

enmedio de la tierra · May 18, 2009

Najia is not so secret teaching now (altough there is some truth in the statement "false teaching into the real teaching ").

The most accurate Yi' student I'd know, used to combine text analysis with najia. Very impresive.

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

Hi enmedio de la tierra,
Well...it is still indeed secretive, consider even my master tend to hide a lot things from me... I need to spend years just to find out a very relatively simple answer, which completely annoys me. I personally never attempt to combine text analysis with najia, I'm not sure if you are familiar with najia. However, even if someone get something like hex 12, according to the meaning of the text it is not well. But, depend on the question ask it might actually be very positive reading in najia. Most people will say hex/line meaning is completely thrown out of picture, and few people may be using it. Thus, regarding such combination, I have no answer to this question... I need to experiment on some various reading with great ranges of question to find the real answer.

Regarding the some truth to inserting false teaching, I think it is completely true. I just hated when my master always taught me the wrong teaching first no matter in i-ching, fortune telling, or feng shui... after I get really familiar with it, then he will tell me it's false, and tell me to start learning all over. Thus just in Feng Shui itself, a lot of methods that people are familiar with are completely false. I-ching is the study with less false insertion, but believe me they tell you the general direction and changes the tiniest details of it and throw you off completely.

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

Well, I have difficult understand what you mean... that's why I hate philosophical approach... I mean it is just so not straightforward. However, it does not presuppose that the way one acts has no impact on what 'will really happen' It only means that if you continue in the same thinking, same environment, same course of action, same key players, and etc. The future will be this way; however, once you believe you made enough course of change or the physical world has experience a change, then you really need to do a new i-ching reading again because your side of the equation is no longer balanced anymore. Does that make sense, there is future to your current course of action, but it is not the destined result...

trojan said:
Doesn't that presuppose that the way one acts has no impact on what 'will really happen' ?

What I mean is if what i do directly affects what happens then surely i've more need to know how to act than what will happen if what happens depends on me ?

Things don't always depend on ones actions of course and I'm often suprised how often the Yi seems to give prediction when I am asking a 'how to' question...sometimes it seems my input is not required...i'm just a leaf floating downstream rather than doing the paddling

or more likley a leaf floating downstream paddling wildly anyway....

meng · May 18, 2009

Chiahsieh,

What if you have little or no interest in knowing your future, or using the Yijing in such a way? Do those "rules" still apply, in your opinion?

chiahsieh · May 18, 2009

If someone has little or no interest in knowing your future, then why he or she ask the Yi-Ching in the first place? People who is confident and knows what's going on in life won't come to us for reading because they tend to be quite satisfied with life. Many of my friends study Yi-ching as self improvement, they never use it for prediction. As far as "rules" please specify what you mean

solun · May 19, 2009

personally, I ask the i ching about how to proceed into the future, not what will specifically happen. What's the point in living your life if you 'know' what the future will bring. No. The i ching is for direction and self-improvement - for refining the higher nature, not soothsaying - that's almost a kind of cheating, or trying to cheat your way around what it really has to offer: guidance on how to address the issues inherent in the questions.
You can't get around life principles and expect genuine success. You just have to go through.
It's not that specificity doesn't enter in, it sure can. I suppose it just depends on the persons, the questions and the interpretations. But the i ching seems mostly about spritiual guidance.

bostonian · May 20, 2009

What if you have little or no interest in knowing your future, or using the Yijing in such a way?

personally, I ask the i ching about how to proceed into the future, not what will specifically happen. What's the point in living your life if you 'know' what the future will bring.

Using the i Ching strictly for advice on how to proceed in the world is a reasonable choice. But except for those few who have renounced the world, I don't believe people do not want to know the future or that having that knowledge makes life pointless. Having an idea of what the future will bring helps one make decisions today. If the weatherman predicts rain tomorrow, you might want to buy an umbrella today. Or if last year one knew that house prices would drop, he might consider renting instead of buying.

I believe the meaning of the word "oracle" is advice or prophesy from a deity.

rickmatz · May 20, 2009

Personally, I think the I Ching is a tool for acquiring self-knowledge and that anything beyond that is wishful thinking. I realize that I am a contrarian here.

bostonian · May 20, 2009

Personally, I think the I Ching is a tool for acquiring self-knowledge and that anything beyond that is wishful thinking. I realize that I am a contrarian here.

Certainly a possibility. But i think that its popularity comes from the belief that it can prophecize.

Trojina · May 20, 2009

rickmatz said:
Personally, I think the I Ching is a tool for acquiring self-knowledge and that anything beyond that is wishful thinking. I realize that I am a contrarian here.

As a matter of interest what tells you that ? Is it your experience or your beliefs ?

jilt · May 20, 2009

How much specificity?

well, you have preponderence of the small, taming of the small, possession in great measure, taming power of the great, preponderence of the great. In hex 55 you have those small things, stars, that blind the sun (worries, small people), etc.
Problem in measuring is in the yi is, as with Heisenberg: a proces (and everything the yi talks about is in flux, process) cannot be measured: the moment you fix it it is already somewhere/time else, you are only confronted with your own measuring-system and the need to transcend it.
So, what is your eternal scale? death? life after the threshold of death? Love? Life? The big bang? Einsteins relativity? How do you measure eternity? What do you try to measure, the workings if the yi and do you want to find proof of it's workings by applying some kind of scale? In that case you will only meet your own ability to make scales: the observer observed.
All those considerations don't take away that in some we want to know how a development stands in relation to us, e.g. if rewards well be big or small, and what the yi means with big and small.
In my experience e.g possesion in great measure is not about material wealth, but about abilities and talents.

How much specificity can you wring out of the I Ching?

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