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A history of the Sabian Symbols

philish

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This is a nice summary. Do you use them?

Unlike the author, I do find them useful for the dimension they add to a chart reading. But I think, like any oracle or symbolic system, it's best to use the system that speaks to the user. (Didn't mean that literally! :rofl:)
 

fkegan

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A very skewed, partial history of the Sabian Symbols...but nice links...

Hi Luis,
Nice to see work on MEJ's Sabian Symbols, though it is strange to have this article by someone who has never used them herself and thus has no appreciation of their power. Many of the other folks on the various links I know to varying degrees, though only Kent (Gavin Kent McClung) could I agree knows what he is talking about. The others mentioned have their own interests first and foremost and major, major problems with their misunderstanding primary about them each and all).

This fluff article you found does not include Bill Herbst (http://www.billherbst.com/) whose The Oracle of Love is his work on the Sabian Symbols. Apparently, recently had a stroke but is still a practicing astrologer actually using the Sabian Symbols. He was kind enough to email me a database of all the basic versions of the Sabian Symbols that was invaluable in my work corresponding them to the 360 lines of the Yi hexagrams 3-62.

And of course, my own work on Sabian Astrology and the Symbols on my web site:
http://www.stars-n-dice.com/sabianastrology.html with links to my correspondence to the Yi lines in detail: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/sabiansymbols.html

One has to use the Sabian Symbols in horoscope interpretation to actually appreciate them (and attending some workshops of the AFA where Marc Edmund Jones demonstrated them in use is also important to truly understand them).

Most of the so-called history of the Sabian Symbols ignores the fundamental reality:
1) They were the work of Marc Edmund Jones who worked with Elsie Wheeler to help him visualize the Symbol scenarios. There was no doubt about the time and place of their development, however, Marc deliberately hid the time to prevent silly astrologers from trying to cast a chart of their birth and make their own interpretation about it.

2)The notion that the Symbols were purely occult or random with Marc not seeing the sign and degree notation on the 3x5 cards at the time is total nonsense. His shorthand in pencil is on the same side of the 3x5's as his writing of the sign and degree in ink. He himself described the process as his focusing upon everything he knew of each degree, generating the Symbol under guidance of the Lodge, which was then described as a scenario seen psychically by Elsie Wheeler. Marc first tried to report the basic scenarios in his mimeographed lesson set on the Sabian Symbols sent to his astrology students, but he was never comfortable with them in pure form.

That was his problem, that version is the original and most powerful form of the Sabian Symbols, but they weren't the sole creation of MEJ and though he used them brilliantly, he never really appreciated them and tried to bury them several times, but others found them too important to let go of.

But, its always nice to see an article on them appear somewhere...

Frank
 

heylise

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I used to use them, and they gave quite a lot of insight. Combined with different hexagram lines though.

I see that you use the descriptions of Dane Rudhyar. He has added lots of words according to his own ideas, but to me that limits them considerably. It adds thinking to a tool which has been made according to, and is intended for, intuition or whatever you call it which is lots deeper and wider than any thinking.

Compare Dane Rudhyar's
"A bomb that has failed to explode is now safely hidden from discovery"
With the original of Elsie Wheeler
"An unsuccessful bomb explosion"
 

fkegan

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A bit more from the actual history of the Sabian Symbols...

I used to use them, and they gave quite a lot of insight. Combined with different hexagram lines though.
I see that you use the descriptions of Dane Rudhyar. He has added lots of words according to his own ideas, but to me that limits them considerably. It adds thinking to a tool which has been made according to, and is intended for, intuition or whatever you call it which is lots deeper and wider than any thinking.

Compare Dane Rudhyar's
"A bomb that has failed to explode is now safely hidden from discovery"
With the original of Elsie Wheeler
"An unsuccessful bomb explosion"

Hi LiSe,
NO, NO NO. You have got it ALL TOTALLY WRONG!

But I do agree with you that adding stuff according to your own ideas is very limiting in terms of any real utility, but I would apply that to your correspondence to Yi lines according to your own notions of astrology and such.

Actually, I use the original Mimeographed lesson set sent to astrology students of the Sabian Assembly back in the day.

You bring up an interesting Sabian Symbol to quote. It was from that specific Sabian Symbol I found the original scenarios so important and not to rely upon the published book that you misidentify as Elsie Wheeler's intuition. The version you quote as Rudhyar is from his original publication in The Astrology of Personality of the 1930's about a decade after Marc Edmond Jones' original work in 1923 or so and still closely associated with the original mimeo set.

MEJ Original Mimeo lesson retelling of the scenario Elsie Wheeler saw: 13 Aries
A bomb that has failed to explode is now safely hidden from discovery

Corresponds to Yi line hex 50 line 1 given in Gia-fu's Taoist Translation as:

CAULDRON OVERTURNED BY ITS FEET. FRUITFUL TO GET RID OF THE BAD. TAKE CONCUBINE TO HAVE A SON. NO BLAME. Necessary to work through the lowly to achieve nobility.

The point to this line and the Sabian Symbol is NOT the bomb at all or its lack of success in exploding.

Rather it was a scenario of a labor demonstration in the 1920's era where mixed in with those protesting for unions and better working conditions were anarchist terrorists still out to make their point with a bomb blast. This blind act of violence would allow the police the break up the entire demonstration, arrest the union leaders and put out press releases tying union organizing with terrorism (Cf. The Haymarket Riot).

It was that the situation was cleaned up, the dud bomb safely found and disposed of so that the demonstration could continue its pursuit of noble ideals in peace which is the actual point of the original scenario based upon Marc Edmund Jones' deep thought upon the meaning of Aries 13 and Elsie Wheeler's psychic ability to see the Scenario given them from Occult Sources for that degree.

This relates to dumping out the rotting remains in the Ting that would ruin the proper presentation of the ritual offering. No bomb is required or even a labor protest. It is the sincere effort to keep the connection to higher values on track and properly expressed that is the implication of both this Sabian Symbol and this Yi line.

What you call "With the original of Elsie Wheeler" is actually from Marc Edmund Jones published book, The Sabian Symbols in Astrology where Marc would only use his own notes written hastily in pencil on the 3x5 cards as he worked with the specific Occult Brother of the Lodge assigned to oversee this primal Occult experiment. Marc considered a published book an obligation to attempt absolute perfection and all he could be certain of were his original written notes--not the general impressions of the psychic vision as clothed in the personal associations of Elsie Wheeler and thus limited to her background and personal sophistication.

There were NOT just intuitive personal association or imaginative blind random connections involved in the occult-psychic experiment, unlike the belief of those who wrote this so-called history of the SS article that this thread was based upon.

The Sabian Symbols work remarkably well. Each person gets out of their use what they are able to draw from its well connected to Absolute Source. Best not to make haughty pronouncements about what is the proper version of the Sabian Symbols unless you have some actual knowledge of them, not just playing with the text per your own whim.

In Rudhyar's later An Astrological Mandala text: Aries 13 is:
An unexploded bomb reveals an unsuccessful social protest
which is actually just silly. That's Rudhyar's limitation revealed. Would an exploded bomb have made for a successful protest?

But this text did have its usefulness.

I used the Rudhyar text in my original work corresponding the Sabian Symbols to the Yi lines in the Wilhelm. At first I was surprised how there would be an absolute difference between the divination slogans in the Wilhelm and the New Age opportunity and enthusiasm in Rudhyar's symbols.

Then I realized the Wilhelm was based upon Confucian commentaries that were to be used by Chinese Imperial bureaucrats to give them counsel in their official obligations to avoid blame or personal responsibility which is always trouble for any bureaucrat.

Rudhyar in his text, attempting to make a sort-of alternative to the Yi from the Symbols was in the midst of '70's New Age enthusiasm. So what would have been "humiliation" and "calamity" to a proper Imperial bureaucrat was opportunity for personal initiative and novel experimentation in the Rudhyar Sabian Symbols.

Then I moved on to the far better combination of the Gia-fu Taoist Translation paired to the Marc Edmund Jones original mimeographed lesson set.

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy. D.
 

heylise

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Wrote this when Clarity was closed so I could not check with your post. But this is the origin of the Sabian Symbols.

In 1925 Marc Edmund Jones and Elsie Wheeler drove to Balboa Park in San Diego in Southern California. Jones had prepared 360 blank index cards. He marked each of them with one degree of the zodiac. From Aries 1 up to Pisces 30. He shuffled them continuously. In two hours and after lunch again several hours, he handed them one by one to her, face down. She gave a description of the image she saw by clairvoyance, and he penciled that on the card. That way Elsie created an image for each degree of the zodiac.
Sabian%20Aries%2013.jpg

This is the original card, written in Balboa Park, apart from the heading of course.​

Later several things have been changed. Jones made some corrections, and some of them I don't agree with, like "circular parts" instead of "circular paths". But Dane Rudhyar made quite big changes, adding lots of explanatory 'facts' to the original text. Like his "an unexploded bomb reveals an unsuccessful social protest", which makes it very limited in my view. And not only that, it also changes its meaning.
 

fkegan

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Hi LiSe,
You do indeed choose your sources by your gut, but again, and your repeated claims from dubious sources just at all true. You are repeating the "official" line of those who seized power in the Sabian Assembly, but it is not what either Marc Edmund Jones said or what his 3x5 cards actually indicate.

Like most interpretations of Lao Tzu, poem One, those who know the history of the Sabian Symbols chose not to speak about it. Those who leap forward to fill the resulting void of accurate information do so from their own personal beliefs.
{Remarks removed as private material not for public discussion}

First, Marc never let go of or gave the cards to Elsie. He did not turn them over, that is the Lunar or superstitious notion that "ego" must be replaced by random action to be truly occult. Marc spoke always very clearly that he focused upon his degree and sign in ink, thinking hard about all his associations thereto to form the psychic image that he let Elsie envision. He did not approve of the work she did, considered her vision of the scenarios as too limited by her sheltered Midwestern origins and severe arthritis which kept her in a wheel chair most of her life. That is why Marc was forever trying to discard the result as a failure, but they were just so useful they could not.

{Removed as private remarks, not appropriate to public posting}

Marc described Rudhyar as a metaphysician and was well aware of his differing interests. As I noted, by the time he came to publish his astrological mandala book he had changed many of the images greatly. The Sabian Symbols are now given to the world and they will become what they will.

Perhaps best for no one to claim they know the absolute origin of them, they work best for what they do, not what folks say about them. It just annoyed me to have all these claims posted online that are clearly not anything like what was discussed by Marc in his seminars at AFA conventions. But go for it, the path of celebrity has its benefits and its consequences...

Frank
 
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heylise

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fkegan

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Hi LiSe,

You get to declare a discussion closed? How powerful of you.

I haven't seen such total control outside of the small child who closes their eyes to make the outside world disappear.

If you bothered to read my posts, you might realize that there is more to reality than just published books. The Book of the Sabian Symbols by MEJ is just his pencil shorthand notes, but hardly the whole of his Sabian Symbols.

Those who actually knew Marc Edmund Jones as well as read his published books understood very well that he spoke very differently than he wrote. His published books had to be as absolute and perfect as he could make them. He spoke much more simply and directly to the person or people at hand.

He was a truly 19th century man, though one has to have met and interacted with at least a few of those remarkable folks born before 1900 to truly appreciate what that means. There also is a strong current in Theosophy and other metaphysics of that era that it is of vital importance to maintain the veil, to hide from the general public all the truly important details. The more recent view is that those who shouldn't see sensitive material, actually are limited in their understanding and can't grasp those sensitive details even when they are clearly set forth.

I would apologize for interrupting your totally self-contained bubble with alternative input, but then as you say, you aren't open to any such outside influence. However, one of the purposes of discussion is to move beyond the "ponderous and one-sided" (cf. Wilhelm hex 58 Image).

However, I do thank you for exposing yourself so clearly, thoroughly and absolutely in these posts of yours.

Perhaps the ultimate comment we can both agree upon is that the history of the Sabian Symbols is far less important than the current use of whatever version of them one is able to find useful. They are a totally different type of poetic imagery than is otherwise available for use with the Astrological Zodiac.

Frank
 

heylise

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Frank, when you tell me that I choose sources by my gut, that means that you are not discussing but having a contention for superiority. So for me the discussion had ended. Actually it never really started. If you could give any source for what you claim to know, then it would be different. But you just want me to accept your words. Have you been there? Sitting next to Marc and Elsie in that car? No. So you got your idea from someone. Who? Marc personally? No You don't give your source, so when you say I use my gut, then I wonder what you are using. And besides, the books about it which I have are on my bookshelf, not my gut.

I did expose myself, you are very right about that. So did you, and not only now but many times.
 

fkegan

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You insist upon sources...OK..

Frank, when you tell me that I choose sources by my gut, that means that you are not discussing but having a contention for superiority. So for me the discussion had ended. Actually it never really started. If you could give any source for what you claim to know, then it would be different. But you just want me to accept your words. Have you been there? Sitting next to Marc and Elsie in that car? No. So you got your idea from someone. Who? Marc personally? No You don't give your source, so when you say I use my gut, then I wonder what you are using. And besides, the books about it which I have are on my bookshelf, not my gut.

I did expose myself, you are very right about that. So did you, and not only now but many times.

Hiya LiSe,

And let me first thank you for your demand for sources... as it would me immodest and otherwise inappropriate for me to make these personal comments without them...

I joined the Sabian Assembly in October 1973 and was in monthly correspondence with Marc Edmund Jones as were all Sabian Students at that time. I attended the Sabian Conferences and various of the AFA conferences which Marc held workshops.
{esoteric material removed from public view}

My remarks about Marc and his comments upon his Sabian Symbols were of course from my personal relationship with him and questions to him as was standard for Sabian Students back then and throughout his life.

Of course, no one sat in the car, it was a private event. However, Marc did discuss and write about the event with what information he was comfortable letting be known.

If you need objective indication of the relative merit of your bald claims to know what happened, think of the scene you envision. Marc Edmund Jones is just the assistant or secretary to the Elsie Wheeler, (a psychic who was greatly honored to be allowed to join him in his experiment) just handing her to cards to envision and somehow managing to write in pencil the full Sabian Symbol upon them, as you imagine it. It is clearly logical nonsense. He was the one with the connections on the other side, she envisioned complete scenarios which he tried to recreate in the mimeographed lesson set from his shorthand notes which are what HE wrote in pencil on the 3x5 cards, just under the degree and sign he had previously written in ink on the same side of the card.

A computer database of many versions of the Sabian Symbols came to me by the most kind gift from Bill Herbst who was never a member of the Sabian Assembly but bought that lesson set as was available to anyone while Marc was alive and felt it was essential to make all materials publicly available to be sure the group was not a secret society or cult which the people you quote have not quite been so strenuous to maintain.

Bill Herbst typed the Sabian Symbols from that mimeo set, the published MEJ book on your book shelf (and on mine), the Rudhyar, as well as his own version into a database. His work was invaluable to me in comparing the various versions and working out my correspondence with the Yi lines.

He has a website for his astrology work and his books and donations for his medical expenses due to a stroke.

Of course my comments came from my personal conversations with Marc.
Are you really so self-absorbed to not notice that! Who do you think would cite personal conversation they did not have? Do you think that because I do not flatter you that I must be a weird evil person rather than a scholar of vast experience and expertise who expects a similar level from others when they make bald statements of authority.

And how do you manage to flatly quote as fact things you have no direct access with at all? You read a pair of published books and claim to know better than anyone actually involved in the origins of the later book (by Roche) and its unseemly development.

{ private material removed from public view}

So, yes, I have my sources and direct history--what do you have to back up anything you have done other than your individual and idiosyncratic personal impressions?

Glad to meet you source for source. Put up or shut up little scholar...

Dr. Frank R. Kegan
 
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heylise

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Frank,

My source, the one I really rely upon, is a book written by Marc Edmund Jones himself.

If you can say things without insulting or denigrating, I might talk and discuss with you. You know, talking the way you do makes you very doubtful in my eyes. First thing you learn in university is 'discussion', in a respectful way. Another thing is respect for another view, not having that is extremely unscientific.

Apart from university, it is something every child learns, if it is raised in good way. It is what a society relies on to be able to function well.

So unless you can talk like a balanced grown-up person, I see no reason I should talk with you.

:bows:
 

hilary

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(*sends pm to Frank to ask him to desist*)
(Thinking that any further discussion about scholarship, sources and civilised conversation should probably happen in the "Moderation" forum.)
 

fkegan

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Just in case somebody asks these are the ones I use...
http://www.sabian.com/EN/products/series_comparison.cfm
Sergio

Hi Sergio,
They are what is uppermost in the Google. Apparently excellent workmanship, named I believe for his two daughters or some similar personal allusion. Perhaps a rim shot upon your Sabian cymbals would be appropriate here. He even has a community to join for those enjoying his product. I seem to remember a Bible quote about the clashing of cymbals too.

Frank
 

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