Hi,

The bad stuff seems to be keeping it's hold on me for longer than the good.
My clarity of thought, ability to focus, and ability to regulate myself and haul myself up from despair, and enjoy the small things atc and being practical, is getting harder and harder. I feel like there are walls around me.

Anti-depressants have finally been suggested, but I am reluctant, and I think my reading on the matter reflects this:

51.3,6 > 30

Is this saying that sometimes shock requires intervention (51.3 > 'If one spurs to action'?)
Or that I shouldn't listen to others (51.6) and deal with it with faith that things will get better? (hex 30 I think talks about needing to get comfort from something higher - not earthly things?

What is your impression here? Would anti-depressants release me? ( and perhaps consequently those around me?

Thanks

:bows:

I wonder if it's saying I don't need anti-depressants but to utilize these times?
I do bounce back from them, but with less energy these days...

Lise says of 51.3 that shocks 'inspire great deeds'
and 51.6 'One cannot see the lightning that hits oneself only others' so perhaps saying I dhould learn from others and how they've dealt with this sort of thing?
And recognize these moments for what they are... shocks/fears that will settle... once they've lost their power to overwhelm...

and then 30 is about spreading light... but also flames only light for an instant so perhaps saying that anti-depressants could only provide temporary relief anyway?
Plus I feel like taking them would make my problems more a part of me.... but then I carry them around anyway... Perhaps they would shed light or ease the shocks I feel.. but in the long run that wouldn't be enough maybe...

em ching said:

Hi,

The bad stuff seems to be keeping it's hold on me for longer than the good.
My clarity of thought, ability to focus, and ability to regulate myself and haul myself up from despair, and enjoy the small things atc and being practical, is getting harder and harder. I feel like there are walls around me.

Anti-depressants have finally been suggested, but I am reluctant, and I think my reading on the matter reflects this:

51.3,6 > 30

Is this saying that sometimes shock requires intervention (51.3 > 'If one spurs to action'?)
Or that I shouldn't listen to others (51.6) and deal with it with faith that things will get better? (hex 30 I think talks about needing to get comfort from something higher - not earthly things?

What is your impression here? Would anti-depressants release me? ( and perhaps consequently those around me?

Thanks

:bows:

Click to expand...

I think perhaps your depression is a reaction to whats been happening. 51 shows things have thrown you, you've been constantly trying to adapt to all these upheavals in your life, your're tired and its kind of immobilised you. You've had alot to process and you're kind of stuck like a rabbit frozen in the headlights. I think we have some kind of inbuilt freeze mechanism that may once have been adaptive evolution wise ..you know as in sometimes the safest thing to do is to do nothing, and when your nervous system is over loaded as yours is possibly with all the moves and job changes, and love interests, and parent troubles and flatmate troubles how much can a girl take before she feels like shes stuck in mud..its just all too much and she freezes ! Hmm thats how is see you and 51.3. 51.6 makes me suspect some of this depression is to do with people around you not you at all. Could be you are picking up the reverberations of someone elses panic stricken life. If this is the case then some distance is going to be good for you...and also anything that gets you moving to counter 51.3.

Its odd i onced asked about a friend with depression who would come to me alot and got 51.3 also and it made me think of the electric shock treatment for depression (NOT that I'm suggesting that) but maybe there is a factor with depression thats like being really stuck needing shakeup. I think shock therapy did/does work but still i think noone knows exactly why. I also noticed for myself how shocks seems to shift me out of depression without me knowing it (not that thats really like shock therapy) i just recall being really depressed and a car driving into the back of mine and somehow i just wasn't depressed anymore... adrenalin rush ?

I'm not ever too clear about 30 (ironically seeing as it is 'clarity' ) but i think its a pretty good indication in this reading of you breaking through to daylight via your own clarity. You probably already have a good handle on whats happening to you its just things are all fuggy right now.

So what to do ? I think whether one chooses to take medication is all down to degree of suffering. If you now find things intolerable because of your state of mind it may be time to think of taking them but as an outsider i see you have been through alot over the last year, maybe your reaction is just a normal reaction to that and you aren't clinically depressed. I guess if i were you i might get the tablets but wait and see if i really do need them. Be wary of addiction also. Although they say these things aren't addictive theres many who do find them so. Then again they can be a good thing if you feel really unable to cope.

Have you talked to that auntie you like about it...the one who you were thinking of introducing to the Yi ?

Anyway i think whats happened is you got stuck in the valley of shocks 51.3 and you have to get out somehow but you need to recognise the reason for feeling like this is probably down to all the upheavals you've had... so don't give yourself a hard time. Is there some way you can really move your energy to kind of shake yourself out of this mud, maybe jsut do something completely different, anything to get moving. i don't mean heavy responsible stuff like jobs (yuk)..i dunno bungee jumping ?

Also try to remove yourself from people who may be encouraging feelings of panic. Its their problem not yours. If you can distance yourself from their concerns either mentally or physically you could feel alot better , they couldbe really fugging things up for you, not intentionally but through their own fears(51.6).


Stay chilled. keep us posted

after all that I realised with thinking of being stuck in mud, well thats 51.4 and you got 51.3 but I think what i said still stands except its slightly more positive. It looks like a good thing to get yourself going somehow, then i reckon you could well shake off this depression. Don't let things immobilise you, they don't have to, action will help to release you

Learning from Others

em ching said:

I wonder if it's saying I don't need anti-depressants but to utilize these times?
I do bounce back from them, but with less energy these days...

Lise says of 51.3 that shocks 'inspire great deeds'
and 51.6 'One cannot see the lightning that hits oneself only others' so perhaps saying I dhould learn from others and how they've dealt with this sort of thing?

Click to expand...

Many people are obtaining relief from these low energy symptoms with a (relatively) new substance called 5-HTP. I was quite low all winter and into the spring, and the relief on taking this stuff was almost immediate and quite astounding. I have really never needed anything before this year...

It is worth trying since there is a growing consensus that the anti-depressants are dangerous. 5-htp is converted in the brain to serotonin, which is what you need.

Sorry to prosletyze, but the stuff is great! Read the user reviews. It is inexpensive too.

http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Best-5-HTP-60-Veggie-Caps/1?at=0

Tiger

Trojan: when your nervous system is over loaded as yours is possibly with all the moves and job changes, and love interests, and parent troubles and flatmate troubles how much can a girl take before she feels like shes stuck in mud..its just all too much and she freezes !


So well written thank you Trojan as always! That all really helped and thanks so much for your empathy and remembering all my woes posted up here! Yes I suppose I do tend to give myself a hard time more than what has happened or my circumstances.. But I am in a working towards wiping the slate clean at the mo - it's just not a road without its pot holes!
I think you might be kind of right about what you say about 51.6 - while my mum is trying really hard and gives good advice - sometimes I bring her down with me and she just snaps a little... and of course I feel bad about that and would just rather be left alone..
But yes shocks - a kick up the bum - can definitely be good. I like what you said about being depressed and then shaken out of it by bumping your car I can imagine that happening! Being ovewhlemd by fear and negativity is shocking and makes you realise you're in danger in your present state and so have no choice but to move!!

:bows:

Hello Tiger in the boat!

Brilliant thank you - I have just obtained a bottle! Read up about them and they sound good - plus I'm hesitant to get prescribed anti-depressants because that'd require a (depressing) trip to the doctors and also, I feel like my anxiety and depressive episodes would become more a part of me... and as Trojan says - I also don't think I'm clinically depressed - just finding it harder to cope and much much fugginess... I think they can be good too - they really helped my cousin but she still has the same probs coming back again now... and I've heard doctors then often have to change your anti-depressants to get the same effect - and then you could go down the road of possible unpleasant side-effects and addiction etc..
Also like the sound 5HTP as it is naturally sourced.
Thanks so much I have taken action - take that mud!
Also read somewhere that they can give you crazy dreams... we'll see

:bows:

trojan said:

Have you talked to that auntie you like about it...the one who you were thinking of introducing to the Yi ?

Click to expand...

I have yes! She suggested doing the washing up
But what she meant was keep busy and the next thing you know you're soothed... She's also - not quite stiff upper lip (not at all that narrow minded) but thinks talking about what's bringing you down doesn't help - just keep going and do what you can. Not so easy when it takes over your whole body though, and everyone deals with upset in different ways - some like to explore it but I know what she means. All about balance eh Haven't brought up the Yi with her again though - I think I'd have to write out or create a graph of relevance out of my readings - or at least some sort of empirical study to come near to convincing her.

I have taken one of the 5-HTP and I don't know if there's an element of placebo but I feel far less muggy in my head and hopeless! I even feel a lightness in my chest and better able to organise things again... I know it's only been an afternoon and we'll see how it goes in the coming days. But I feel much better.

Thanks all

Tiger in the boat - Do/ did you take one or two a day?
I have the 50mg capsules and it says 1 - 2 but I'm not sure what'd be best, because yesterday I took one midday and within a couple of hours I felt a marked difference - it definitely enhanced my mood. But then I took another before bed - and ended up feeling a bit hyper and thinking too much/ unable to sleep (though I did eventually). Usually when this has happened lately - I'd get palpitations and feelings of fear and doom too rolleyes but I did feel happy.. though probs would have been better off sleeping (maybe I was just over-excited anyway). This morning I felt fine until I heard from my dad and he, as he's been doing a lot of late, put me in an irrationally bad mood and stressed out.. Should I take one now again to combat this? I'm not looking for medical advice - just pointers on how you took them - did you routinalise and just take one at the same time everyday, or not exceeding the stated dose, did you take one as an when you felt you needed it?

I also asked the Yi this morning for insight into my anger towards my dad which is getting worse:

55.1,2,3,4 - 7

Would you say this suggests I need to reduce perhaps the amount I see him before I can cool off (because 55 means denseness)? We don't live together but see each other once a week (I'd rather have space from him though!) For some reason he seems to push my buttons every time! (He is an irritating type of person though as others have pointed out to me so maybe not entirely irrational
Maybe it's saying we could benefit from each other - if I can take military action against my anger and discipline myself not to react so badly against him...



:bows:

Since I'm not a doctor (despite my mother's urging)

em ching said:

Tiger in the boat - Do/ did you take one or two a day?
I have the 50mg capsules and it says 1 - 2 but I'm not sure what'd be best, because yesterday I took one midday and within a couple of hours I felt a marked difference - it definitely enhanced my mood. But then I took another before bed - and ended up feeling a bit hyper....

Click to expand...

I started with the 100 mg tablet and took them fairly liberally, tried as much as 700 mg a day, as there is this one doctor whose protocol has up to 900 mg for weight loss. At that dosage, I did feel a little hyper, but I am a bad scientist, and was trying some other things at the same time...lately I am taking about 300-400 a day. Since I just dropped my other experiment, I will be watching this dosage issue more closely.

Each person's is going to have different needs and different individual requirements...this has been shown clearly for things like vitamins, whereas the general population only needs a certain small amount as a minimum requirement, some people in the population greatly benefit from a much large dosage.

Here is what Dr. Murray says (he is an ND, not an MD, if that matters to you):

10. What is the best way to take 5-HTP?
For depression, weight loss, headaches, and fibromyalgia the dosage should be started at 50 mg three times per day. If the response is inadequate after two weeks, increase the dosage to 100 mg three times per day. This recommendation will greatly reduce the mild symptoms of nausea often experienced during the first few weeks of 5-HTP therapy. Using enteric-coated capsules or tablets (pills prepared in a manner so that they will not dissolve in the stomach) significantly reduces the likelihood of nausea. Because 5-HTP does not rely on the same transport vehicle as L-tryptophan, it can also be taken with food. But, if you are taking 5-HTP for weight loss I recommend taking it 20 minutes before meals.

For insomnia, I recommend 100 to 300 mg thirty to forty-five minutes before retiring. Start with the lower dose for at least three days before increasing dosage.

Click to expand...

Here is the link to Murray's book on Amazon (which I haven't read).

Murray's book on 5-htp

I think the correct thing to do is to take a regular and steady dosage that makes you feel well, not to use it as a tranquilizer. The problems of the world will still remain, but you will feel better able to deal with them.

Tiger

Thank you.

Abbondanza

em ching said:

I also asked the Yi this morning for insight into my anger towards my dad which is getting worse:

55.1,2,3,4 - 7

Would you say this suggests I need to reduce perhaps the amount I see him before I can cool off (because 55 means denseness)? We don't live together but see each other once a week (I'd rather have space from him though!) For some reason he seems to push my buttons every time! (He is an irritating type of person though as others have pointed out to me so maybe not entirely irrational
Maybe it's saying we could benefit from each other...

Click to expand...

I always saw H55 as abundance, a time of prosperity. I never heard the translation denseness. But H55 can be an abundance of everything good, such as choices....

Wikiwing: At 55 you have an abundance of everything (responsibility, choice, opportunity) whether you asked for it or not. It could load you to the verge of breaking point.

So abundance can cause its own problems. Master Huang comments that "The name of the gua is Abundance, yet a gloomy atmosphere overwhelms the lines."

Now you asked for insight, and Yi gave you plenty, four moving lines. In fact, it gave you an abundance of insight. It gave you everything but Line 5, where you have brilliant men gathered around you, and Line 6, where abundance has passed.

In the first four lines, abundance is blocked in Lines 2, 3 and 4 by various conditions. In Line 1, the only line where abundance is not blocked, you have to meet your "lord" as an equal, and having done that, you can spend a significant length of time with him.

Wikiwing: ..." a match between equals, created for a purpose, with a natural time-limit. It should last for that natural life-span, and then once you’ve got the message, you need to move on accordingly. This is something good, important – not to be taken lightly – but not for all that meant to last forever."

So the insight provided by Yi is that there is or can be abundance in this relationship, and that it is blocked by the conditions in Lines 2, 3 and 4, and that to have the kind of abundance possible by close relationships with a father, you have to start off meeting with your father as an equal.

If I had to guess, I would say that is the key idea of the reading. And Hexagram 7 is the overall advice: organize yourself to do this, it won't happen by itself. Again, from the Wikiwing, on H7: "Overall meanings: assuming responsibility, getting organised, taking on a ‘campaign mindset’ so that everything focusses in on a central goal."

So the advice is to make a campaign of seeing your father differently, as an equal, and overcoming the obstacles in Lines 2,3, and 4.

Tiger

em ching said:

I also asked the Yi this morning for insight into my anger towards my dad which is getting worse:

55.1,2,3,4 - 7

Would you say this suggests I need to reduce perhaps the amount I see him before I can cool off (because 55 means denseness)? We don't live together but see each other once a week (I'd rather have space from him though!) For some reason he seems to push my buttons every time! (He is an irritating type of person though as others have pointed out to me so maybe not entirely irrational
Maybe it's saying we could benefit from each other - if I can take military action against my anger and discipline myself not to react so badly against him...



:bows:

Click to expand...

I'd say maybe you need to deal with one thing at a time, in a more organised way (7) the 55 and all the lines suggest to me you really can't see the wood for the trees with him, you probably can't see your issues with (or him ) clearly. While one doesn't usually talk of 'organising' emotions I think there are times where one has to think with regard to feelings "I'll deal with that later". Things can come at you you from all sides with 55, profusion but here i think somewhat chaotic profusion and perhaps hex 7 is the way to deal with it.

I think if you see him each week and each week you get upset and angry then thats your reality and you need to see that as your truth. Feelings are a good guide to your truth, not the objective truth (if there is one) but where you are truly in your relation with him right now. If you want more space thats likley to be a valid need for you so you need to take organised steps (7) to find a way to reduce these visits for now. At some point maybe you will be able to see him more clearly and your relationship can improve but right now i suspect you can't see anything about this clearly so don't try its not possible right now. Theres an eclipse in 55, one can't see, one can't do much, broken arm) no point trying to see when its dark and theres trees all about and 100 other things going on in the dark undergrowth...getting my metaphors nice and mixed lol

From other things you said theres alot on your plate emotionally and I've known people when this happens stay sane by saying to themselves, "i can't deal with this now, i'll deal with it later, i'll take some space for myself" thats a 7ish approach to the emotional profusion/confusion in this relationship. That might be the way to go.

There's other ways to see this reading, mines just one of them Tiger talked of the 'campaign of seeing your father' and i think this is also how it is, campaign need some organising and as it involves your emotions they will benefit from organising too. Also maybe you need an organised approach to pinpointing what it is exactly about him that upsets you say, you know write down what times in the meeting he really got to you and what times it was okay, so you can be clearer for yourself about whats happening, rather than just having the feelings and not knowing why.

Glad you're feeling better by the way

I agree with your aunt about the washing up...oh and also as you got 7 you could organise your sock drawer lol you may get depressed and angry but you will always have clean socks !

tigerintheboat said:

So abundance can cause its own problems. Master Huang comments that "The name of the gua is Abundance, yet a gloomy atmosphere overwhelms the lines."

So the insight provided by Yi is that there is or can be abundance in this relationship, and that it is blocked by the conditions in Lines 2, 3 and 4, and that to have the kind of abundance possible by close relationships with a father, you have to start off meeting with your father as an equal.

So the advice is to make a campaign of seeing your father differently, as an equal, and overcoming the obstacles in Lines 2,3, and 4.

Tiger

Click to expand...

Thanks that's really clear - yeah I often think hex 55 is kind of ambiguous, in that it seems so positive but then there's all the talk about waning... and as you say a gloomy atmosphere. So maybe it just means there so many directions it could go - so there needs to be organisation and clear boundaries. That makes sense. And seeing my dad as an equal does too - not letting him make me feel inadequate etc. And being firm with him and myself when we're together so my doesn't escalate.

trojan said:

you really can't see the wood for the trees with him, you probably can't see your issues with (or him ) clearly. While one doesn't usually talk of 'organising' emotions I think there are times where one has to think with regard to feelings "I'll deal with that later". Things can come at you you from all sides with 55, profusion but here i think somewhat chaotic profusion and perhaps hex 7 is the way to deal with it.

I think if you see him each week and each week you get upset and angry then thats your reality and you need to see that as your truth. Feelings are a good guide to your truth, not the objective truth (if there is one) but where you are truly in your relation with him right now. If you want more space thats likley to be a valid need for you so you need to take organised steps (7) to find a way to reduce these visits for now. At some point maybe you will be able to see him more clearly and your relationship can improve but right now i suspect you can't see anything about this clearly so don't try its not possible right now. Theres an eclipse in 55, one can't see, one can't do much, broken arm) no point trying to see when its dark and theres trees all about and 100 other things going on in the dark undergrowth...getting my metaphors nice and mixed lol

From other things you said theres alot on your plate emotionally and I've known people when this happens stay sane by saying to themselves, "i can't deal with this now, i'll deal with it later, i'll take some space for myself" thats a 7ish approach to the emotional profusion/confusion in this relationship. That might be the way to go.

There's other ways to see this reading, mines just one of them Tiger talked of the 'campaign of seeing your father' and i think this is also how it is, campaign need some organising and as it involves your emotions they will benefit from organising too. Also maybe you need an organised approach to pinpointing what it is exactly about him that upsets you say, you know write down what times in the meeting he really got to you and what times it was okay, so you can be clearer for yourself about whats happening, rather than just having the feelings and not knowing why.

Click to expand...

That's really excellent and exactly how it feels (hence quoting it all). I feel so irrational when I get like this when we're together but then there it is and I can't shake it off so yes definitely just need to limit seeing him for now. Definitely. He needn't know why and I needn't feel guilty and hopefully after a time it'll settle down again with him. He just raises my stress levels at the mo, and yes I'm not sure why - there have always been issues with him on certain levels in his past behaviour, or things he does that gripe generally - but never to this extent where that's all I seem to feel towards him... and in an unforgiving way... Hmm. But at the same time I know we could have a good relationship, so I just need space from him, and set boundaries for him and myself.

Thanks! Hmm.... yes sock draw organisation is tempting.. and bookcase.. and life.. so much potential on the organisation front! need some soldiers...
And still feeling better and more importantly like I'm thinking more clearly - I'm sure it must be the 5-HTP. It's not like I'm abnormally happy or anything because I've still felt sadness over the last couple of days - but it's had a cause and not been irrational or overwhelming. Feel like I can manage myself again, and that there are things I can do.
:bows: