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Mountains and holding it together

em ching

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Hi,

I have had a couple of readings involving hex 8 and 52 which I'd like help exploring. I have just come back from a weekend holiday - climbing a mountain was involved! I went with family - a couple of whom I don't know that well. I found it difficult as my usual social anxiety reared its ugly head. And as I've been feeling down and isolated recently I'm finding it harder to have fun and talk to people when I have the opportunity.. out of the habit along with my same old issues... Anyway I was quite quiet and it has caused a further sense of disappointment in myself - though I know I put too much pressure on myself and need to accept my shyness as others perhaps do - but I am not comfortable with being this person. I want to be able to express myself as I know I could... I just think I'm better off alone at the moment, especially as I'm plagued with even more awful thoughts when I'm with people.

Before going I asked
1. How can I be best prepared for this weekend?
5.2 > 63 ;)
Remaining calm during disagreements came true as two of them were bickering a lot!

2. How can I make the best of it?
52.3,5,6 > 8
This answer seemed perfect as we were going to climb a mountain (hex 52 mountain on mountain!) Which of course was exhausting and required holding together and sharing the experience - and encouraging each other to keep going! (though it was just the two of us that made it in the end. I've always thought of hex 8 as two people!)

But hex 52 also seems to encourage silence (which seems to oppose achieving union?)- so I took it as saying I may feel awkward with them (as I anticipated) because of my negative frame of mind etc, and not knowing them too well, but that it's best not to try too hard. Be silent and calm... but hold together with them..

But I felt bad for perhaps not contributing that much (for want of something to talk about) and thus for not being able to relax enough to enjoy the experience...
My inability to be natural and have fun this weekend has been another mental setback and I feel hopeless about myself - especially in regards to being able to join in and feel a part of things..

So I asked Do I need to go on anti-depressants?
8.3,5,6 > 52

Such a weird thing the same combination again but a different order!
Perhaps it's reminding me that my problem is related to poor communication with other people, and that perhaps taking anti-depressants would help the problem by reducing my negative thoughts thus making me more open and cheerful?
Although 8.3 could be saying it's a bad idea? Or that I'm lacking friends around me at the mo (ones I have things in common with etc which is true) which is why union is proving extra difficult?
8.5 I'm not sure about in relation to anti-depressants - save it's about not needing to flatter and allowing for everyone (including yourself perhaps) to be an individual.
Then 8.6... could be saying that it's not possible to solve my probs this way?
Or that now is the time to try to resolve union within myself - and that anti-depressants might realign me?
Maybe I just need to weather my mental storms as a mountain does?? Or that I am the mountain which isn't holding it together and this needs to be resolved?

I'm not productive when I lack faith in myself so I don't know what else to do right now but take them, until I can leave home again and find a niche.. or new experiences and meet new people... but as my confidence is low that is becoming ever more daunting.

The 5HTP has been working - but I'm still being thrown overboard by minor setbacks, though it has helped me sleep and calm in other situations where I was struggling! And it did seem to kick start a new sense of optimism.. but this weekend has damaged that a bit...
And I have been told they can just nudge you out of your rut and don't need to be taken forever (I have been slightly hesitant about taking the plunge (hex 29 came up last time I asked about them!) because I thought it'd be making depression more a part of me - but then it has been... for years... and perhaps this will help on a deeper level..

Sorry all I know this is a long one and I have received great medical advice from some of you which I shall refer back to! But I'm interested in what you make of the repeated combo of hex 8 and hex 52.
Could it be saying there is a mountain preventing me from making contact with people at the mo which could be at the root of my depression? The barrier that is there between me and truly communicating with others? Or myself? I feel like I become two dimensional around certain people or in groups.. but I just seem to have lost the ability to have fun! Or at least be myself... and talk...

Thanks :bows:
 
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titania

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Hi em ching,
I apologize in advance for not addressing your question directly, but I'm a little confused here. It sounds like you've gone straight from 'I'm experiencing some symptoms of depression' to 'Maybe I should take prescription antidepressants', and that seems like quite a leap. So a few questions:

1. Have you been diagnosed with clinical depression?
2. If so, have you and your doctor investigated underlying conditions that may be causing it (thyroid problems, vitamin or mineral deficiencies, etc.)?
3. If so, have you considered other treatment options (exercise, talk therapy, mindfulness training, etc)?
 

em ching

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Hi,

Thanks yeah I have had counselling - I know why things have culminated in this way. I have also been doing a lot of exercise which was suggested by a cousin who has suffered from depression which has been good - but I keep going back under... I just need strength to put the past behind me and believe in the future.. but I'm not coping at the moment - very easily stressed out and unable to talk and enjoy myself. Any tiny mistakes or annoyances set me off - be it angry or despairing - and it's not good for me or those around me. I've had this problem for a long time so I think it's time to try something... but hex 52 suggests stoicism I guess.. but with hex 8 what is it saying?

I asked How can I sort myself out?
52 (again!) line 1

I think saying all I can do right now is keep still. Or maybe that I don't have the strength to tackle this obstacle myself and so perhaps should go to the doctor?
Before I've wondered if riding it out would be better than taking medication which could become a crutch - or you may feel that your happiness is an illusion.. But then, maybe everything is an illusion ;) and if they made me more productive and positive - stopped me ruminating and allowing the negative thoughts to kill activity - that could only be for the better - putting me on the right path...

I probably need to stop giving this so much energy too and just get on and do something about it conducive to pulling myself together!? I hope I'm not spreading too much negative energy in the forum. But it has been the most helpful and understanding outlet.

Thanks all as always.
 
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rodaki

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hi em_ching :)

I'll attempt a reading of your 8/52 answer here, but I'd like to mention beforehand that it is heavily colored by my own ideas abt depression. I do not know the specifics of your experience -you mentioned years which can be deeply disheartening and can be sometimes also burdened by feelings of guilt for going through it and being unable to shake it off . .

back to your 8.3,5,6 to 52, I tend to see it as discouraging you to go on medication:
8 is abt water flowing on earth
8.3 can mean to not hold onto false thoughts on how to go over obstructions (it goes to 39 which you can avoid by turning your back and taking a different approach)
8.5 advises one to not go after what runs straight head of them -water does not flow on a straight line, it captures the ways that lie around it (leading in 2 which is not abt being proactive but open to receive what comes one' s way)
in 8.6 you cannot expect to find a union with yourself out of your sheer will, you need to follow a natural progression of steps to union, all streams slowly uniting to form a river (leading to 20 which is about entering a high place from which you observe and make sure all acts follow the natural laws)
52 is not necessarily about keeping still as such, but finding a way to still your mind, to be serene . .

I think that receiving 52 to 8 abt your hiking trip is really intriguing . . could it be that you can use the experience of climbing that mountain as a lesson in how to find your way back to your fullest self? Could it be that it provided in miniature all the things that hinder you from doing so? btw in your 52 to 8 reading there was also the 5th line changing which is abt few and well spoken words, no need to worry abt not contributing too much in conversations . .

I hope this is of some help . .
all the best with finding your way through these hard times!
rodaki
 
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titania

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I like rodaki's interpretation a lot. I have a somewhat different take on 8.5 though. I think it's advising you to remain somewhat flexible in your decision. Go ahead and make a decision, but don't cling too tightly to it. Remain open to new information and insights, and don't be afraid to let the decision go if it turns out to be wrong for you.

52 (again!) line 1

I think saying all I can do right now is keep still.

To me, "Keep still", sounds like, "Shut up and don't move." That's not my sense of 52 at all. I see it more as the sort of stillness that people practicing tai chi exhibit. They're literally moving, but they're are calm, stable, balanced. Their movement comes from a place of deep stillness.

I'm not coping at the moment - very easily stressed out and unable to talk and enjoy myself. Any tiny mistakes or annoyances set me off ....

That sounds like the exact opposite of the sort of stillness I'm talking about. Maybe that's why 52 keeps coming up for you in this context, because stillness is exactly the medicine you need. (Too bad it doesn't come in a pill. :))
 

marien

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Hi,

I've had this problem for a long time so I think it's time to try something... but hex 52 suggests stoicism I guess.. but with hex 8 what is it saying?

I asked How can I sort myself out?
52 (again!) line 1

I think saying all I can do right now is keep still. Or maybe that I don't have the strength to tackle this obstacle myself and so perhaps should go to the doctor?
Before I've wondered if riding it out would be better than taking medication which could become a crutch - or you may feel that your happiness is an illusion.. But then, maybe everything is an illusion ;) and if they made me more productive and positive - stopped me ruminating and allowing the negative thoughts to kill activity - that could only be for the better - putting me on the right path...

Em ching, I'm really sorry that things have been so rough for so long, and no, you're absolutely not spreading negativity in trying to get help. To me, 52 isn't about stoicism but more about putting up some boundaries, and focusing on the inner space. I'd see the 8 lines as what you've been going through in the midst of this depression, and 52 as the advice. Whether or not this means meds is up to you and your doctor to decide. If there's a chemical imbalance, then maybe this would be the way to go. My sister suffered a horrible depression which eventually became life threatening. She had an awful time while her doctor tried different pill combinations until they found the right mix. She also had a ton of talk therapy, and now leads a happy and productive life. She's still on the meds though-- they're not a crutch as going off them is too dangerous for her.

It's not for the Yi to make medical decisions IMO, but its guidance is always spot on. In this case, stop (52) and consider the best way to care for yourself. Best of luck Em ching, and best wishes.
 

Trojina

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Haven't read other responses so forgive repetition or contradiction but i saw 52 to 8, especially as it was about dealing with family that weekend as a real 'don't worry' message. I often draw 8 around family stuff. I think your answer may refer to organic belonging that isn't subject to influence (52). I would think how acted or didn't act this weekend has no influence whatsoever on your place within the family or how they see you (52) because you are part of them and they are part of you (8) and i would say there is a good dollop of acceptance in this answer. So you can relax and stop trying with them, just be still and don't consider what they think. Whatever passing opinions they have cannot break the integral connection between you.
 
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M

maremaria

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I think that receiving 52 to 8 abt your hiking trip is really intriguing . . could it be that you can use the experience of climbing that mountain as a lesson in how to find your way back to your fullest self? Could it be that it provided in miniature all the things that hinder you from doing so?
rodaki

I had the same thought reading yesterday Em’s reading. My impression too is that Yi talks about that.

Em, you have to climb a mountains and it seems you are trying to do it by running. My believe is that way it doesn’t work. I fell that you exhausting yourself in times which you need every bit of your energy.
Yesterday, I wanted to write to you, but reading your post and recalling your previous one, I got kind of upset with you. :eek:What I see is a little girl, trying hard to make her life better, to be more happy and you don’t treat well to that girl. You push her too hard. She doesn’t need that. What she needs is to love her and be caring. Nobody else can do that. Just you. Others can be there with you, but its only you who can do it.

Both 8 and 52 talk about keeping yourself together, the way I see it. What you are looking for is not out there, is inside you. And that little girl knows how you both can get out from that situation. Hold her hand, listen to what she tells you. And please don’t be such judgmental to her. Maybe you and her already have achieve something but its not easy to recognize them yet. The top of the mountain maybe seems far away. But look behind you and see how much you have walked away from the bottom of that mountain. Are you still in the bottom ? No, from what I read I don’t think so. :)

Things are tough and there are a lots of challenges in your life, but don’t forget to see and acknowledge the battles you have win.

Hold in there
All the best
Maria
 

em ching

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hi em_ching :)

back to your 8.3,5,6 to 52, I tend to see it as discouraging you to go on medication:
8 is abt water flowing on earth
8.3 can mean to not hold onto false thoughts on how to go over obstructions (it goes to 39 which you can avoid by turning your back and taking a different approach)
8.5 advises one to not go after what runs straight head of them -water does not flow on a straight line, it captures the ways that lie around it (leading in 2 which is not abt being proactive but open to receive what comes one' s way)
in 8.6 you cannot expect to find a union with yourself out of your sheer will, you need to follow a natural progression of steps to union, all streams slowly uniting to form a river (leading to 20 which is about entering a high place from which you observe and make sure all acts follow the natural laws)
52 is not necessarily about keeping still as such, but finding a way to still your mind, to be serene . .

I think that receiving 52 to 8 abt your hiking trip is really intriguing . . could it be that you can use the experience of climbing that mountain as a lesson in how to find your way back to your fullest self? Could it be that it provided in miniature all the things that hinder you from doing so? btw in your 52 to 8 reading there was also the 5th line changing which is abt few and well spoken words, no need to worry abt not contributing too much in conversations . .

I hope this is of some help . .
all the best with finding your way through these hard times!
rodaki

Thanks that was really helpful. I have decided not to go to the doctors about it. I know I keep posting on here about feeling awful and then better again, but I do feel better. Without any conscious effort I seem to have become still - or at least what I perceive as my limitations aren't making me feel hemmed in and upset. I think all this is building towards some sort of resilience for when I'm really challenged again! It's also about finding out what you can and can't do and working with that - rather than comparing to others...

Yes - I think with family it is ok. But I just want to be able to loosen up a bit more :) But I know that'll only come when I'm loosened up inside... But I'm being more proactive again and it doesn't feel futile!

8.6 you cannot expect to find a union with yourself out of your sheer will, you need to follow a natural progression of steps to union, all streams slowly uniting to form a river (leading to 20 which is about entering a high place from which you observe and make sure all acts follow the natural laws)

- Yes I supposes it's like living with the bad times as well as you do with the good. Being a rock - unchanging be it wind, rain or sun...? Or at least aim for that... and of course, not being quite so rash and impatient with certain imperfect elements :)

:bows:
 

em ching

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Titiana: ... stillness that people practicing tai chi exhibit. They're literally moving, but they're are calm, stable, balanced. Their movement comes from a place of deep stillness.


Thanks that's a really helpful way to encapsulate hex 52 which always seems like such a challenge! Be still my beating heart... a feat of ages...
 

em ching

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Whether or not this means meds is up to you and your doctor to decide. If there's a chemical imbalance, then maybe this would be the way to go. My sister suffered a horrible depression which eventually became life threatening. She had an awful time while her doctor tried different pill combinations until they found the right mix. She also had a ton of talk therapy, and now leads a happy and productive life. She's still on the meds though-- they're not a crutch as going off them is too dangerous for her.

It's not for the Yi to make medical decisions IMO, but its guidance is always spot on. In this case, stop (52) and consider the best way to care for yourself. Best of luck Em ching, and best wishes.

Thanks marien.
Yes I think some for some people being sad or anxiety prone is more an ingrained physical problem - almost regardless of how things are going perhaps for some - but I think it's usually a mix (nature/ nurture...) With me I know the causes of my feeling like this... but then I had problems before which caused the mistakes and upsets.. but I have always been able to become cheerful again - eventually.. in the past. I suppose I've just been more worried lately that it's bigger than me - that the greater proportion of bad times to good has caused an irrepairable mess in my self-belief and expectations of life and people especially. But I know that it is about hauling yourself up through mental adjustment and not ruminating (as much as you can help it) :rolleyes: and learning from mistakes.
 

em ching

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Haven't read other responses so forgive repetition or contradiction but i saw 52 to 8, especially as it was about dealing with family that weekend as a real 'don't worry' message. I often draw 8 around family stuff. I think your answer may refer to organic belonging that isn't subject to influence (52). I would think how acted or didn't act this weekend has no influence whatsoever on your place within the family or how they see you (52) because you are part of them and they are part of you (8) and i would say there is a good dollop of acceptance in this answer. So you can relax and stop trying with them, just be still and don't consider what they think. Whatever passing opinions they have cannot break the integral connection between you.


That's really nice thanks! Yes indeed blood is thicker than water.. on the whole... :)

:bows:
 

em ching

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Maremaria: Em, you have to climb a mountains and it seems you are trying to do it by running. My believe is that way it doesn’t work. I fell that you exhausting yourself in times which you need every bit of your energy.
Yesterday, I wanted to write to you, but reading your post and recalling your previous one, I got kind of upset with you. What I see is a little girl, trying hard to make her life better, to be more happy and you don’t treat well to that girl. You push her too hard. She doesn’t need that. What she needs is to love her and be caring. Nobody else can do that. Just you. Others can be there with you, but its only you who can do it.

Both 8 and 52 talk about keeping yourself together, the way I see it. What you are looking for is not out there, is inside you. And that little girl knows how you both can get out from that situation. Hold her hand, listen to what she tells you. And please don’t be such judgmental to her. Maybe you and her already have achieve something but its not easy to recognize them yet. The top of the mountain maybe seems far away. But look behind you and see how much you have walked away from the bottom of that mountain. Are you still in the bottom ? No, from what I read I don’t think so.

Things are tough and there are a lots of challenges in your life, but don’t forget to see and acknowledge the battles you have win.



Thanks so much for that answer!!
Both 8 and 52 talk about keeping yourself together, the way I see it. What you are looking for is not out there, is inside you. And that little girl knows how you both can get out from that situation.
This I especially feel is the way to go for me at the moment. I think if I went on meds - real prescripted meds - I would carry it around with me more - that's how I feel at the moment - for now I think I can still perform mind over matter (emotions). But I know they could be a viable option too.

What you said also speaks to me about expecting more from myself and blaming myself always - and coincidentally I read an article about the unhealthy side of perfectionism - as it applies to relationships as well as work etc. And recently any minor mistake I make seems to raise my stress levels.

In the article it says "You're meant to learn from your mistakes, but self-flaggelation is different" Shafran says. Perfectionists may be convinced that ruminating excessively over errors is necessary to learn from them. But in fact exaggerated self-criticism keeps people stuck, preventing them from changing".

I think this echoes what you said maremaria.

Thank you! :):bows:
 
M

maremaria

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Glad you find it helpful Em. To be honest I was worried if I were too harsh.
Let me share a story with you. Regarding hanging around with people you don’t know.
Last year , for some personal reasons, I decide to go on vacation with people I didn’t know. It was what I needed that period. From the group of 40 people I knew only one and that individual was there to work . Its was one of the best vacation I ever had. I stuck immediately with my room-mates and we had a great time. Everything was flowing easily. We had lots of fun and at the evening we talk and talk, till early in the morning. The promise I made to myself that summer was to treat myself a good time and be a bit egoistic regarding my needs. And that was the deal I made with those people. I was lucky because I found people that understood that and respect that. Some of them wanted the same from their vacations so there were some commons expectations and some common non-expectations. The last couple of days , when my friends left and I had planed to stay a bit more, I realized that things around me were not that ideal. Between the other people of the group there were fights, misunderstandings petty-filthy things. Then I felt that someone/something must take care of me. Maybe that was the case , or maybe I help him/her/it too.

The difference between “I have to do that” and “I want to do that” is big, imo. With people we know sometimes we have to do this or that but with people we don’t feel obliged is much easier not to do what we don’t want to do.

Have fun with your mountain climbing ;)

Maria
 

rodaki

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hi em :)

it's great if we can help in any way . .

you know, there was one little thing a friend told me once, very simple but it gave me such huge relief:
'when I'm in a dark moment, and I think things are going down, I keep saying to myself: I know from experience that sooner or later, maybe in one month, in one year or whenever, that I will be happy again'

I know maybe it sounds somewhat obvious, but it has been one of the greatest things I have had to hold onto thru my own difficult times
:hug:
 

em ching

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Yes :)
And I think the older you grow - the more you realise and remember that. And the easier you can bring that consciousness, into the dark moments.

Thanks maremaria too - I often do just think of the other - especially when I'm with people I'm not sure of, or want to 'impress' - I'm wanting them to be ok - but time to put faith in things being ok if I am just myself - or at least balance that tendency with what I want to do, like you said, such as speak or be silent - because otherwise you just diminish yourself - which certainly doesn't do the other any good either.

:bows:
 

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