Blog post: Yi, or the Yi

hilary · Aug 30, 2009

A while ago, I received an email politely suggesting I stop referring to the Yi simply as ‘Yi’ without an article. The writer maintained that since the oracle is ‘not a person’, it would be better not to give it a ‘pet name’; this was not good English usage when talking about a book.

I welcomed the email as it made me aware of something that has become a habit. (I also welcomed it because it challenged my use of English, which is something I’m tremendously persnickety about. I mean, it’s something about which I’m tremendously persnickety.)

On the one hand, he was quite right to say that the Yi is not a person, but a book.*And on the other hand, in the experience of people who have conversations with this oracle and get to know its very distinctive voice, it is a person. Stephen Karcher refers to it simply as ‘Change’; I’ve known people who talk about ‘Uncle Yi’ or ‘Grandmother Yi’ - and also people who hear it as a plural voice somehow and describe their readings with the words, ‘they said…’. The Dazhuan itself says that Yi is like your parents drawing near.

No one would refer to ‘Daode’ or ‘Shi’ as if they were using a personal name, because the Daodejing and Shijing are simply books. But the book that is the Yijing is also an oracle known as Yi - or perhaps the voice of an oracle known as Yi? Hard to know how to describe this… but people do have a different kind of relationship with oracles…

bradford · Aug 31, 2009

Dear Ms Persnickety -
I'll have to vote for "the Yi" as referring to the Zhouyi and "the Yijing"
as the larger book. In the Chinese language Yi is a noun, not a pronoun.
("Ye" is a pronoun though, but ye are not, as "thou" is, but thou art not).
the bradford

meng · Aug 31, 2009

I don't think the eye ching cares. I mean, I think the eye ching doesn't care.

rabbistoryteller · Aug 31, 2009

meng said:
I don't think the eye ching cares. I mean, I think the eye ching doesn't care.

Good one!

hilary · Aug 31, 2009

Meanwhile at Facebook (I keep forgetting that my blog posts go there too) Havi is 'waving the persnickety flag' - which sounds wonderful. I must get myself one (along with the manual on how to fly it correctly, of course).

Question for all and sundry - what do you tend to call the whatever-it-is you're conversing with via the Yijing?

jilt · Aug 31, 2009

wath the heck means persnickety? (please, Hilary, explain for all those un-native speakers)

By the way, I don't have anything serious to say about the rectification of names

lucia · Aug 31, 2009

Hiya Bert.............

(how r u?)

per⋅snick⋅et⋅y /pərˈsnɪkɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [per-snik-i-tee] Show IPA

–adjective Informal. 1. overparticular; fussy.
2. snobbish or having the aloof attitude of a snob.
3. requiring painstaking care.

Also, pernickety. - Origin:
1885–90; orig. Scots, var. of pernickety
Synonyms:
1. nitpicking, finicky.

Dictionary.com Unabridged

Hilary

Me, when I am talking to it I just call "It" - I ching - as in um "please I ching show me blah blah...."
when I'm writing about it I just call it "the ching" ........

We have occasionally had rows and in my journal I always write my own immediate response which has included a sharp "F... off" when it gave me 58 as a picture of me in a hellish situation, to which the ching replied with 61.... hmm..........

Either way I notice "it" never seems offended and takes me as I am

Hmm, Bert here you have a perfect example of pernickety..... thanks to this discussion I now feel obliged to put inverted commas around "IT".

Lucia

jilt · Aug 31, 2009

tak, Lucia, now i understand.

I think there is no hiding and no false pretense possible, with the yi and with it we see through it anyway, it knows when there is respect/connectedness/love without the right formulations and rituals. That easy and lazy part of it i love so much

pantherpanther · Aug 31, 2009

hilary said:
Question for all and sundry - what do you tend to call the whatever-it-is you're conversing with via the Yijing?

I think of the I Ching as a teaching and a book (and "an old friend") that may open an attentive mind to the realm of active higher intelligence (as "the Immortals et al."). I don't sense a specific personal oracle or teacher, although I accept this is true and right for others.

The Dazhuan itself says that Yi is like your parents drawing near.
What a nice thought. Where does it say that ? I only know "Dazhuan" as a technical term. I expect everyone else but me knows what text it refers to!

I recall a teacher asking. "Why does God love parents so much?" He explained, "Because when they die their children have to make space for Him."

Sparhawk · Aug 31, 2009

I call it/him/her: "Yo, dude..."

meng · Aug 31, 2009

hilary said:
Question for all and sundry - what do you tend to call the whatever-it-is you're conversing with via the Yijing?

Usually, Sir. But also Father or Mother. If not the actual word then implication of it. My personification image is a mixture of morphing personages, including but not limited to Avalokitesvara or Guan Yin, Jesus, an ancient man in the shape of a mountain, or a white dog. They are all listening. The answer comes as on wings. I thank them. Are they real? No more so than I, and probably no less.

bamboo · Aug 31, 2009

I think I will adapt the " Yo Dude "

that person who wrote you the persnickety email should be promptly 29.6ed. I love it when you ( Hilary) refer to the oracle as Yi. The Yi is different from Yi. the book is not the voice. the book is the tool, the vessel, Yi is the voice, the interactive flow

Sparhawk · Aug 31, 2009

bamboo said:
that person who wrote you the persnickety email should be promptly 29.6ed. I love it when you ( Hilary) refer to the oracle as Yi. The Yi is different from Yi. the book is not the voice. the book is the tool, the vessel, Yi is the voice, the interactive flow

Just posted something in a more serious note in Hilary's FB version of this thread. In that context, "Yi" is the name we choose to give to the soul/shen that is speaking to us through the book.

hilary · Aug 31, 2009

Exactly. (And how did I get myself into this situation where I'm having conversations about this silly little post in three places at once?)

Thank you, Lucia, for posting the definition of 'persnickety'. It's a good word, isn't it? Somehow sounds exactly like what it means, and as if it wears pince nez.

The Dazhuan is aka the Great Treatise (in Book II in Wilhelm/Baynes), a weird and wonderful mix of traditions. The part I was thinking of is in Part 2, chapter 8. Hm - W/B translates 'approach them as you would your parents' but Richard Rutt (whose version is a lot easier to read) has 'shedding light on trouble and its causes, not as a guide or teacher but like a parent at one's side.'

lucia · Aug 31, 2009

Thank you, Lucia, for posting the definition of 'persnickety'. It's a good word, isn't it? Somehow sounds exactly like what it means, and as if it wears pince nez.

It's a great word.... In a neck of the woods that I know that has its own variations on Spanish, one of my favourite words is tikimiki - whch means the same - extremely fussy - I love that word too for the same reasons. The "official" word has an S in it - tikismiki - but in this part of the world they don't do S (in fact they're not madly fond of consonants which is a bit tricky until you get used to it). As the word is unique to this area I often wonder how the S got there in the first place

Actually you can do persnickity without the S also ............

Lucia

Trojina · Aug 31, 2009

sparhawk said:
Just posted something in a more serious note in Hilary's FB version of this thread. In that context, "Yi" is the name we choose to give to the soul/shen that is speaking to us through the book.

"FB version" ? does FB stand for face book ? Hope not as i don't get all that flibbertygibberish stuff ...(i made that word up i think)

Sincerely

The Trojan

ps why can't you write it here instead, the serious note i mean, so i can read it

charly · Aug 31, 2009

hilary said:
... Question for all and sundry - what do you tend to call the whatever-it-is you're conversing with via the Yijing?

Hilary:

In my country I use to say «el I-Chig» [«The I-Ching»], that here has no particular sense of being speaking neither of a person nor of a thing. To say «I-Ching dice...» [«I-Ching says...»] should soud strange here.

People that sometimes consult me do not understand any chinese, neither spoke nor written.

Plain people here can sometimes add the artiche to the personal name, «el Luis» or «la Dora», although it seems little cultured.

Meanwhile, when I write in english, I use «The Changes» or «The Yi», although I now believe that to write «Change says...» or «Yi advices...» should be pretty adequate for some purposes.

I never speak in english.

Maybe the best shoud be to recognize people the right to speak or to write in the way that better fit to each one expressive needs, even at the risk of not being correctly understood, which in turn passes frequently with all oracles.

Best wishes,

Charly:bows:

Sparhawk · Aug 31, 2009

trojan said:
"FB version" ? does FB stand for face book ? Hope not as i don't get all that flibbertygibberish stuff ...(i made that word up i think)

Sincerely

The Trojan

ps why can't you write it here instead, the serious note i mean, so i can read it

Well, get on the program and get a Facebook account. Then you befriend me and get to see pictures of me at the beach with a yellow speedo (Borat has nothing on me! :rofl:

)

As for posting here (mghrgarrt!*$^%!!), I've been hesitating a lot lately about contributing thoughts in Clarity where they'll be dissected just for the sport of "dissecting other's thoughts" and not for the sake of substance and/or, perhaps, the enhancing of the idea. A lone bad clam can spoil the whole pot and in pissing contests we all end up wet, smelling of urine and is never a good way to measure one's manhood (specially in cold weather...

)

In any case, because you ask, here is what I wrote there. However, keep in mind I'm replying to Hilary and commenting on something Scott Davis wrote there too (which I will not quote here because they are not mine):

On a more serious note than my reply in Clarity, I'm with Scott on this. If we consider the historical context of the genesis of the Yijing, then the rituals involved and the magical/animistic thinking of the time, would have conferred the embodiment of the text with something akin to a "soul." Not sure if shen would apply as a translation for our word "soul." In a sense, I think, soul, is a more comprehensive definition than shen, which can be further divided, as it is in TCM, into five other different "spiritual entities." OTOH, the Dazhuan says "that which is beyond yin and yang is called shen." So yes, perhaps shen could be used contextually to precede and seed the Yijing. How we in the West understand the term is almost certain to differ from that of the East. Reason why I rather use soul instead.

Now, I'm sure you've read Stephen Fields "Who Told the Fortunes? The Speaker in Early Chinese Divination Records," right? He quotes Keightley saying: "Apparently, it was the gods or spirits who then communicated in reply, and the kings interpreted the divine language of the pyromantic cracks." Taken in that context, then the Yijing would be a communication conduit between the "gods or spirits" and the reader. That is, the reply does not come from the book but from ... Read Moresomething outside of it. The Yijing is then seen as a vessel (Ding) and shen, being beyond yin and yang, would provide the "message." The question is, can we embody and anthropomorphize shen? And if so, whose shen is talking to us?

As an interesting note, something we don't see much in English, in Spanish Yixue discussions is very common to refer to what's beyond the Yijing per se, as the "Santos y Sabios" (Saints and Sages and in plural). This frame of mind, IMO, is perhaps closer to what the Chinese might feel about the book and the provenance of its messages.

Trojina · Aug 31, 2009

Thankyou Luis. I personally always felt i was talking to the something beyond the book. In any case one does not usually have conversations with books and one isn't when one consults the Yi (oops see i still say 'the' mostly i think) so the chap who said Hilary must say the 'the Yi', well he obviously doesn't realise hes not talking to a book.

I don't really understand why anyone would join facebook but now you mention i can see pics of you scantily dressed at the beach if i do...well i may consider it

Sparhawk · Sep 1, 2009

trojan said:
I don't really understand why anyone would join facebook but now you mention i can see pics of you scantily dressed at the beach if i do...well i may consider it

Sigh..., alas, I just found out that I'll have to scrap commenting in FB on Yi matters, in those places where I find some of the same people and useless feedback I get here.

fkegan · Sep 1, 2009

Hi Hilary,

Your email friend seems sadly mistaken in his assumption that Oracles come from merely a book and not a person. Even Jung in his forward to the Wilhelm (was he a person?) notes ..."the text of the hexagram must be regarded as though the I Ching itself were the speaking person"...

Referring to the Oracle as not a person is quite peculiar if not offensive to those who have a relationship with the spirit said to reside in the book.

Frank

lucia · Sep 1, 2009

Referring to the Oracle as not a person is quite peculiar if not offensive to those who have a relationship with the spirit said to reside in the book.

I think anyone who is offended by how anyone else refers to the ching , needs to get a life.

Lucia

rodaki · Sep 1, 2009

hi everyone

I refer to the voice (it? him? her? them? whatever?) as Yi . . I see no fault in it, it's an instance of personification . . and it would also stand if we called it Book for all I see
anyways, linguistic rules do recognize poetic license and Yi stands both as mythical discourse
and imaginary(?) friend

love 'tikimiki', great word! 'persnickety' too, in greek we have 'titizis' -or 'titiza' if it's female

maremaria · Sep 1, 2009

I usually don’t use any name when I “talk” to Yi. When i write sometimes its Yi sometimes the Yi. And the image I have in my mind is a fading image of an old man. But when I talk, the image is an eye. I focus on that eye and I talk.

Maria

Luis, i liked you FB comments. Especially the last one

fkegan · Sep 1, 2009

lucia said:
I think anyone who is offended by how anyone else refers to the ching , needs to get a life.

Lucia

Hi Lucia,

You distribute a life to folks or just object to comments?

This thread started with someone objecting to using Yi (instead of The Yi) to address the Oracle as if they were calling the venerable Classic of Flux by a nickname like Joe for Chou Yi. So, at least quibbling about the terms of address of the text is the designated topic. I guess those expecting folks to have or get a life would be better entertained in a different thread.

Some folks see a book, others note their relationship to their divination Oracles. Traditionally, it was believed that an actual supernatural spirit lived in the silk binding and communicated with You through the Oracle cast. Thus making the difference between the text based Oracles of the King Wen Sequence and the Tortoise shell based Oracles of the Shang.

Each of us manages to make as much or as little of the context and details of any thread as we may choose.

Frank

pantherpanther · Sep 1, 2009

fkegan said:
Hi Hilary,

Your email friend seems sadly mistaken in his assumption that Oracles come from merely a book and not a person. Even Jung in his forward to the Wilhelm (was he a person?) notes ..."the text of the hexagram must be regarded as though the I Ching itself were the speaking person"...

Frank

Jung's internalizing his problems with his parents - inadequate mirroring and metabolizing - resulted in a Puer Aeturnus complex which may explain problematical parts of his analytic theories and practice as well as his approach to the I Ching. Hexagram 4 is perhaps relevant.

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.
(Wilhelm)

fkegan · Sep 1, 2009

Hi Panther^2,

Are you responding to my witticism about Jung as a person, or just using the opportunity to take up the antique debate amongst the various schools of psychoanalysis?

Not at all clear what relevance to the question of I Ching as a book like other published texts or a special entity in relationship to those who use it for divination, however. Though it is always instructive to have the Wilhelm Judgment to hex 4 quoted again. Many superficial aficionados of the Oracle live in mortal terror of that hexagram and take pleasure in inflicting its Judgment against others. Thus, there is always magical power to quoting that terrible Judgment to frighten those of lesser merit.

Or more to the point, in your divination do you just read the Book for interpretation or find yourself in relationship with the Oracle Spirit?

Frank

bradford · Sep 2, 2009

The Yi itself uses the first person (wo3) in several places.
It's used as if in quotes at 56.4 and 61.2, seemingly to put words into the subject's mouth.
The plural (we, our, us) is used at 9.0, 20.3, 20.5, 42.5, 50.2 and 62.5 in a way that seems to refer to the Yi as an involved and responsible member of the society.
It's more obviously referring to itself as an oracle in three places - 04.0, 27.1 and 48.3.
The authors of the Wings were a lot more timid, and only try to make the Yi refer to itself in two places - 05.3x and 40.3x.

Given all of this first person usage, it seems intended to have an intimate relationship with the querent, but I don't think it was intended to be a casual one, a first-name-basis kind of friendship. There isn't enough of the right kind of respect in that.

I have in the past found myself using You, intending it in the plural, and imagining this to be something like an artificial intelligence brought to life by a convention or congress of diviners and shamans (a wu xian in Chinese). And I say it as though I'm addressing superiors, not just buddies.

meng · Sep 2, 2009

bradford said:
I have in the past found myself using You, intending it in the plural, and imagining this to be something like an artificial intelligence brought to life by a convention or congress of diviners and shamans (a wu xian in Chinese). And I say it as though I'm addressing superiors, not just buddies.

I share this position and sentiment. It isn't they who seek me, after all, I seek them.

hilary · Sep 2, 2009

Oh yes, definitely a feeling of addressing superiors... after all, who is the petitioner here?

Thank you for the list of line reference - will have to look at all those again, as I hadn't thought of most of them as the oracle speaking - more as the 'as if in quotes' thing, words spoken by someone around the situation. (4.0 is quite often that, too.)

By the way - when you say 52.4, do you mean 56.4?

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