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Hopes and fears 61.1,6 > 29

em ching

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Hello all,

Just to say I am doing well. Things aren't throwing me into despair and I've been better for at least a week! So feeling like I've reached a level of understanding and acceptance. I don't think that means things can't/won't deeply affect me again, but I feel slightly more untouchable at the mo :) which is good because being depressed makes it very hard to do things. Thanks everyone for your help.

There has been a matter of the heart playing heavily on my mind also for a while.
I am resolving it - in the sense that I feel my happiness would not rest on it - but that doesn't take away the feeling.
I asked today, Am I seeing this through a veil of illusion?

61.1, 6 > 29

Whaddya think? I have my own ideas about it. One being I think perhaps the Yi could be saying - stop asking about this issue! (61.6) :rolleyes: and also how you shouldn't be overly reliant on others, despite a connection? (61.1). But I just feel a bit torn. Lise says of 61.6: 'Give your emotions a fair chance to live life without giving it names.' and coupled with hex 29 - does it say you have to go where the heart leads to learn your lesson, despite the fear and pain? and the doubt that I am alluding to?

Any instant reactions would be most welcome. I worry how far feelings can cause self-deception and distortion of the truth.

Thanks
:bows:
 
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rosada

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As I have been away from computers for the last couple of months I am unaware of the story (softer word than "drama"!) you've been going through lately em ching. So without knowing what your particular situation is I thought I would just make a few comments on these lines.

61 is of course Inner Truth, so this seems to be a very appropriate response to your question concerning illusion. I think 61.1 and it's warning that having "secret designs is disquieting" refers to the importance of not having any prejudice against seeing the truth. If in some part of our being we are hoping/fearing something it distorts our ability to see things as they really are. Like when you ask the I Ching a question but are so caught up in hopes and fears that you are unable to interpret the answer objectively.
61.6, The cock crowing to heaven but unable to fly, suggests a lot of brave talk but nothing to back it up. Wilhelm comments that this energy cannot last long.

Taken together I get the impression the I Ching is telling you what a veil of illusion is and leaving it up to you to decide if your are seeing clearly or if you are harboring secret designs - hopes - that things could be different (61.1) while talking a good talk (61.6). The good news is 29 promises "If you have success in your heart, whatever you do succeeds." You may not be seeing through the veil too far but if you just keep on keeping on one step at a time you will be fine.

If you got this response in answer to a question about love, it sounds like you were asking, "I'm feeling better, am I over it?" I think the I Ching is cautioning you that you must not depend on your current good mood to be the final one - and therefore I assume, not to put yourself at risk - like listening to sad songs and going with out sleep - but 29 promises that even with all the highs and lows one must still navigate you can look forward to eventual success. I see 29 as saying "Nothing on the outside is stronger than what's on the inside!"

rosada
 
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em ching

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Thanks Rosada.
Yes it's just a worry when feelings start to convince your head. But that seems to be the way human hearts operate. Feelings cannot be stopped - they get everywhere - water swirling through the abyss... :rolleyes:
But when you really feel that you recognise something in someone it's hard to accept reality - if they populate your head and 'heart', but not your actual everyday space. That is why I'm worried that I'm walking the illusion side of the fence here.

I asked again, whether this is recognised by the other
61,2,3,5 > 22

Again 61!
I think I just need to let time lead me to the truth here - my feelings aren't, or perhaps they are, but nothing's ever perfect and all's subject to change - including people and their natures. Or perhaps not? Perhaps hex 61 talks of our inner natures which can't be changed or manipulated?

And like you said, I can only take little steps towards seeing through the veil of love, remaining aware of the danger of my feelings for this person repeating themselves on route... but that's part of the human condition, when we meet people - certain people that we feel are 'kindred spirits' (as suggested by 61.1?) it is inevitable to feel that we need them to share our experiences with. It's just a question of whether it truly relates to the other person - or whether it is an illusion conjured up by the heart with a bit of hope added in to flesh it out... which you need to bite through for the sake of your sanity.

Could the reading be reminding me that my understanding of the truth between us can only go so far - touch the surface (hex 22) - while my hopes are distorting the truth? As you suggested Rosada. Or maybe it's positive - saying that when people of 'like kind' meet - they see themselves - or certain elements of their inner truths - mirorred in the other? (Think I've read of hex 22 being about reflection?)

I don't know eh. Is the truth what we feel or what we see? Probably the latter as the voice of the ego leads our hearts astray sometimes - perhaps as a defense mechanism - but reality will remain unchanged regardless of the 'calling crane' (our hearts?) - and then the pain of realisation kicks in - after time has unveiled the truth... But by then, we're often over it - so it's ok.

:bows:
 
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em ching

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:)
Yes well huff. I think my heart's gone as high as it can with this one and now it's too starved of oxygen to go any higher - needs the kiss of life. But grounding is probably good at this point and who knows what tomorrow will bring - feelings, perceptions, everything changes!

I asked Is this the truth? (Going cold is perhaps the general direction I need to go in considering..)

23.5,6 > 8
Seems like it has decayed and I must now be strong and pull myself together (8) and utilize the good from the experience - what has been learnt (23.6) rather than bemoan my efforts (23.5) But I don't regret showing my affection, despite it leading nowhere now.

Ah well.
Thanks Rosada :)
 
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em ching

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Oh dear - I now sound rather bitter here considering all that I also felt about 'kindred spirits'. I do think the concept exists and appreciate it when I feel it! There will always be people in your life who you connect with (I hope) and if they or you change.. well, you just can't always keep 'em or rely on them - or mold them to your own tastes or needs. Everyone's free. An island. A rock. A rolling stone :rolleyes:

I think the bitterness was encouraged by a previous thread on 23>8 which I read, which quotes a saying by a Swedish woman (not sure if that means anything):
'Women are like potatoes, if you leave them, they go cold' :) I liked that one.

I also received 8.1>3 when asking about what to think with this (as yes - I'm still wading through the issue)

Does this suggest that it's a case of trial and error? But as long as you're sincere and true to your feelings, there will be a certain sense of union in chaos - if only with yourself? But expect chaos in unions especially when you're young and don't know yourself or the world so well.. and things such as insecurities - obstruct true union?

I asked in relation to this person - but it could well have been giving me general pointers about the beginnings of relationships in general - especially when young - rather than relating to he and I specifically.
I generalise in light of my thoughts in my other thread - on whether the Yi just tells you what is relevant to your understanding of your feelings in the moment - rather than illuminating the reality of the situation outside of you or with another?

I don't know - Confused!!
I hope I'm not confounding anyone with this confusion and perhaps unnecessary probing into how the Yi operates - what it can and can't tell us. But it'd be interesting to hear whether you take readings as illuminating what is between you and the outside world, or you and yourself - and all those voices in your head :rolleyes:

:bows:
 

tigerintheboat

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Stuck inside of Chasms with Inner Truth Again

Hello all,

There has been a matter of the heart playing heavily on my mind also for a while.
I am resolving it - in the sense that I feel my happiness would not rest on it - but that doesn't take away the feeling.
I asked today, Am I seeing this through a veil of illusion?

61.1, 6 > 29

Whaddya think?

Em,

The core of H61 is to be true to yourself; see things as they are, yourself as you are, the "other" in as clear a light as possible. And as such, once you have seen yourself, you must accept what you see and act on it. That is what it means to be true to yourself, to know who and what you are and act accordingly, and not be swayed by the "other", especially not the other's opinion of you.

Both Lines 1 and 6 warn that if you are not honest with yourself and others, misfortune will follow. So I think Yi is throwing the question back on you. You are in the chasm (H29) and subject to the laws of inner truth, and possibly wanting very much to deceive yourself. Yi says, "This is what will happpen if you deceive yourself." Line 6 is about empty words rising up in the air, and knowing when words are empty. Line 6 implies, or some commentaries imply, that you want to deceive yourself and believe the words, and warn of the consequences of doing so.

Cheery, huh.

Tiger;)
 
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ginnie

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I asked today, Am I seeing this through a veil of illusion?

61.1, 6 > 29

I think it means you're seeing it through a veil of fear and therefore you'll give up this line of inquiry quite quickly . . . Whenever there is not a certain ease and gladness, then it's not love. It's just another form of misery and fear . . .

Personally, I usually interpret 61.1 as meaning to stay alone and quiet, because "the presence of others would give rise to anxiety," as the Blofeld translation writes.
 
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rodaki

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hi em

glad to read you're feeling better!:)
I agree with what's been said already here . . you have a very strong answer in your 61/29 . . . the simplest, pure truth and the biggest fear, isn't it strange how those two can be really close? I had those two the other way round once, 29.1,6 to 61, pretty scary reading . . . I took it to mean that what can keep me floating in 29 was my own 61. Yours could be saying that your 61 will rise by handling the dark pits of 29 -I know, easier said than done!

I would just like to offer some friendly advice though, in the form of a question: is this the right time for you to be turning to someone else? I totally get the need for partnership, just make sure you're not going that way just to feel better or get away from the other hard stuff . .

take good care of yourself!
 
M

maremaria

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I asked today, Am I seeing this through a veil of illusion?

61.1, 6 > 29

En- joy your staying into the pit. It has an entrance and an exit. Let the pit speak to you and let your self being attuned (61) with the pit.

This is what I read.
 

ginnie

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It's as if, in matters of the heart, we have a tendency to go towards people we're afraid of, which is backwards motion, in my book.

Why should we have to live through misery and let the scenario play all the way out, when we have already sensed at the beginning that something's wrong?
 
M

maremaria

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My impression is that the matter of the heart is not the heart of the matter( the pit). This is why I read it like that.
Maybe I should have explain it better.
 

em ching

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Why should we have to live through misery and let the scenario play all the way out, when we have already sensed at the beginning that something's wrong?

Can't argue with that one actually. But you'd rather fool yourself and believe in an alternate reality than face the cold, hard, truth.
It's such a pain that we have a voice inside us- the voice of false hope or belief- that seems to feed the heart and keep it feeling, and believing, contrary to rational thought.

It has really upset me. I would have been happy to be this person's friend - and I thought we would be - despite my feelings. But when that seemed to be false too - I had to find out why and it's collapsed. My impatience coupled with his rudeness = sour grapes and cold potatoes. What a waste of time and energy. But I'm sure falling for the wrong person serves its purpose somewhere - if only to give us meaning at the time, or direction, or somewhere to channel are nurturing side/ need to be nurtured (return to the womb lol) I don't know... it does inspire art too I suppose... so many songs and books... probably written by people in unrequited-love who fantasize and in turn feed our fantasies! I'm thinking of the great love stories. Whereas perhaps the reality is - the road to love is always smooth - and sayings such as 'the course to true love never runs smooth', is a myth conjured up by people in the hope stage perhaps... unless you're in Romeo and Juliet scenario - where both were on the same page but society threw rocks in their path...

Oh well. Give me more time please on a plate so I can eat it all at once - and forget the whole saga.

I asked, in relation to what ginnie said: Was it always wrong?
Hex 21
Does this just refer to dealing with someone or something unjust? ie wrong?
Makes sense and I don't have the energy (or delusion) to see anything else there (in the way of union) considering the situation.

Maremaria, do you mean that this abysmal state that my heart is currently in - is valuable down the road anyway, so have no fear?

Thanks all.

:bows:
 
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em ching

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And yes I'm probably not best relationship candidate at the mo. Maybe when you're adjusted to life without needing 'love' so much - then you're free.. and it'll happen when you least expect it..
But two lakes are better than one.
But some don't seem to ever find the right lake for them.
Not trying to be too hopeless here - y'never know -and maybe it doesn't matter... there are things more important than life.. (which I think is a line from one of the hexagrams)
 
M

maremaria

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Maremaria, do you mean that this abysmal state that my heart is currently in - is valuable down the road anyway, so have no fear?

It could be. It depends on you Em.

Em, don’t forget that what I’m saying here its just my point of view. There are people more knowledgeable and more experienced who can help you to find your answers.

Maria
 

ginnie

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What a waste of time and energy.

Yup.

There's an interesting quote written under H21 in the Wing workbook translation that seems to apply to your situation: "Know what you want, know what makes you feel good about your Self, know what brings you into harmony with others. These are your guidelines and principles. Other factors that assume control of your behavior or your health or that create inner discord are the obstacles that must be overcome. Be firm, unemotional, gentle, and clear in annihilating them and therefore re-forming your Self and your environment."

It's funny how some man makes us feel conflicted, out of sorts, unable to sleep, frustrated, really out of harmony with ourselves and other people, and all we can think about is how in love we are. That's not love, believe me. It's a conflicted state of troubled confusion. Truly, we human beings do not interpret things properly, and please don't think I'm just talking about you, em ching, because I'm not singling you out.

We human beings are also said to have the capacity to direct and re-direct our thoughts. I hope you'll be able to do that without needing to blame or analyze anybody, yourself or anybody else.

In medieval times some theologians used to argue about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. I guess one could go on talking and arguing indefinitely about something like that, which can never be pinned down anyway, no pun intended.
 

rodaki

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ohh Em . . maybe you've reached a dead-end with this guy . . are you gonna press yourself against the wall and indulge in the feeling of cold hard stone or turn around and try to find a different road to take? (remember your 8.3? maybe this is a very good instance of it . . )

you've been given a beautiful hex. (61) but you prefer to focus on a hurtful terrain (29)

I loved what ginnie said about re-directing thoughts and things that cannot be pinned down
is love always smooth? (and before some general talk of it,is loving ourselves a smooth road?)

I just received an sms that contained only 3 words: 'real life exposure' . . it sure feels dark and dangerous at times and we sure feel exposed and vulnerable going through it
but it is definitely far more than that -and Yi paints the truth of it like a breath of air upon a quiet lake . .
:blush:
 

em ching

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Thanks everyone.
Yes Rodaki - it does feel like a brick wall at the mo - so I need to take that hint from the universe :rolleyes: And of course it is more important to rely on yourself and be the best you can be, rather than feel like you're a half-baked person that needs to steal ingredients from someone else because you feel your cake won't be complete without them. If you get the metaphor...

'Yi paints the truth of it like a breath of air upon a quiet lake . .'
Yes - although my emotions over this guy have been anything but a quiet lake - but that has been my inner truth about him and there's no escaping that - but I am reconciling this reality and will concentrate more on baking myself :) (back to the cake metaphor)

:bows:
 

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