Contradictory Hexagrams

bodhidogma · Sep 14, 2009

Hello all,

I often receive contradicting hexagrams (as I am sure many of you do, too) which seem completely irreconcilable. Today the latest one was:

Question: "What are consequences of looking for teaching job in the East?"

Answer: 35 "PROGRESS" (Lines 3&5) >>> 32 "RETREAT" (the changing lines did not shed any light, either)

Now, either I am asking the question out of ego and I am receiving this contradictory reading as a sort of road block. Or, they are mutually compatible and my interpretation is limited.

Any thoughts?

PS This particular question about a job search is not SO important, I am more curious as to how I can receive such diametrically opposed hexagrams in general...Thanks.

meng · Sep 14, 2009

Howdy, Bodhidogma.

My answer is: cus that's how she rolls.

But seriously, is it possible to advance through a retreat? Yes, especially if you are transplanted to where inner life (retreated life) prevails. If this is in line with your desire, this advances your progress. But that's for you to decide, whether a retreated life is progress to you.

bodhidogma · Sep 14, 2009

So, if I understand you, meng, it could mean I progress through retreat. Or your version; "you progress through retreated life", i.e. solitude.

In that case, I would imagine Retreat would come BEFORE Progress i.e. "Through retreat you progress". In any case, that is for me to wrestle with.

I guess my next two questions would be;

1. Is it possible we sometimes get conflicting or confusing hexagrams as a sign that we are not connected to Higher Self and we are therefor asking out of ego?

2. Or, do ALL hexagrams have a divine logic to them, it just depends on us to make sense of them??

bostonian · Sep 14, 2009

1. Is it possible we sometimes get conflicting or confusing hexagrams as a sign that we are not connected to Higher Self and we are therefor asking out of ego?

2. Or, do ALL hexagrams have a divine logic to them, it just depends on us to make sense of them??

A recent thread on a somewhat similar topic is here.

bodhidogma · Sep 14, 2009

Thank you for the link, Bostonian.

I would like to quote you from that thread;

"I think it is just a matter of not connecting sometimes, one can feel it on a gut level, one does tend to know when this happens. The reason it may not answer is not always to do with the question because you might ask the same question later and get a clear answer...I think its something indefinable, like just being out of synch, not on same frequency..,"

I completely agree with that; sometimes you are in the zone and other times not. And it doesn't necessarily mean there is anything 'wrong' with the question, either. Its just a question of 'frequency' or 'harmonics', as it were.

The trick is being skilled enough to know when that is the case or you are receiving a genuine message.

meng · Sep 14, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Is it possible we sometimes get conflicting or confusing hexagrams as a sign that we are not connected to Higher Self and we are therefor asking out of ego?

One could blame the ego in some cases for lack of understanding of Yi's answers, however Yi (in it's own way and language) generally differentiates clearly between our small self and the greater being, in a given reading. And we can sometimes play every character in a given reading: the "good" guys and the "bad" guys. But such a black or white view can cripple Yi's more beneficial use of helping us understand the dynamics surrounding our questions.

meng · Sep 14, 2009

Also, I'd be really careful of confusing ones moralizing super-ego with the Junzi or "great man". After all, isn't it the ego which seeks to blame the ego, and lays claim to being above itself? :mischief:

bodhidogma · Sep 14, 2009

Agreed.

It is often the ego which seeks to demonize the ego as a trick to get what it wants.

The I Ching is one tool we have for avoiding this trap and connecting with our True Selves, or God, or The Sage or Yi or whatever you want to call it.

You are right though, I think the ego in and of itself is neutral. But by its very nature it is our undeveloped Self and therefore capable of running amok—or worse, self sabotage.

Here is a good quote from Carol Anthony:

""The ego will use all our energy if we let it. If we don't give it any attention it just goes away."

meng · Sep 14, 2009

mmmwellll, but that's a me against it (or them) mentality. Wilhelm probably would agree with you. It's also a master/slave relationship to what you're calling higher power. The mass'ah is up there and ego is down here. I suppose if someone is comfortable with that, that's cool. I'm not. But that's just my ego. :rofl:

solun · Sep 14, 2009

Hi there everyone.

Retreat may not mean total retreat as in renunciation of the whole world, as in becoming a hermit or the like. It just may mean that you could be on the right path if your motivations are correct (Progress) and to Retreat may mean to wait for now..
Did you put a time frame in your question?

And I think it is true often that poorly motivated questions can interfere with our spiritual sight, which is already impaired by the motivation - it's like trying to see through a warped or occluded looking glass.

But the whole question of ego's role is an interesting one. It is where we come from - but what we are trying to work out of, too. I don't think -ego baaaad/selflessness gooood - either, because we dont' always recognize how complex we can be.

fkegan · Sep 14, 2009

Hi All,

There is also the question of the connotation of the English words used to translate the names of the hexagrams. Retreat in the Yi's terms can be a completely consistent with Progress. To retreat as a military maneuver is to disengage from the enemy and go one's own way.

If you take a less literal view of the Oracle answer, then everything becomes consistent and even the two lines are useful. The Yi terms come from ancient times when the only freedom of action for an army came through retreat away from the other army (cf. Sun Tzu Art of War).

In my Flux Tome American names, your Oracle would be Rising Son >>Flight and the hexagram 33 Retreat becomes taking off into the air under your own command.

Perhaps that change in connotation will be helpful to you.

Frank

Sparhawk · Sep 14, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Answer: 35 "PROGRESS" (Lines 3&5) >>> 32 "RETREAT" (the changing lines did not shed any light, either)

Not that it makes much difference in this argument but is 35.3.5 > 33 (not 32).

Now, your question about "going East" and receiving 35 is very meaningful, IMO. See, 35 can be seen as the sun (Li) rising above earth's horizon (Kun). Coincidently, the character for East in Chinese is 東, which is also the sun rising above the horizon (behind the trees). I would say the answer is hidden somewhere between a) fleeing from/retreating from the East (which is sort of awkward as you are not there yet...); b) staying away from the East (which would contradict the lines 3 & 5) and c) fleeing to/retreating to the East. Your pick

meng · Sep 15, 2009

35.3 speaks to the automobile choice of the apostles: They were all in one Accord.

bodhidogma · Sep 17, 2009

Meng,

I'm not sure I agree with agreeing with Wilhelm! (My apologies to Wilhelm fans)

Again, regarding the Ego: If you have toddlers, as I do, you probably understand that they NEED discipline. I love them very much and they are my future, but they must be controlled to a degree or WE WILL ALL BE MISERABLE (and often we are!).

There is no master/slave aspect to the relationship because in the end it is all based on Love.

As I see it, the Ego is exactly the same. Its not bad, or evil, its just an aspect of my underdeveloped Self.

Sparhawk, Solun,Fkegan ,

Thank you for your learned interpretations. My guess is, based on other readings on the same subject, I am to RETREAT and/or avoid the East.

Every once in a while I ask again in hopes of getting a more agreeable answer. Not!

Trojina · Sep 17, 2009

Bodhi I had same answer as you recently only the other way about. I had 33.3.5 >35 but was thinking pretty much same thoughts as you., how contradictory 33 seemed with progress..and it was about a job too..withdraw to progress ? Hmm anyway if you have further thoughts on how your answer worked out I'd be interested

bodhidogma · Sep 17, 2009

Trojan, I must say that your version makes a little more sense to me. In other words;

"Through retreating (i.e. nonaction), you progress".

My version seems more complicating- "Progress now, retreat later"? or
"Progress here, but not there (i.e. the East)"?

Any way you cut it it doesn't make clear sense. Although for you I would interpret it as progressing throught non-action.

This leads me to a whole other complicated question (that I am sure has been written extensively here) which is; should the Secondary Hex been read primarily as what is to come? As further instruction?? Or both, depending on the situation?

You don't need to answer that– unless you feel compelled, of course...

Trojina · Sep 17, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Trojan, I must say that your version makes a little more sense to me. In other words;

"Through retreating (i.e. nonaction), you progress".

My version seems more complicating- "Progress now, retreat later"? or
"Progress here, but not there (i.e. the East)"?

Any way you cut it it doesn't make clear sense. Although for you I would interpret it as progressing throught non-action.

This leads me to a whole other complicated question (that I am sure has been written extensively here) which is; should the Secondary Hex been read primarily as what is to come? As further instruction?? Or both, depending on the situation?

You don't need to answer that– unless you feel compelled, of course...

Well now you say it like that my reading was quite clear wasn't it...and yours was the same but back to front er...which admittedly i find it harder to get my head around.

Personally I see the relating hexagram as the context of the question which can include both past and future influences. i tend to go very much with my intuition with it, i don't make hard rules for it referring to the future or past. I think it was Hilary who once said she saw the relating hexagram as 'the sea the primary hexagram swims in' it mayhave been someone else but I liked that, thats how it seems to me.

Looked at in that way my reading 33>35 might be simply 'Withdrawing within a context or time of Progress'...so your reading could be 'Progress within a time or context of Withdrawal' which i think leads back to Luis take on it, withdrawing to something is your progress. But I agree its harder to figure your way around.

meng · Sep 17, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Meng,

I'm not sure I agree with agreeing with Wilhelm! (My apologies to Wilhelm fans)

Again, regarding the Ego: If you have toddlers, as I do, you probably understand that they NEED discipline. I love them very much and they are my future, but they must be controlled to a degree or WE WILL ALL BE MISERABLE (and often we are!).

There is no master/slave aspect to the relationship because in the end it is all based on Love.

As I see it, the Ego is exactly the same. Its not bad, or evil, its just an aspect of my underdeveloped Self.

I think now we are into belief systems and their associations. I associate children with spirit more than with ego. Ego is something learned, largely from their parents and teachers.

maremaria · Sep 17, 2009

bodhidogma said:
"Through retreating (i.e. nonaction), you progress".

Bodhidogma, I have a question. Do you see retreat as nonaction?

bodhidogma · Sep 19, 2009

meng said:
I think now we are into belief systems and their associations. I associate children with spirit more than with ego. Ego is something learned, largely from their parents and teachers.

Ah! But now that sounds like a value judgment to me.

Pure Spirit = Good v. Conditioned Ego=Bad

I do see your point though. I agree a big part of Ego is about game playing and manipulation, which is what we learn in the external world of rules, codes and conventions.

But then again, is the world of rules, codes and conventions necessarily "bad" (for lack of a better term)? I can say this; it certainly does not engage the Higher Self nor is it concerned with the ultimate Reality, yet it is necessary, just as the Ego is.

Which brings me full circle...

bodhidogma · Sep 19, 2009

maremaria said:
Bodhidogma, I have a question. Do you see retreat as nonaction?

Hello Maremaria,

Yes, I see retreat as NON-ACTION. As I see it, we are binary beings. Either we act, or we don't.

It is funny because just after I read your question I got TUN/RETREAT 33. I primarily use Brian Browne Walker's edition and this is what he says;

"Retreat is not the same thing as surrender, capitulation, or abandonment, which are desperate and unsatisfying measures. Neither is it characterized by hardening into angry punitive emotions. It is instead an acceptance and a choice: we calmly accept that the energies of the moment are against us and we wisely choose to withdraw into the safty of stillness."

Do you have another way of seeing retreat?

meng · Sep 19, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Ah! But now that sounds like a value judgment to me.

Pure Spirit = Good v. Conditioned Ego=Bad

I do see your point though. I agree a big part of Ego is about game playing and manipulation, which is what we learn in the external world of rules, codes and conventions.

But then again, is the world of rules, codes and conventions necessarily "bad" (for lack of a better term)? I can say this; it certainly does not engage the Higher Self nor is it concerned with the ultimate Reality, yet it is necessary, just as the Ego is.

Which brings me full circle...

I didn't say ego was bad, so there's no value judgment on my part. Nor did I say or imply game playing or manipulation. I was merely commenting on the innocence of young children, and that ego is something which develops during formative years from adults, teachers and parents, i.e. sense of their identity, of which is ego's primary function.

meng · Sep 19, 2009

meng said:
One could blame the ego in some cases for lack of understanding of Yi's answers, however Yi (in it's own way and language) generally differentiates clearly between our small self and the greater being, in a given reading. And we can sometimes play every character in a given reading: the "good" guys and the "bad" guys. But such a black or white view can cripple Yi's more beneficial use of helping us understand the dynamics surrounding our questions.

Perhaps this post of mine with it's "good guy/bad guy" comment appears incriminating. However, I followed by saying that such a black or white view (such as that) can cripple Yi's effectiveness. This is very common, and it's why I made the reference to Wilhelm, because as much as I admire and respect his translation and commentaries, I believe it leads in a wrong direction in this area. It is the old argument of the the spirit being at war with the flesh, and the flesh being at war with God - which I find to be contrary to the spirit of relationships in the Yijing.

bodhidogma · Sep 19, 2009

meng said:
I didn't say ego was bad, so there's no value judgment on my part. Nor did I say or imply game playing or manipulation. I was merely commenting on the innocence of young children, and that ego is something which develops during formative years from adults, teachers and parents, i.e. sense of their identity, of which is ego's primary function.

Oops. I apologize for reading too much into your post.

And yes, I do agree with your statement about wanting to avoid the pitfalls of assigning dualistic values—(i.e. body v. spirit).

And honestly, I regularly change my mind on the question of Ego's value and/or role. All I know for sure is I am trying to evolve into a person with a weaker Ego, rather than stronger one. :bows:

meng · Sep 19, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Oops. I apologize for reading too much into your post.

And yes, I do agree with your statement about wanting to avoid the pitfalls of assigning dualistic values—(i.e. body v. spirit).

And honestly, I regularly change my mind on the question of Ego's value and/or role. All I know for sure is I am trying to evolve into a person with a weaker Ego, rather than stronger one. :bows:

I honor your views as well. :bows:

My personal view of ego is probably pretty twisted

, because I think if we recognize the value our component parts, we can better utilize them. How we utilize them is, I believe, much of what the Yijing is about.

Something Wilhelm wrote which speaks to this, which to me is a little ironic. It tells me he did have some understanding of it, but that his parental missionary roots still had a strong influence. I copy it here not to literally depict a Buddhist philosophy, but I think the analogy works.

While Buddhism strives for rest through an ebbing away of all movement in nirvana, the Yi Jing holds that rest is merely a state of polarity that always posits movement as its complement. - W/B h 52

There is also the shamanistic angle, which taps into the super ego to penetrate archetypal realms, whereby our ego becomes a mythological helper. The ego has many uses, not only self indulgence. The ego can inspire us to grow and become great in any number of ways and fields. One example of this is shown in 44.2. When there's no fish in the tank (ie ego drives, sensual drives, ambitious drives, etc), potential (potency) is severely limited.

maremaria · Sep 20, 2009

bodhidogma said:
Do you have another way of seeing retreat?

Hi Bodhidogma and sorry for not replying earlier.

I’m not sure what non-action means in that case, that’s why I asked.

My feeling is that retreat requires actions also just in the other direction. Step back to see the whole picture , from a distance. Sometimes a successful retreat needs a good plan. Being too close in a situation we might loose some aspect, maybe we can see thing that clearly.

I have connect retreat 33, with the advises of some drawing teachers. When something looks wrong you have to take some steps back and see your drawing from a distance, them is much easier to find the mistakes. And if that doesn’t work, then you turn your back to the sketches, clear you mind for a while and the return to your drawing. An then… voila !!!. :duh:

I’m not saying that 33 is just that. When other people involved or the situation is a bit more complicate than a drawing

then my impression is in order to retreat you have to make some tactical movements towards the other direction you must design that backwards movement in a very careful way. When you move forward and see that doesn’t works or something is wrong as retreat I see as put the pause button and move backwards but be careful and watch your steps to be sure that you won’t get trapped.

Perhaps ,what you say as non-action is what I call pause button , but I’m not sure that is retreat. Maybe just the first step towards retreat yet not all of it.

Maybe what i say its not purely 33, i can see other hex too like 24 , 52 etc. But I guess that nothing is purely one hexagram.

Maria

solun · Sep 25, 2009

RE Ego
Maybe it's a question of healthy ego and not so healthy ego
ie self-confidence; which on a continuum can become selfishness, arrogance and the polluted overly self-saturated side of the question...
The identity develops as the Ego is refined through life's trials, if it develops well and the character has the proper discipline and guidance, etc.

It may be helpful when we get 'restrictive' feeling readings to check the Saturn cycle in your transit chart.
Goto cafeastrology.com for a copy of your chart and check an ephemeris for Saturn's current position. It's almost 26 degrees into Virgo right now. That's a work restricter. Unemployment at a high...
It goes into Libra on Oct 29th.

I like to cross reference other sources of divination as well.

Contradictory Hexagrams

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One of those men your mother warned you about...

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