What's the difference?

rosada · Jan 14, 2010

What's the differencing between venting and creating?
42.4 - 25.

I got a phone call this morning that left me feeling really annoyed. I wanted to turn around and email a friend and tell them all about the call cause i knew they would be very sympathetic. But I also know that saying anything just perpetuates the old negativity. But then, this upsetting incident really did happen. Am I not allowed to talk about my life? So I asked the I Ching, "What's the difference between venting - talking about what happened to get it up and out - and creating - where talking about what happened perpetuates the negative pattern and creates more of the same?"

I received 42.4:

If you walk in the middle
And report to the prince,
He will follow.
It furthers one to be used
In the removal of the capital.

This leads to 25 Innocence.

I think this is saying venting to a disinterested third party can be effective, but it seems it is important that the third party really be able to be neutral - or possibly even somebody that is actually a mutual friend who can see the other person's point of view too.

Anyway, I thought the answer was a good fit for the question. If anyone has any further insight I would be interested to hear it.
Rosada

philish · Jan 14, 2010

I'm glad you posted this because I've received this line before and couldn't make much of it until now.

Yeah, I think there's benefit in finding someone with an objective perspective. Or someone with an emotionally detached perspective. You need to find a "prince" --someone with authority/maturity (?) who can help you sort out the epicenter (capital) of your dilemma/emotions.

"Thanks for helping me out on this one, pal. You're a prince!":bows:

lloyd · Jan 15, 2010

footnotes

A third voice, yes. Disinterested, no, does not make sense.
Neutral, yes: in that the friend may rely on his/her own experience, does not of need have to see 'the other's point of view'

Insight in emotions might clarify more than detachment of them (or their epicenters). There are plenty of such people around (& books, songs), no need to hunt for a Prince

meng · Jan 15, 2010

I'd read 42 as what can be gained by venting, first as an affirmation, that it can be a creative (cleansing, therapeutic etc) act, and that it does depend on the other person's ability to listen well with understanding.

rodaki · Jan 16, 2010

42 to 25 is a lovely answer imo

. .
I was thinking that maybe the intermediary doesn't have to be a third party, it can be the way we express our selves (words, exercise, a hobby . .) if we think of it, one can vent in many ways . . . Maybe anything that we start doing urged by our need to vent functions as the medium of reporting to the prince (mature self?) and changing our emotional whereabouts . . as such it's better to be spontaneous rather than contrived and leave nothing to hang on to (no bad taste lingering) . .
like assigning the job to our most innocent parts that won't look back twice or dwell on what got us upset at the first place . .
so . . if I'm reading this right, seems we can vent aaall we want

ompom: as long as we know enough to get back to normal afterwards . .

rosada · Jan 17, 2010

Thank you for the feedback, folks! I think Lloyd and meng you are right on when you emphasize that the third party really does have to be neutral. That's not always so easy to find so I jump on Rodaki's suggestion that "venting" doesn't necessarily have to be talking, that the Prince need not be another person but perhaps our more mature self, and that we can "vent" through exercise and hobbies as well as with words!
-Rosada

ginnie · Jan 17, 2010

Funny, I just got 42.4 > 25 myself today.

I think that venting and 'creating,' in that way you are using the word 'creating, are the same thing. And both of them are equal to 'expressing oneself' and 'complaining.'

I think line 42.4 means a big change in the way we process our perceptions of other people and our responses to them. For example, if a person is annoying us the same way they always annoy us, maybe we can just say to ourselves that they are just being themselves again? And laugh about it? Something like that? Changing the way we respond to certain people and situations?

Because when we're angry with a person, we are bound to that person.

There seems to be the question implied here of convincing our superiors that we are fit for some very responsible task, some project that would never be given to someone of average ability or someone lacking in virtue.

This might mean responding more from the level of understanding instead of from the level of 'getting upset,' which, as you pointed out, is the level of creating a future we do not want.

Seems that on the literal level this line could also mean an actual change of physical location. It could mean that if a lot of other people are leaving, or thinking of leaving, to get ready to leave with them, too.

Thanks for this opportunity to work on this line with you, Rosada!

lloyd · Jan 17, 2010

How about: A line means what a good question wants it to mean?

Meanwhile:
"reporting to the prince (mature self?) and changing our emotional whereabouts, assigning the job to our most innocent parts, the Prince need not be another person but perhaps our more mature self, maybe we can just say to ourselves that they ..."
... begs the question where mature selves and inner Princes were at the moment you got yourself in trouble in the first place

Why go schizo? What's wrong with talking to others

rodaki · Jan 17, 2010

lloyd said:
How about: A line means what a good question wants it to mean?
Meanwhile:
"reporting to the prince (mature self?) and changing our emotional whereabouts, assigning the job to our most innocent parts, the Prince need not be another person but perhaps our more mature self, maybe we can just say to ourselves that they ..."
... begs the question where mature selves and inner Princes were at the moment you got yourself in trouble in the first place
Why go schizo? What's wrong with talking to others

nothing wrong with talking to others but there are times when friends might be tied up or too caught up in their own little dramas . . anyway, transforming an emotional response into positive outcome by calling in our own discerning capacities is not schizo, it is what change is all about . . taking all the amazing force and potential that negative energy has and finding a way to juggle them until they become light as a feather . . sometimes talking does it, or going out for a jog, or dancing, painting, writing, doing the dishes (without breaking them preferably, lol), whatever will exhaust the bug without causing more trouble . .I really like what Ginnie said:

Because when we're angry with a person, we are bound to that person.

I'd add to that that we're not really bound to that person, but we do come across the parts that are already entangled within ourselves . . if something gets me mad it is because I fail to disengage from someone's incomprehensible/hurtful behavior . . I can either let that hurt me (and even a minor disturbance can hurt if I let it go on for long) or understand which nerve in me is triggered and detonate the 'bomb' :bag:
then again, different things work for different people . . i think the objective here is to not let one's self become a mere reaction to others' obscure intentions, to not own what upsets us . .

:bows:

lloyd · Jan 17, 2010

Oh well, last considerations from my side.
In many cases it does not help much to say: Know thyself. We often learn more about ourselves if we say: Know others.
This works best if you do not reduce life to "little dramas", or consider only your own intentions not to be "obscure" :bows: :bows:

rodaki · Jan 17, 2010

just came across a post by Bamboo which describes very well 25 for me . .

25 could suggest detaching yourself from the story, and being who you really are without the story. Take a bath; go out into the earth, sit on the grass, wear red fuzzy comforting socks and maybe dance, bringing the story out of your head and into your body. these are all ways to ground yourself, rediscover the joy of you inside your body.
25 could also suggest not trying to figure it out, who the guy was. what he meant. dismantle the story and come home to yourself. the innocent mind doesnt need answers, and letting go makes room for clarity

sorry lloyd, I don't quite catch your drift but it's ok, we don't have to agree here . .

lloyd · Jan 17, 2010

My drift is: None of us lives on an island (or IS an island).
My guess is that (re. bamboo) the "story" tells rodsada who she is at this moment in time; so to detach from it would mean that there is little to learn for her in this world/life

(unless she lives on (is) an island).

ginnie · Jan 17, 2010

rodaki said:
if something gets me mad it is because I fail to disengage from someone's incomprehensible/hurtful behavior . . . i think the objective here is to not let one's self become a mere reaction to others' obscure intentions, to not own what upsets us.

These days, I like to laugh at what used to irritate me. The trick is to laugh before getting irritated.

Not laughing out loud all the time, because that could hurt the other person. I mean laughing to myself, most of the time.

rodaki · Jan 17, 2010

lloyd:

My drift is: None of us lives on an island (or IS an island).
My guess is that (re. bamboo) the "story" tells rodsada who she is at this moment in time; so to detach from it would mean that there is little to learn for her in this world/life

no, not talking about detachment per se, Rosada's question from the start was about change from venting into creating . . leave one state, enter another

rodaki · Jan 17, 2010

ginnie said:
These days, I like to laugh at what used to irritate me. The trick is to laugh before getting irritated.

Why do we have to pay attention to people who irritate and annoy us? Why can't we just laugh at them? I mean, not laughing out loud all the time. We can also laugh to ourselves.

laugh at ourselves too! lol!!

ginnie · Jan 17, 2010

I think the important thing is to be working on this issue in the first place: to be making some sort of effort in the area of thought -- not to be judgmental of other people.

lloyd · Jan 17, 2010

We often learn more about ourselves if we say: Know others.

Dear ginnie - Who mentioned judgment? (P.S. Enjoy your island, keep laughing ...).

ginnie · Jan 17, 2010

rodaki said:
laugh at ourselves too! lol!!

Learning to laugh at ourselves, too! Thank you for saying this, Rodaki!

...life can be translucent

What's the difference?

rosada

visitor

philish

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lloyd

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meng

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rodaki

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rosada

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ginnie

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lloyd

(deceased)

rodaki

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lloyd

(deceased)

rodaki

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lloyd

(deceased)

ginnie

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rodaki

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rodaki

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ginnie

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lloyd

(deceased)

ginnie

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