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why is 56 not 23

G

goddessliss

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Hi,

I asked the Iching if I will have romance in the month of February and received Hex 13.1.5>56

I interpreted this as someone I already know coming thro my door and its joyous but we end up in misunderstandings then with 56 as one of us going off on our own.
So that doesn't make sense to me because I wld have thought it wld have been 23 splitting apart.
Athough sometimes I note that the hex that follows is read as preceding?
If anyone can make sense of what I am trying to say cld u plse help.

I am not so interested in the romantic bit as I am to understand the following hex 56 not being 23.

blessings
Melissa
 
J

jesed

Guest
Do you understand the diference between 56 and 23?
The Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"; and 56 someone "with no family"
You can understand both hexagrams as no romance, of course. But the consequences are quite diferent

Best wishes
 
G

goddessliss

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thks Jesed- no I didn't understand the difference as I understand very little of the Yi - so now it does makes sense, however, does this mean there is no family now or there will be no family after this event takes place.

blessings
M
 
J

jesed

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does this mean there is no family now or there will be no family after this event takes place.

Hi
That question is the "Mother of all Battles" in Yi-ology :rofl:

There are multiple techniques to interpret the reading; and each one gives a diferent glance:

a) For some, the first hexagram (13) is present situation and the second hexagram is the future (56).In this case, there is a friendship (no romantic but friendly relation) but inthe future there is no love/romance (no family)

b) For others, the second hexagram is the present context (56) and the first hexagram is the answer (13). In that case, you are in a context of being lonely, but you can expect to find one good friendship in this month.

c) For others, following Zhu Xi (an ancient scholar), the answer lies in the moving lines being the uppermost the principal answer. In this case, line 5 of hexagram 13: first crying, then smiling: you can expect some dificulties in the begining, but in the end your wish will be fulfilled.

d) For others, following some ideas from Wang BI, the 2 hexagrams points to 2 diferent energies or tendencies of chance present in the situation: in this case, one force leads to seek union (13) and other one leads to walk lonely (56). Wich one would prevail? That depends on your choices; you can see the advices on the text to decide.

e) There is still another way to interpret: following Gao Heng, you need to make some maths on the numbers of the lines (6,7,8,9). I don't want to confuse you (not that much, anyway ;) ), so I just say that in this case, your answer is in line 5 of hexagram 13, just like in option "c"

All this options uses the text. But there is a whole diferent way,wich doesn't use the text. And for this kind of question "more about prediction than for insight, plus yes/no", I have found more accurate this other method (najia). But for that method, I would need the month, day and hour when you get the answer from the Yijing.

Best wishes
 
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J

jesed

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The Yijing is a text. The text says what i quoted.
Another thing is your claim that no one should use the text, but your own interpretation, aka Emotional I Ching.
 
G

goddessliss

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Elvis seen as you think it is bollocks can you give me your interpretation
blesssings
Melissa
 

Trojina

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Hi,

I asked the Iching if I will have romance in the month of February and received Hex 13.1.5>56

I interpreted this as someone I already know coming thro my door and its joyous but we end up in misunderstandings then with 56 as one of us going off on our own.
So that doesn't make sense to me because I wld have thought it wld have been 23 splitting apart.
Athough sometimes I note that the hex that follows is read as preceding?
If anyone can make sense of what I am trying to say cld u plse help.

I am not so interested in the romantic bit as I am to understand the following hex 56 not being 23.

blessings
Melissa

IMO 56 as the relating hexagram is not the future but the background or context of the question. But people vary very much on how they use the relating hex as Jesed said. Personally I find it about 100% more effective to see the relating hex as the context. Hence in a situation in which you feel somewhat an outsider (56) you join with others in an open way (13.1) and perhaps reunite with someone (13.5)
 
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gato

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to me looks like a short relation.... nothing deep just good times.
 

elvis

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The Yijing is a text. The text says what i quoted.
Another thing is your claim that no one should use the text, but your own interpretation, aka Emotional I Ching.

:rofl:

You presented the prose as if representative of the WHOLE ("The Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"; and 56 someone "with no family"", the fact is more that the prose you used is more reflective of a PARTIAL interpretation of those hexagrams.

23 covers an overall focus on pruning/houskeeping which can include reference to the price of NOT doing such. 56 covers an overall focus on personal loyalty and can include reference to 'with no family' NEAR.

We can validate such through consideration of these hexagrams skeletal forms - 23 is represented by 24 and so we bring out the seasonal dynamic covered in pruning etc.

Using traditional sequence pairs:

* In the traditional sequence hexagram 23 pairs with hexagram 24.

With this pair, just as 23 prunes, and does so from within the belief, so 24 returns to the belief. Both reflect 'coming back to'.

RETURN TO FAITH:

23 : return to the faith - through refurbishing, pruning; 23 refurbish, prune, comes out of a context described by hexagram 24 - returning

24 : return to the faith - through come back to; 24 returning comes out of a context described by hexagram 23 - pruning

56 is represented by 55 and brings out diversities in loyalties and preference for one.

Using traditional pairing:

* In the traditional sequence hexagram 56 pairs with hexagram 55.

GOING BEYOND:

55 : going beyond - through overflow, abundance, diversity; 55 abundance, diversity comes from a context described by hexagram 56 - loyalty

56 : going beyond - through loyalty, stay focused; 56 loyalty comes from a context described by hexagram 55 - diversity
 

elvis

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For additional meaning applicable to 23 and 56 see the tables in:

http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx100000.html
http://www.emotionaliching.com/lofting/bx101100.html

These tables cover the I Ching describing itself by reference to itself - not tied to the quotes of other interpreters as found in traditional texts. The original interpreters LACKED precision in their understanding. They did 'fine' given their limitations but we can now get the IC to tell us directly about itself and with no reference to the 'assistance' of human interpreters when covering CLASSES of meanings - thus leaving local context interpretations to consciousness.

IOW 23 is a lot more that "spoiled" as is 56 more than "with no family""
 

fkegan

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Hi,

I asked the Iching if I will have romance in the month of February and received Hex 13.1.5>56

I interpreted this as someone I already know coming thro my door and its joyous but we end up in misunderstandings then with 56 as one of us going off on our own.
So that doesn't make sense to me because I wld have thought it wld have been 23 splitting apart.
Athough sometimes I note that the hex that follows is read as preceding?
If anyone can make sense of what I am trying to say cld u plse help.

I am not so interested in the romantic bit as I am to understand the following hex 56 not being 23.

blessings
Melissa

Hi Melissa,

Returning to your original question and Oracle response you ask about having Romance in this month of February and received the response of hex 13.1,5 >56.

Hex 13 is about mingling with others and relating. The hexagram name in my Flux Tome interpretation is Love Song, so it can be filled with Romance though also with a distance or concept rather than deep love (hex 31) or immediate gratification (hex 54).
That Oracle answer has two highlighted possibilities line 1 and line 5. Line 1 is about hooking up with someone you meet by going out. Line 5 is about working hard over quite a while to work through problems and make the romantic relationship work.

Hex 56 is about the romantic image of the Wanderer or Cowboy who has left behind home and family to search out a new and better reality beyond.

As an Oracle of your personal narrative, it suggests there are romantic opportunities available to you in February of various kinds requiring different efforts upon your part resulting in your figuring out what it is that you truly want and need for yourself and being willing to go after that.

There is not hex 23 in your oracle because the Yi isn't at all saying things will not work out well; but rather challenging you to get involved in your own life, at whatever level of effort and involvement you wish, which will have the ultimate result of clarifying what it is you truly desire and you are willing to go after and make happen if it involves more time and personal involvement than just throwing pennies.

Good Luck with your quest for Romance...

Frank
 
G

goddessliss

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Thankyou Frank. Your interpretation makes a whole lot of sense.

And that is exactly what is going on. I have met a man who, by just being who he is, is helping me clarify and look at things in a different way. Himself at present is seeking out a different way to look at things and 'run' his life , so I guess that can be letting go of the familiar(family way) of doing things?
I was thinking this morning about how I have had to rely on my own thoughts etc. to work things out. Sure I talk it over with friends but conversation with this man it is just different.
He is interested in the romantic side of things but I am still not seeing that as a possibility, and he is fine so far with us just being friends and getting to know each other.

Blessings,
Melissa
 
J

jesed

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You presented the prose as if representative of the WHOLE ("The Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"; and 56 someone "with no family"",
No, I didn't. I just quoted the Yijing.
I'm not saying those phrases from the wing are the WHOLE meaning of the hexagram.

Best wishes
 

elvis

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No, I didn't. I just quoted the Yijing.
I'm not saying those phrases from the wing are the WHOLE meaning of the hexagram.

Best wishes

then maybe you need to be more wary of the structure of your prose since this statement is assertive, containing no alternatives and as such is misleading to newbies:

"The Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"; and 56 someone "with no family"

The above is ALL YOU SAID in the message. perhaps better to write "The I Ching says that 23, amongst other things, means something "spoiled"...
 
J

jesed

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perhaps better to write "The I Ching says that 23, amongst other things, means something "spoiled"...
There is only one Wing about the general meaning of each hexagram. So, I can't say : the I Ching say that 23, amongst other things, means something "spoiled". Because the text named Yijing (or I Ching) doesn't gives any other meaning for 23.

Of course, I'm aware that the Wings are not the only source to derivate other meanings of any hexagram. You can derivate others meanings from the Judgement text; from the Image text; from the text of the lines; from the structure of the lines; from the name of the hexagram; from the trigrams and thier relationship; from the stems and branches; from other authors and scholars (I include you in authors); from your own experience with the hexagram; from others' experiences with the hexagram; from meditation and dreams; etc.

That's why I say: The Yijing says X hexagram means Y (quoting the text), but I'm not saying that is the only meaning of X hexagram

Best wishes
 

hilary

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Good grief, Chris, if I say -

Chris says, "23 covers an overall focus on pruning/houskeeping which can include reference to the price of NOT doing such."

- then is anyone going to assume that this is all Chris has to say about 23? I think it's reasonable to quote from a body of written work without needing to state at every turn that there is, in fact, also some text you haven't quoted.

(It's nice to see someone quoting the Zagua, anyway. I think it merits more attention.)
 

elvis

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Good grief, Chris, if I say -

Chris says, "23 covers an overall focus on pruning/houskeeping which can include reference to the price of NOT doing such."

- then is anyone going to assume that this is all Chris has to say about 23? I think it's reasonable to quote from a body of written work without needing to state at every turn that there is, in fact, also some text you haven't quoted.

Good grief Hilary there is a marked difference in the inclusion of such terms as "an overall focus" (implying more depth present) and "can include reference" (more implications re content) vs the absolute statement given by Jesed of "The Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"; and 56 someone "with no family"

In fact the I Ching in the form of hexagrams alone (ignoring the Chinese interpretations etc) tells us a huge amount of information re hexagram meanings through the language nature of the representations (and as such the I Ching in its purest form of universals transcends the local interpretations by some considerable degree.)

Jesed in his response writes:

"You can derivate others meanings from the Judgement text; from the Image text; from the text of the lines; from the structure of the lines; from the name of the hexagram; from the trigrams and thier relationship; from the stems and branches; from other authors and scholars (I include you in authors); from your own experience with the hexagram; from others' experiences with the hexagram; from meditation and dreams; etc."

...but in doing so misses the point that the language nature is not of my making etc it is inbuilt property of the form of representation where such was MISSED by the original interpreters/translators in that they had to rely on prose, and highly subjective at that, and in doing so missed the universal nature of the material - the "traditional I Ching" as such is a PART of the WHOLE, it is NOT the WHOLE of what is covered in the representations.

Thus INBUILT to the holistic forms of representation, the hexagram structures themselves, is information NOT considered in traditional, more contemporary, interpretations/translations since people have focused on partial formats, serial languages not holistic language.

Thus when one writes such as "the Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled"" is blatantly 'bollocks' given the 3000+ years of consideration since such prose was written. The associated PROSE may say that but the I Ching says a lot more in a HOLISTIC form. We can REMOVE all Chinese prose from the I Ching representations and still have meaning since there is no relation of that prose to the symbols; the prose is like a Rosetta Stone translating a hieroglyphics language into a different ideographic and on into an audition-based language. In fact we have MORE meaning in the images than is present in the original Chinese prose.

So - the SYMBOL of hexagram 23 has meaning present derivable from using the whole of the I Ching as a language and as such transcends such as ""the Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled" and with NO REFERENCE NEEDED to any local terms/texts etc - the meaning of hex 23 is thus extractable using XORing alone (where such is a property of our brains and is associated with the methodology of recursion) such that the 'hieroglyphic' form of the I Ching contains a LOT more than "23 means something "spoiled" where such is mindlessly quoted from the traditional text reflecting a fundamentalist perspective where only the traditional material is 'truth' .

As a newbie if one is told "the Yijing says 23 means something "spoiled" from someone presenting as if knowledgeable then that is accepted, trusted, and later has to be UNLEARNT; it is like getting kids to believe in Santa or the tooth fairy or Easter bunny where it all has to be unlearnt (and some kids feeling betrayed as a result!) - then of course there is the missing reference information (cbapter/page/verse etc) ;-)
 
G

goddessliss

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Hey all,
I have found it interesting that, what to me was a simple question, turned in to such a debate, but the comment Elvis makes about newbies may be believing in what is said, I have realised that mistake and have looked further into it and other peoples interpretations.
So I ask anyone giving interpretations or advice, just be very careful what you say.

Blessings,
Melissa
 

edge

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http://www.onlineClarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=4453
I think this sticky that Hilary posted makes that point very well. I also think though that there is a responsibility when you start to explore the iching to actually try and learn, the information/books/articles/resources are all out there, and often people seem do an online reading and come here to get other's interpretations rather than trying to do some of the work themselves first. We are all responsible for our own learning, AND for being sensitive when interpreting other people's readings. Its also nice to say thank you when someone tries to help, something that doesn't always happen!
E
 
G

goddessliss

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Yes edge, you are right and I wld like to think that I have thanked anyone and everyone who has shown an interest in my questions etc.
I really just want to learn.........the IChing but about myself as I just want to be of service, generally, and u can't really unless u know thyself honestly.

blessings
Melissa
 

edge

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um no, actually, I've tried to help you a couple of times, and have never been thanked or acknowledged, maybe it slipped past you...
 
G

goddessliss

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Oh I am so sorry edge, that was not my intention. If I have overlooked thanking you I apologise.

Blessings,
Melissa x
 
G

goddessliss

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Just found a post you helped me with Jan 28th. Was in a very bad space at the time but I can assure you if you hadn't replied and said what you said I prob wldn't have sought the help and got through it.
Melissa xx
 

hilary

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A note - for "newbies"! - about the interaction between Jesed and Elvis (Chris) here. Jesed quoted from the Yijing itself, from one of the Wings, the Zagua, that offers a simple definition of each hexagram's meaning. My personal opinion would be that this Wing was written to help students grasp and remember the contrasting meanings of the hexagrams, and there's quite a lot of subtlety in its simplicity at times. So it's not just that when Jesed writes 'The Yijing says...' he's being literally accurate, he's also made (IMO) a good choice of text to quote for someone trying to get hexagram meanings clear in their mind.

Chris objects to this, because he feels that his own work has superseded the words of the original Yijing.
 

edge

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No problem melissa, I understand! I'm glad if it was helpful,
E
 

elvis

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A note - for "newbies"! - about the interaction between Jesed and Elvis (Chris) here. Jesed quoted from the Yijing itself, from one of the Wings, the Zagua, that offers a simple definition of each hexagram's meaning. My personal opinion would be that this Wing was written to help students grasp and remember the contrasting meanings of the hexagrams, and there's quite a lot of subtlety in its simplicity at times. So it's not just that when Jesed writes 'The Yijing says...' he's being literally accurate, he's also made (IMO) a good choice of text to quote for someone trying to get hexagram meanings clear in their mind.

Chris objects to this, because he feels that his own work has superseded the words of the original Yijing.

FALSE - my complaint was to the assertion of prose in a thread started by a newbie where the assertion had no references, no qualifications and presented the quote AS IF an absolute assertion of the I Ching. Such an act is MISLEADING to newbies, and the newbie concerned even acknowledged my comments. You really need to be careful on you assertions re my points of view Hilary, read more carefully what is being covered rather than try to symmetrise information into 'competitive' formats ('me vs you') etc etc. The MANNER in which Jesed wrote was at fault IN THE CONTEXT of this thread being from a newbie. Simple.
 

Trojina

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bollocks. :mischief:

FALSE - my complaint was to the assertion of prose in a thread started by a newbie where the assertion had no references, no qualifications and presented the quote AS IF an absolute assertion of the I Ching. Such an act is MISLEADING to newbies, and the newbie concerned even acknowledged my comments. You really need to be careful on you assertions re my points of view Hilary, read more carefully what is being covered rather than try to symmetrise information into 'competitive' formats ('me vs you') etc etc. The MANNER in which Jesed wrote was at fault IN THE CONTEXT of this thread being from a newbie. Simple.

:confused: you called someones interpretation 'bollocks' but you say they are 'at fault' ? Isn't the place for your accusations ''Moderation' if anywhere ? Are you aware of the new rules for the forum ?
 
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gato

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2 cents
i think every bit of information is helpful: good or bad/false or true.

it's up to the reader to discern.

:bows:
 

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