Hello all,
A follow-up to my last post several weeks back. The man in question and I spent more time together and are more on the same page. However, there are several problems. First is his hesitation about intimacy based, according to him, on health issues. His health is very poor now and he's on some serious medication, is being treated for anxiety attacks, and other serious physical issues. These are short term and resolvable, not mortally threatening. And though the health problems are real, I cannot help think that they're either due to me or a reason for him to pull back from me somehow. He seems to be doing so, saying one thing, doing another. I dont know to what extent it is fear, or health, and how I should act. So I've asked the Yi a few questions.

Show me a picture of him now: 48.4 (and forgot the last hex, but i believe it was Preponderance of the Great).

How can I best help him: 2.4 and 16. I take this to mean keep a low profile but be enthusiastic if he phones me. If you see it differently, please share.

Can I hope for Romance with him? 49.2 and 17
Should I address him only as a friend? 55.1 and 62.
If I flirt with him? Hex 17.2.4 and hex 60 Limitation.
So then, if i do this, am receptive and do not openly flirt, what is the best possible outcome? 43.2 and 49

I am curious what this 43.2>49 means. Especially 49. Is the molting revolution a change *within* our dynamic to something better, or signifying a breakage of whatever we have now, to a departure of ways??

Line: 2: A cry of alarm. Arms at evening and at night. Fear nothing.
The Superior Man is always on his guard and so, when there is an alarm, he does not become excited and flustered. When reason triumphs over fear, he treats difficulties as though they did not exist. As he develops his strength of character, so others submit to him without argument.

That phrase "when reason triumphs over fear" certainly would be nice, but can it be taken literally ??

And hex 49. Ko / Revolution (Molting)
Revolution. On your own day You are believed. Supreme success. Furthering through perseverance. Remorse disappears. The Image Fire in the lake: the image of Revolution. Thus the superior man Sets the calendar in order.

And what does the "Calendar" mean here?

Hello Elizabeth
It's good to hear that you and he are more on the same page now, however from what you write it seems like his health issues are still perceived as an obstacle for you both to get it together.

So then, if i do this, am receptive and do not openly flirt, what is the best possible outcome? 43.2 and 49

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If you do this, the best possible outcome will be that you will be departing from old habits and that this will be showing everyone that change is possible, and once it starts change spreads like wildfire. You will be setting a scene which will be easier for the relationship to follow.
By putting the situation (i.e the calendar) right through guarding against flirting and being receptive to his needs, you will be armed (not so dependant on him) and ready to accept what he then feels he is able to offer to the relationship.
Best wishes
Mike

Thanks Mike. So it seems this is the best course for me, that the Yi is suggesting I do this. He knows I have feelings for him but I wont be the one to initiate anything - calls or meetings or taking his hand or even a kiss on the cheek. I will just sort of... Wait. And be receptive.

I *hate* waiting!

Hi Elizabeth
Do you think in this case that being receptive is just about waiting?
From my experience, being receptive can sometimes be about looking at the situation from another persons perspective. Listening out.

Be well
Mike

Hi Mike,

Well taken literally...yeah I thought it meant:
-Do not initiate but when offered, accept gracefully. I thought that was the essence of Hexagram 2, sort of the "female" hexagram, the recipient of the suitor's affections/attentions/time/offers etc.

You make an interesting point though and one I had not thought of. Part of my problem here -- and you touched on this -- is the line between friendship and intimacy. Or rather friendship and courting behavior. I don't feel comfortable contacting him repeatedly bc that is aggressive (not receptive) in my view. But you seem to suggest that listening or tuning it to *what he needs now* might be "being receptive" as well. The most I can judge from that is space. Example: He is sick now. So we don't see each other. He needs space and time to heal.

I phoned last night, the first time I ever have, but worried to death it was a bad move. He seemed to enjoy the call. But I dont want to be "chasing" him...or bugging him if he wants to be alone.

Otherwise I can only listen to what he tells me (which sometimes conflicts with what he does, or with other things he says...ahem. Men!)

In thinking further about this, I asked the Yi what is the basic problem between this man and me (Presuming there is one). It gave me Grace, Hex 22, unchanging twice.

I think this is interesting though I'm not sure I understand the full extent of it. At first glance it looks positive - we have grace? One of us has grace? The relationship is graceful? But I read the hexagram and one interpretation says that "Grace – beauty of form – is necessary in any union if it is to be well ordered and pleasing rather than disordered and chaotic." I guess then we are missing the aspects of orderliness? Everything is out of order now. Shoot, this rings true.

How do I put it back in order?

Hex 11 Peace lines 1,3; and hex 7 the army.

That has me stumped!

elizabeth said:

Show me a picture of him now: 48.4 (and forgot the last hex, but i believe it was Preponderance of the Great).

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Hes taking time to heal...he needs a bit of space he can't function well right now. obviously this ties in with what you said about him being ill and his anxiety.

How can I best help him: 2.4 and 16. I take this to mean keep a low profile but be enthusiastic if he phones me. If you see it differently, please share.

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Theres not alot you can do to help him. Whats happening with him is a process hidden to your view..that seems to tie in with 48.4 also as it would seem hes going through some inner 'stuff' right now. When alot is happening on the inside its hard to be fully present in relationships. Anyway don't worry about how tohelp him, his process is out of your hands...all you can do is just be there, let him know your're there if he needs you for anything.

Can I hope for Romance with him? 49.2 and 17
Should I address him only as a friend? 55.1 and 62.
If I flirt with him? Hex 17.2.4 and hex 60 Limitation.
So then, if i do this, am receptive and do not openly flirt, what is the best possible outcome? 43.2 and 49

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LOL oh no you're on a roll tonight seriously though from what your're saying i reckon there may be so much inner stuff happening with him he just can't focus too much on making things work with you at the moment....and maybe your best bet is really just to be there for him if you care about him(hex 2). it does sound like hes having a tough time and thoughts of romance aside (and romance often isn't very loving cos we are thinking of what we want all the time...not saying you are but...and heck romance would be very diffcult when one is having anxiety attacks which are really horrible things to have) you can be there as a caring friend ...

anyway on to the questions...49.2 well it would look like a timely change in the basis of your relationship is on the cards...though i am a usual very hesitant to say this means you will have a romance...as Nicky P said the other day I'm not sure Yi sees romance the way we modern westerners do..

55.1 we have been discussing 55.1 alot in a thread by Ginnie further down the list. It can show a window of opportunity, a special time in a relationship that doesn't last forever but is certainly something to make use of. I'm not sure your question has been answered directly. My take is that you would do well to certainly be a friend to him, that your connection in some sense has a fatedness about it. Whether or not this goes where you want it to it is good to engage with this person. It doesn't say if you should only engage with him as a friend...its just saying you should engage with him. Maybe this rigid distinction between friend and lover is less useful than you think. Just being withhim however you can be seems good.

17.2.4 >60 If you flirt with him ? Mm no I think this advises you not to be too calculating or unnatural. 17.4 is about being somewhat false to gains ones own ends so you don't really want to go down that path and 17.2 shows that path to be the more immature one...besides flirting may actually limit your bond at this stage (hex 60) also if hes freakingout generally he may not be comfortable with full on flirting so maybe just playing it as you have been, receptive but demure is less demanding

I am curious what this 43.2>49 means. Especially 49. Is the molting revolution a change *within* our dynamic to something better, or signifying a breakage of whatever we have now, to a departure of ways??

Line: 2: A cry of alarm. Arms at evening and at night. Fear nothing.
The Superior Man is always on his guard and so, when there is an alarm, he does not become excited and flustered. When reason triumphs over fear, he treats difficulties as though they did not exist. As he develops his strength of character, so others submit to him without argument.

That phrase "when reason triumphs over fear" certainly would be nice, but can it be taken literally ??

And hex 49. Ko / Revolution (Molting)
Revolution. On your own day You are believed. Supreme success. Furthering through perseverance. Remorse disappears. The Image Fire in the lake: the image of Revolution. Thus the superior man Sets the calendar in order.

And what does the "Calendar" mean here?

Click to expand...

i think the calender means one is aware of the natural timing of things, being aware of the seasons in things. You can't make things happen before they are ready to happen just like we can't have snow in summer. You want a big change in the realtionship, 49.2 seemed positive for that..but theres a right time for it to happen

Anyway 43.2 best possible outcome ? Hmm I'm stumped there..i never get 43.2 and don't have much of a feel for it at all. 43 is about stating your truth...43.2 talks about dangers inherant in that presumably and being prepared..but i can't see how that relates to your question. Hopefully someone else has thooughts on that....you see i get brain fatigue after answering more than 2 questions but i will give it some thought

overall i think its good you call him, just to be friendly. my feeling is you should let this relationship run on...the 43.2 may refer to your feelings of panic about getting the relationship you want with him.. You do seem to have a sense of urgency, like you need to know if he is going to be a boyfriend or just a friend...but actually right now just being caring towards him may be the best way and then maybe the changes you desire to come between you will happen in their own time (49.2)

Interesting you got the fan yao of 43.2, 49.2 also

Hi Trojan,

I know I can always count on you for razor sharp insights. Thanks for replying to this thread

trojan said:

Hes taking time to heal...he needs a bit of space he can't function well right now. obviously this ties in with what you said about him being ill and his anxiety.

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Yes, as I suspected...

trojan said:

Theres not alot you can do to help him. Whats happening with him is a process hidden to your view..that seems to tie in with 48.4 also as it would seem hes going through some inner 'stuff' right now. When alot is happening on the inside its hard to be fully present in relationships. Anyway don't worry about how tohelp him, his process is out of your hands...all you can do is just be there, let him know your're there if he needs you for anything.

Click to expand...

That is VERY True. I did not want to bring this into the thread but he has lots of -- inner/psychological concerns, many of which he has shared with me, and unfortunately could impede him getting close to me if he allows it. I am just praying that does not happen. Already it somewhat seems to be tho. :-(

trojan said:

LOL oh no you're on a roll tonight

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Ha sorry, when it rains...

trojan said:

seriously though from what your're saying i reckon there may be so much inner stuff happening with him he just can't focus too much on making things work with you at the moment....and maybe your best bet is really just to be there for him if you care about him(hex 2). it does sound like hes having a tough time and thoughts of romance aside (and romance often isn't very loving cos we are thinking of what we want all the time...not saying you are but...and heck romance would be very diffcult when one is having anxiety attacks which are really horrible things to have) you can be there as a caring friend ...

Click to expand...

Ugh, all true. I am scared by "at the moment" bc in the past "at the moment" has been "forever". and I really dont want that to happen here. My question is *how much* do I 'be there for him"? A daily phonecall? Total space and no contact? What does HE need? This is what I do not know and cannot see, so I would rather err on leaving him alone in his "cave." If he were to tell me to disappear, or that we could not date, or that he only wanted friendship or wanted nothing to do with me, I would do it, any of the above, in a split second. I dont care, I want him to get better first and foremost!

trojan said:

anyway on to the questions...49.2 well it would look like a timely change in the basis of your relationship is on the cards...though i am a usual very hesitant to say this means you will have a romance...as Nicky P said the other day I'm not sure Yi sees romance the way we modern westerners do..

Click to expand...

Well as I see it, change is either good or bad -- it moves either forward or backwards. So we become closer or -- things freeze and retreat into "friendship only mode." I wish I knew what the nature of the change in 49.2 was -- positive or negative.

trojan said:

55.1 we have been discussing 55.1 alot in a thread by Ginnie further down the list. It can show a window of opportunity, a special time in a relationship that doesn't last forever but is certainly something to make use of. I'm not sure your question has been answered directly. My take is that you would do well to certainly be a friend to him, that your connection in some sense has a fatedness about it. Whether or not this goes where you want it to it is good to engage with this person. It doesn't say if you should only engage with him as a friend...its just saying you should engage with him. Maybe this rigid distinction between friend and lover is less useful than you think. Just being withhim however you can be seems good.

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AGREED! I will take what he has to give! I am just, disappointed, and worried, that it is minimal to nothing...that he will shut me out. He had expressed feelings for me and when i responded he was shocked...and we came closer...then he freaked out. So i dont have my bearings really. I do not know how to act around him anymore. I suppose freindship only is a safe bet. He cant really blame me for being a friend but ... i dont know... frequency of contact/email/calls...i dont know about these things.

trojan said:

17.2.4 >60 If you flirt with him ? Mm no I think this advises you not to be too calculating or unnatural. 17.4 is about being somewhat false to gains ones own ends so you don't really want to go down that path and 17.2 shows that path to be the more immature one...besides flirting may actually limit your bond at this stage (hex 60) also if hes freakingout generally he may not be comfortable with full on flirting so maybe just playing it as you have been, receptive but demure is less demanding

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OK.. if flirting will limit anything i wont do it. Even tho, with him, it is coming more and more naturally

No flirting. Done.

trojan said:

i think the calender means one is aware of the natural timing of things, being aware of the seasons in things. You can't make things happen before they are ready to happen just like we can't have snow in summer. You want a big change in the realtionship, 49.2 seemed positive for that..but theres a right time for it to happen

Anyway 43.2 best possible outcome ? Hmm I'm stumped there..i never get 43.2 and don't have much of a feel for it at all. 43 is about stating oyur truth...43.2 talks about dangers inherant in that presumably and being prepared..but i can't see how that relates to your question. Hopefully someone else has thooughts on that....you see i get brain fatigue after answering more than 2 questions but i will give it some thought

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This stumps me too. Best possible outcome: state your truth & be prepared for danger? Does not sound promising and in fact sounds like what already happened -- i shared my feelings and now am worried he's pulling away. Well, he IS pulling away...

trojan said:

overall i think its good you call him, just to be friendly. my feeling is you should let this relationship run on...the 43.2 may refer to your feelings of panic about getting the relationship you want with him.. You do seem to have a sense of urgency, like you need to know if he is going to be a boyfriend or just a friend

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Yes the urgency began last month. I can't get it out of my system, its a daily fight. I dont know where it comes from. I haven't felt this way about anyone in over a decade... Kind of like lovesickness only i have no proof he even feels that way towards me! (stupid, i know!)

>>"actually right now just being caring towards him may be the best way and then maybe the changes you desire to come between you will happen in their own time (49.2) Interesting you got the fan yao of 43.2, 49.2 also"

If that is what 49.2 means, that the changes *I desire* will happenin time, then i am PLEASED TO COOL IT and sit tight!! I will wait a long time if that is true!!

And..finally: What is the Fan Yao?

Hey if the flirting is coming naturally do it..just avoid anything that feels false.

The fan yao is the the change line in the relating hexagram...its just like a mirror image of the change line you got in the primary hexagram..no big deal its just it can sometimes help you understand the change line you got in the primary hexagram.

you got 49.2>43 then
43.2 >49 so these answers were mirrors of each other so maybe the corresponding questions were mirrors of each other

Hmm, interesting. "Can i hope for romance with him' and "what is the best possible outcome" were those two questions, respectively. Does that mean the answers are the same, or opposites?

I asked one final (I promise) question today. What does he want from me? 21.1.6 >16.

Biting through has always confused me and I only first received it last month, also in relation to this man.
I am not clear if this means, he wants me to bite thru the problem, he feels fettered both hand and foot... or something else. I know i asked the Yi what *he* wnats and it could be showing me what I should want or do... but either way, this doesnt seem to reflect desire as much as situation - ie it is this way?

OK. No more readings for today!

By the way, Trojan, I found this about 43.2 'best possible outcome if i do X":

# Be anxious, worried, upset.
# Take pity on; sympathize with.
# Have mercy on; show kindness to.
# Enliven, make prosperous.

ANd 49 meaning: to unmask, no facade; "It's about transformation, and being aware of the right time to shed the old ways and begin anew. It's about shedding old skins, masks, beliefs or encrusted ways of thought. And about the inevitability of change... when it's the right season for it. The thing about revolutions, though, is that actually there aren't any liberators and there's no one to be liberated." Maybe this means I can either improve the situatio ("enliven make prosperous") or be anxious about it, and in the end the best possible outcome will be some shift from where i am now?

But where I am now *is already* anxious and worried.

He phoned last night and in the course of the call mentioned a second time that a former student of his (who happens to be from Czech rep and i found her photo online, v beautiful but younger than i am) will be stayhing with him for 1 1/2 mos from mid-May onwards. He had told me this before we really had our first "date" and said i should meet her. But now i am worried he's interested in her, however irrational that worry may be. He also in passing said i shoudl tell my SISTER that she could stay in that same extra room come July.

He knows that as of late August I will be looking for not only a place to stay but a job (I'm going away for a few months and returning then). But there was no mention or offer of ME staying there. And that hurts like hell bc I presume it is a very clear sign of rejection...

What message was he trying to send me on the phone last night? 58.4 and 54.

That line: Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace. After ridding himself of mistakes a man has joy.

Is it telling me i should be happy for some reason? Why am i not? Were these just innocent comments? What am i not seeing?


Is there anything positive here at all??

Hi Elizabeth
It sounds like you are getting a much better picture of where you need to be going - what you need to put into the relationship to achieve the best possible outcome.
Just to pick up on one comment out of th emany made here.....

This stumps me too. Best possible outcome: state your truth & be prepared for danger?

Click to expand...

I would see this as being if we are living in our truth and being who we truely are (not the facade that we all normally wear) then we are able to cope with whatever comes are way. It's being able to see beyond the facade of the old masks that is the trick here...it's the old masks that we need to skin. At times they are stuck with glue and need a really really determined effort to pull them off.

Be well
Mike

Hi Mike, ( my key)

See beyond the facade of old masks... you mean other people's masks? In this case, his old mask? (or the current one i'm trying to peel off?)

IF that's the case -- it doesnt seem to be off all the way bc i cannot *see* what is underneath. It could go either way. Maybe he's taking time, doing the rubberband, building up a wall, regenerating (48.4 building the lining of his well back up). Or maybe *this* is the new status quo. I do not know. Is there something you see that i do not? Is there something I'm not asking, that i should?

elizabeth said:

By the way, Trojan, I found this about 43.2 'best possible outcome if i do X":

# Be anxious, worried, upset.
# Take pity on; sympathize with.
# Have mercy on; show kindness to.
# Enliven, make prosperous.

ANd 49 meaning: to unmask, no facade; "It's about transformation, and being aware of the right time to shed the old ways and begin anew. It's about shedding old skins, masks, beliefs or encrusted ways of thought. And about the inevitability of change... when it's the right season for it. The thing about revolutions, though, is that actually there aren't any liberators and there's no one to be liberated." Maybe this means I can either improve the situatio ("enliven make prosperous") or be anxious about it, and in the end the best possible outcome will be some shift from where i am now?

But where I am now *is already* anxious and worried.

He phoned last night and in the course of the call mentioned a second time that a former student of his (who happens to be from Czech rep and i found her photo online, v beautiful but younger than i am) will be stayhing with him for 1 1/2 mos from mid-May onwards. He had told me this before we really had our first "date" and said i should meet her. But now i am worried he's interested in her, however irrational that worry may be. He also in passing said i shoudl tell my SISTER that she could stay in that same extra room come July.

He knows that as of late August I will be looking for not only a place to stay but a job (I'm going away for a few months and returning then). But there was no mention or offer of ME staying there. And that hurts like hell bc I presume it is a very clear sign of rejection...

What message was he trying to send me on the phone last night? 58.4 and 54.

That line: Joyousness that is weighed is not at peace. After ridding himself of mistakes a man has joy.

Is it telling me i should be happy for some reason? Why am i not? Were these just innocent comments? What am i not seeing?


Is there anything positive here at all??

Click to expand...

There is the possibilty that if he were very attracted to you he may find it impossible to share a flat with you. Thats me not the Yi BTW

58.4 is about weighing up pros and cons, choosing best options. I'm wonderingif he was either testing you outin the phone call or asking you for advice about this girl staying, maybe hes not sure about it. 58.4 says hes not sure about something.

Hanging on to see what he wants must be nerve wracking and i do appreciate you can't raise your hopes and go on hanging on forever...but right now you don't seem to have much choice so i guess you have tofind a way to get some peace with this.

One thing about 49.2 it does say 'he makes changes..' i don't think 49.2 just waits for things to change. I wonder what would happen if you were completely open with him about your feelings ? I guess you'd know one way or the other at least

On the plus side he did ring last night don't let your fear of rejection get in your way...I know sometimes we can be so eager not to be the rejected one we do the rejecting first when the other actually wasn't intending to reject us in the first place....the joys of being human lol

elizabeth said:

Hi Mike, ( my key)

See beyond the facade of old masks... you mean other people's masks? In this case, his old mask? (or the current one i'm trying to peel off?)

IF that's the case -- it doesnt seem to be off all the way bc i cannot *see* what is underneath. It could go either way. Maybe he's taking time, doing the rubberband, building up a wall, regenerating (48.4 building the lining of his well back up). Or maybe *this* is the new status quo. I do not know. Is there something you see that i do not? Is there something I'm not asking, that i should?

Click to expand...

Hi Elizabeth
I'm going to answer your question by not answering it -what I see is that you already have the answer. What I see or anybody else sees in these readings or messages from the oracle are what we see. What is really important is what you see, what you make of it all -what you see as the answer.

Relationship questions that may help
a) What is the real situation between X and me?
b) What is X's role in the relationship?
c) What is my role in the relationship?

And then slow down -spend a whole lot of time inside the tunnel that these spin...until you drift out the other end with some greater understanding.

Remember, stay with the process.You really are doing a great job here. Keep at it, keep biting through. Recognise that everything that is happening is positive.

Be well
Mike

Mike, I dont know about it all being positive. Reminds me of Candide .

Anyway I posed your questions.
What is the real situation between him and me? hex 23. Twice. Unchanging.

That sounds like it is over. Is there any way other than that, to see hex 23?

What is his role in our relationship? hex 5.2.3.5>24
5. Hsu / Waiting (Nourishment)
The Judgement Waiting. If you are sincere, You have light and success. Perseverance brings good fortune. It furthers one to cross the great water.

The Image Clouds rise up to heaven: The image of Waiting.Thus the superior man eats and drinks, Is joyous and of good cheer.

line2: Waiting on the sand. There is some gossip. The end brings good fortune.

line 3: Waiting in the mud Brings about the arrival of the enemy.

line 5: Waiting at meat and drink. Perseverance brings good fortune.

24. Fu / Return (The Turning Point)
The Judgement - Return. Success. Going out and coming in without error. Friends come without blame. To and Fro goes the way. On the seventh day comes return. It furthers one to have somewhere to go.

The Image- Thunder within the earth: The image of The Turning Point. Thus the kings of antiquity closed the passes At the time of solstice. Merchants and strangers did not go about, And the ruler Did not travel through the provinces.
__

And finally what is my role in this relationship? 28 Prepond of the Great lines2&5 > 62 Preponderance of the small

28. Ta Kuo / Preponderance of the Great

The Judgement- Preponderance of the Great. The ridgepole sags to the breaking point. It furthers one to have somewhere to go. Success.

The Image- The lake rises above the trees: The image of Preponderance of the Great. Thus the superior man, when he stands alone, Is unconcerned, And if he has to renounce the world, He is undaunted.

line 2: A dry poplar sprouts at the root. An older man takes a young wife. Everything furthers.

line 5: A withered poplar puts forth flowers. An older woman takes a husband. No blame. No praise. (Oddly HE is older than I am)

+++

I will be honest. The last two answers seem to contradict the first. No?

trojan said:

There is the possibilty that if he were very attracted to you he may find it impossible to share a flat with you. Thats me not the Yi BTW

58.4 is about weighing up pros and cons, choosing best options. I'm wonderingif he was either testing you outin the phone call or asking you for advice about this girl staying, maybe hes not sure about it. 58.4 says hes not sure about something.

Hanging on to see what he wants must be nerve wracking and i do appreciate you can't raise your hopes and go on hanging on forever...but right now you don't seem to have much choice so i guess you have tofind a way to get some peace with this.

One thing about 49.2 it does say 'he makes changes..' i don't think 49.2 just waits for things to change. I wonder what would happen if you were completely open with him about your feelings ? I guess you'd know one way or the other at least

On the plus side he did ring last night don't let your fear of rejection get in your way...I know sometimes we can be so eager not to be the rejected one we do the rejecting first when the other actually wasn't intending to reject us in the first place....the joys of being human lol

Click to expand...

OK so 49.2 was the question "can i hope for romance with him." You say it means he makes changes. He DID change. He put out all these flirtatious messages and pulled back. He sent a cryptic email Monday (which hastn been referenced since) where he said "forgive me for initiating suggestive and flirtatious things and then retreating, giving you conflicting and confusing messages. That was very unfair to you. And unintended, as I know you know." With a smiley face. Followed by no more emails, but a nightly "friendly" phonecall. Today is my birthday and Sunday is Valentines day. We have no future plans to see each other. I 'm not taking phonecalls as lack of rejection at this point. I'm taking them as him "letting me down easy." I read that message (just mentioned) INITIALLY to mean he didnt mean to confuse me, he IS interested. His behavior this week, health issues aside, seems to contradict that. How far and how much do i bend or forgive? I dont know.

ALso the flat/girl staying was a done deal, arranged over a month ago-- he just mentioned it to me again last night for whatever weird reason.

Trojan i like your thought process - part of it echoes my own. I can't tell him how i feel bc mostly he already knows. He got me to open up emotionally, trust him a little and reveal my own feelings. He know has my cards. A girlfriend of mine says his offer was hollow and never serious. My heart physically hurts at that thought. It doesnt make sense but none of this, now, does...

elizabeth said:

I will be honest. The last two answers seem to contradict the first. No?

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Hi

Not necesarly

1.- Why you see 23 as "everything is over"? Seems more like your fear/hurt than the Yijing.
23 can be that the relation is in a process of splitting apart = ending, yes. But 23 can also be a process to rip the surface in order to get to the core of some topic.

2.- He is waiting, having patience, moving slowly but with confidence; and you are impatience, excesive, with doubt if this relation can be fruitful (line 2) or a waste of time (line 5). Obviously, two diferent directions. That makes sense to explain a 23 situation. Tension can lead to rip the surface in order to get to the core of the nature of the relation. And then, after you figure it out what0's the nature of the relation, you may decide to split apart as ending the relation, or to nourish a new time of light.

In any case, if there is a risk for the relation, the risk comes from a combination of too much patience in him combined with too much impatience in you.

Now... you can't do anything about how he acts; but you are responsible for your own emotions and your own decisions. One of the advices from hex 28 is to move: if the beam is crashing, you can take one of 2 options: reinforce it or leave the house. What you shouldn't do is stay under it. In other words: you can chose to temper your impatience or -if you can't temper it or don't want to do it- move over.

He is how he is. You can work with what is available...or decide no to do that. It is up TO YOU.

Best wishes

Oh and happy birthday!!!

elizabeth said:

OK so 49.2 was the question "can i hope for romance with him." You say it means he makes changes. He DID change. He put out all these flirtatious messages and pulled back. He sent a cryptic email Monday (which hastn been referenced since) where he said "forgive me for initiating suggestive and flirtatious things and then retreating, giving you conflicting and confusing messages. That was very unfair to you. And unintended, as I know you know." With a smiley face. Followed by no more emails, but a nightly "friendly" phonecall. Today is my birthday and Sunday is Valentines day. We have no future plans to see each other. I 'm not taking phonecalls as lack of rejection at this point. I'm taking them as him "letting me down easy." I read that message (just mentioned) INITIALLY to mean he didnt mean to confuse me, he IS interested. His behavior this week, health issues aside, seems to contradict that. How far and how much do i bend or forgive? I dont know.

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Oh so he knows what he's doing doesn't he !...hmmm. it is tricky isn't it...I think I might be starting to lose patience if i were you...really i would, but I'm not the most pateint person in the world but he shouldn't mess with your heart...and the fact that he knows hes messing makes me think back to the 37.3 you got some time back about this. If he knows what hes doing is he virtually goading you into some kind of reaction do you think ? At least him having said this if you did broach the subject you wouldn't look foolish because hes already admitted hes been flirting...and you couldn't be blamed for wanting a bit of seriousness of intent to know where you stand !

But what I know of men they don't make nightly 'friendly' phonecalls to girls they have been flirting with..just to be friendly. i think it fairly certain from all you said ..and from what he himself said he does have an interest in you and does find you attractive but what hes going to do about it seems he doesn't know ! And i agree he he likley does know of your interest now. Perhaps this is a case of how much patience you've got.

but you know first that email then nightly phone calls...i don't think he'd do that if he wanted to distance himself from you...but i agree his behaviour is rather unfathomable especially the email.




HAPPY BIRTHDAY I hope you have a good evening if he knows its your birthday i hope he sent you a card !

First is his hesitation about intimacy based, according to him, on health issues.

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Happy Birthday Elizabeth!!! welcome back !!!

my comment on quotes line is: if he can walk he can be intimate, no doubt about it, so take this as a warning.

Gato, Trojan and Jesed - thank you all for your birthday wishes! I was about to say "how did you know it was my birthday?" and then realized I just mentioned it. In any case, the wishes warmed my heart and mean a great deal from this little online Yi Ching Family!


So i will go in reverse order.

Gato - that is my fear exactly. I am younger than he is but I'm not 12 yrs old anymore
;-) I do think HE thinks he is pulling one over on me and this is sort of the main "red flag" in the mix: intimacy and shunning away from it.

Trojan - YES. He Is Trying My Patience! I was once in a short term relationship with another man. But the last *full month* of our "relationship" consisted of him living elsewhere (ie not the same apartment) calling me daily. One phonecall per day for 30 days. We never saw each other. I finally said look we dont have a relationship anymore. And he said he wasnt ready to break it off, and called a week later and broke it off. My point is: phonecalls aren't enough when he's a 20 min car ride away from me *in the same city*. Call me crazy.

Jesed- You are as always the voice of reason, and your message had a nice calming effect to it. Like Trojan, I tend to be impatient and it's hard when I feel something and want things to be a certain way, and they're not. I know life is mostly like that, and it doesnt tend to bother me in other areas, but in relationships it really does bother me.

I presumed 23 was ending, not ripping into the core of something. But if this is the case, that it can be revealing what the essence of something is, I suppose this is part of the process. Maybe the Yi is saying "this is how he is" which is what you pointed out as well: i cannot change him. But i can change my reaction TO him.

I dont know that i can deal with a back-and-forth see-saw for my entire life. This is the beginning stages of a would-be relationship and it's hard to handle. What happens later, then? It kind of puts me on guard to have this much hot/cold from him this early on.

On that note, i dont know how "excited" or enthusiastic i can be about things when the pace is so slow -- or actually, i dont mind slow, but this is an inconsistent pace-- and he seems now to be hiding. We have kissed, and so it is hurtful to go to that stage and then have someone disappear in a manner of speaking. I dont know that HE feels hurt, but i do, when i feel i showed my feelings and he pulled away. If he FEELS something for me, truly, then I'd expect some more desire to see me (granted he is sick but he is well enough to go out shopping these days), or maybe some romantic words at some point. But maybe i've been out of the dating scene too long & maybe such things do not happen in the early months.


I got a message from him just now - a friend took me out to lunch so i missed the call. He sang (!) happy bday on the phone, told me he was just at the store where he saw some cake which we will have at some point (he didnt buy it yet), said he will need "a few more days" for his throat, and that my bday gift from him will be a $75 session with a recruting agent in an area of a new profession i'm trying to break into. The gift idea is creative and very generous. I did not expect any gift at all, just maybe dinner out (which he promised before and now i wonder if this gift is instead of dinner? Pay me to stay away?? I know its negative thinking but i have to go with the lowest common denominator here in order to not be a fool!)

Again, i'm a bit at a loss for what this *means* in Male Speak!

All i can do i guess is be receptive and polite and wait. Bc i'm not willing yet to confront him dramatically...but i kind of assume that cryptic email was left vague for a reason, so that he can move whichever way he pleases?? Why else would he NOT confirm my question about what it really meant?

(sigh)

I will return his call and thank him, probably tomorrow. I need a break from this... And i dont expect to see him soon in any case...

Hi Elizabeth

What is the real situation between him and me? hex 23. Twice. Unchanging.

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The real situation between the two of you is one of "Stripping Away" - Things are dissolving around you enabling you to see behind the mask. What's going on isn't what you think it is and slowly you will realise this and when you realise you will start to feel more at peace.

Be Well
Mike

Hi Mike,

At peace, to me implies a positive state of being... and i hope to God you are right.

Toying with my emotions is not positive & I feel he's done so to some extent (based on other occurrences, not all of them listed in this thread). Its not clear what he wants or what he can give. He says one thing, does another. I have to look at the actions.

I just hope the timeframe for seeing the final outcome 23 is sooner rather than later, bc the long slow drawn-out taffy-pulling process is not "positive" for me!

In Andree´s technique for calendar, 23 goes from february 1st to September 15th.
Of course, our free will can make us move from one hex into another one in anytime. That's the power of our own decisions

Best wishes

OH my Lord. It's gonna be a LONG RIDE...!! Thanks Jesed... hmmm....

Hello again,

I just wanted to share an update, in partial thanks to each of you who helped me with these questions. I dont know if this is just another temporary appearance of the sunshine before the proverbial clouds take cover again, but yesterday I had a long unexpected conversation on the phone. He'd sent me an email answering my question about " which half was unintended" and I only got the email while we were on the phone - which prompted a big discussion.

The end result was a huge weight lifted off. I explained many things that he'd presumed I wanted (and dont) and he was surprised, bc he had been putting some pressure on himself needlessly, and was basically prepared to jump ship based on misconceived notions that were never there.

So - we are closer to the nucleus of whatever this issue is, we're on the same page, and that tension of this past week is now considerably lighter.

I dont know if he will flip again into his fears (i hope not!) but for now it seems to be moving in a positive direction towards each other rather than away from each other, as it felt.

So - again - thank you. 23 certainly was (and continues to be) splitting things down to the central kernels...

Another update, with a question. We had a wonderful time together Sunday, but he is still suffering from this terrible cold he has. And he seems to pull away (alot) when this happens. He'd voiced interest in attending a concert with me... i told him i was given complimentary tickets Friday, and then he said he was feeling worse so maybe shoudl not go. (this seems to be a pattern). It is unsettling to me bc I never know what the source is: is it really just his health (which i know 300% really is an issue now, there is no doubt about that), or is this partically also just an excuse not to see me or to keep some distance between us?

I asked the Yi today, "What attitude should I take towards him?" 8.6>20

I find this reading odd bc based on what i read, hex 20 derives from hex 8 somehow, and the two hexes together "represents attraction overall". 8 means unity, which is positive, but I had trouble with line 6, which sounds very negative. Other interpretations (more positive ones) suggest it means it is the line of "the flake" (I think trojan may have said that somewhere earlier?) , suggests there is no leader. And that hesitation is not a good thing when there is no leader.

To me that suggests I should be the leader? Except... since i'm not sure the extent of his feelings at this point, i do NOT want to push things.

20 = contemplation. Does that mean I need to think about this more? (It's all i do!) I also am interested what the "inquire again if you possess" means. I have read everything i can find about that online but it's not clear what question to ask if one is to ask again, and some suggest it isnt asking but just analyzing. (?)

In case there was or is a difference between "attitude" and "approach", i then asked what approach i should take towards him. 13.1.3.5.6 > 16 Enthusiasm.

Thoughts?

Hi, I'm wondering if you are at the point where more questions won't help but just confuse you further. If your questions are similar to the ones you asked a few weeks back do you pay attention to those or the new answers..?.hmmm

I have to stay away from computer today anyway...but I'm glad you and he are having a good time. To me it does seem like you two have something and I've thought that since you got the 37...way back, (in another thread)there is a sense of belonging there, a feeling of kinship almost.

The problem now is you defining exactly what the relationship is...but lots of questions,different answers might be more confusing, but maybe someone can help more...i gotta lie down again

personally i really hope this works out for you...which is strange because i usually feel neutral about peoples relationships questions.....if things don't work out you will have to break it to me gently

BTW 8.6 can simply mean difficulty in getting things together, theres lack of organisation. Someone needs to take charge but I'm not sure its advice to take charge oneself ? Perhaps others have a view on this

You know sometimes i think it would be easier if you gave one of us his number and we have a good talk with him about where he stands with you...you know cut out Yi the middle man ? The conversation would start "Ahem you don't know me...erm but I'm doing some research for a forum on divination and ......"