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64. Wei Chi / Before Completion

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maremaria

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seems like line 64.6 is not going to be discucced. The party has already started, lol


When i first came here, Rosada point me those threads. since then I go very often to read them. Its a treasure box.!!!

Well done Rosada !!!
Thank you and thanks to all those have participate .

champagne.gif
 

rosada

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Thank you all! Group hug! Yes, indeed, what a long strange trip it's been.
And just so we can celebrate without losing our heads, here are the rest of Wilhelm's comments:

Nine at the top:
a) There is drinking of wine
In genuine confidence. No blame.
But if one wets his head,
He loses it in truth.

b) When one wets his head while drinking wine it is because he knows no moderation.

The top line is strong and inherently favorable. the image of wine comes from the trigram K'an; the present line is in relationship with the top line of K'an.
As in the preceding hexagram, the image of a head-wetting occurs. But here it is only a possibility, an avoidable danger.

Before completion, at this dawning of the new time, friends foregather in an atmosphere of mutual trust, and the time of waiting is past in conviviality. Since the new era is hard on the threshold, there is no blame in this. But one must be careful in all this to keep within proper bounds. If in his exuberance a man gets drunk, he forfeits the favorableness of the situation through his intemperance.

NOTE. The hexagram AFTER COMPLETION represents a gradual transition from a time of ascent past a peak of culture to a time of standstill. The hexagram BEFORE COMPLETION represents a transition from chaos to order. This hexagram comes at the end of the Book of Changes. It points to the fact that every end contains a new beginning. Thus it gives hope to men. The Book of Changes is a book for the future.
-Wilhelm

Alright! If you are reading this, please pour yourself a glass and raise it in a toast to Hilary for creating this site, and Hilary's Dad and meng's Dad and elvis' Mom, to whom we dedicated our study back at hexagram 7, worthy ancestors all!
I have just had a delightful evening with my sister and 95 year old mother. I hope you all are likewise enjoying the glow.
rosada
 
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tuckchang

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64.6

Congratulation! A great job!
But don’t forget, to cross the river is for a mission at the other side of the river.

Text: Drinking wine with sincerity & trust (有孚 you3 fu2); no calamity (or fault). Soaking the head, (so) sincerity & trust lose what is right.Line 6 has successfully crossed the river and reaches the riverbank. It deserves celebration and drinking, but which must be done in conformity with sincerity & trust, i.e. to do it sincerely, i.e. not to become proud and reckless in the face of crises since it is still in the era of Wei Ji, and to do it trustily with the original intent since it still has unfinished mission to carry on; then it can be free from fault or calamity. If it indulges in drinking and soaks its head into wine, sincerity & trust will be lost and it won't be able to attain its end goal, like the fox soaking its head in the hexagram Ji Ji, wherein it is auspicious in the beginning but turns out to be disorderly at the end.

Confucian commentary on its image: Drinking wine and soaking the head, (signifying) it doesn’t know restrictions.Although it deserves a celebration for what it has achieved, it must still well regulate itself. People will get dizzy with success, and will suffer failure when they can’t sincerely & trustworthily maintain their original spirit and continue their mission targeted at the other side of the river.

Line 6 is the head; although it stays above the bottom and the inner upper trigram Kan, peril, it is still in correlation with line 3 and engaged with them. If it can act what is righteous, i.e. change to the feminine (then it can be the feminine staying at the position for femininity), the hexagram will become Xie (40), a) wherein it is thundering and raining, the drought will be alleviated and the holy land will prosper, b) wherein evil or the villain will be dismissed, c) wherein the upper trigram Zhen is moving away from the bottom trigram Kan.

The hexagram Wei Ji positioned at the end of 64 hexagrams symbolizes that the old ones reach the end but the new one starts right after; the world is circling ceaselessly, all life continues, generation by generation.

Regards
Tuck :bows:
 

frank_r

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64.6

Yes it was a great trip, how long was it since the beginning, more than 3 years.
I learned a lot reading all your different interpretations, everybody thanks. And especially Rosada who started this.

Frank
 

Trojina

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Thanks Rosada, for taking us all through this...and managing to keep posting the lines whatever was happening in your own life :hug:

Its a great resource for the future :D

Of course if we do get drunk and lose our heads we shall have to back to the beginning and start again......:eek:
 

fkegan

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Hi All,

I suggest we go more slowly before we rush to Completion of this series. We don't want to get our tails through the ice through hex 64.1 side action. Through other fluids like champagne, etc but not icy river water.

Also the more original content we add to these posts, the better our case for this as a student gloss toward the goal of memorizing the Wilhelm Text for possible Global I Ching Classic Civil Service Examination promoting sales of Bolligen P.U.P. Wilhelm Text and Fair Use rather than copyright infringement.

Perhaps we can tarry awhile upon hex 64 as the last of the I Ching 64, and fulfill Wilhelm's note upon the end of his commentary to have each Completion be the prelude to a new beginning.

Each of us could post suggestions for the next thread. Just focusing upon the published text may be a problem in light of new intellectual property vigilance from counsel for Bollingen. Frank Roosen notes this is the third year of this series. From hex 64.4 three years should be enough to discipline and instruct even the Devil's Country.

But what next? There is great value in this ongoing review of the Wilhelm for even the most experienced users and of course more for everyone else. Quo Vadis? (Where Are [We] Going [now]?

Frank

Frank
 

charly

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T... Alright! If you are reading this, please pour yourself a glass and raise it in a toast to Hilary for creating this site, and Hilary's Dad and meng's Dad and elvis' Mom, to whom we dedicated our study back at hexagram 7, worthy ancestors all!
I have just had a delightful evening with my sister and 95 year old mother. I hope you all are likewise enjoying the glow.
rosada
Hi, Rosada:

For all Dads and Moms that carried us where we are.

You have made a long trip through so many moving sands. It was indeed an initiation journey. Let me say with Tuck, NOW COMES THE BETTER, which will be your next project.

Congratulations, and thanks for the opportunity.

All the best,


Charly

P.D.

I apologize if maybe I was unwillingly rude sometimes. I will not tell you now what's the meaning of wetting one's head in 64.6. You can imagine it.

Ch.
 

charly

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:eek: Charly !!!!

:rofl:
Hi, María:

DRINKING WINE in ancient poetry meant TO KISS. Song of Songs connection attacks newly.

As soon as possible: why Wilhem ommited the second 有孚 YOU FU in 64.6?

Yours,

Charly
 

hilary

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(Rosada :hug: ... can't seem to find an Amazon wishlist with your name on it... is there one?)
 

neegula

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i thank you all so much for this wonderful thread...

to our ancestors and great children!

102_drinks.gif

:bows:
 

my_key

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There seems to be undue haste to pop the champagne corks and set off the fireworks. Have we remained correct to the cause through 64.5 ? If we have then let's celebrate (or for the monks in the team ... lets celebate:)) but remember we have to get up at 5.00am to catch that early ferry.

Charly - is there time still to say why Wilhem ommited the second 有孚 YOU FU in 64.6?

It's been a long old road to get to here.....
Rosada - Thank you for the spark that created this series of teachings
To you all - thank you for your great and knowledgable contributions. The diversity of it all has been wonderful. It has been a privilege to have been part of it with you all. A lot of learning and a lot of fun......may blessings be heaped on us all.

Where next? - Perhaps a wander into the EIC or Luis to post snippets of his hinted at book - start with Hex 1 and that gives him another 3 years to get it finished:).

Be Well

Mike

PS - some party music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_IPFOTUpEo&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFwFXlSwRk
 
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rosada

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Wilhelm usually didn't comment on the second hexagram, the one created when the lines changed, but here at the end he concludes with these thoughts on 64.6 changing into 43:

Thus at its close the Book of Changes leaves the situation open for new beginnings and new formations. The same idea indeed finds expression in the Tsa Kua, Miscellaneous Notes on the Hexagrams, in which Kuai, BREAK-THROUGH (43), is placed at the end, with these closing words:

BREAK-THROUGH means resoluteness. The strong turns resolutely against the weak. The way of the superior man is in the ascendant, the way of the inferior man leads to grief.
-Wilhelm
 

Trojina

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Wilhelm usually didn't comment on the second hexagram, the one created when the lines changed, but here at the end he concludes with these thoughts on 64.6 changing into 43:

Thus at its close the Book of Changes leaves the situation open for new beginnings and new formations. The same idea indeed finds expression in the Tsa Kua, Miscellaneous Notes on the Hexagrams, in which Kuai, BREAK-THROUGH (43), is placed at the end, with these closing words:

BREAK-THROUGH means resoluteness. The strong turns resolutely against the weak. The way of the superior man is in the ascendant, the way of the inferior man leads to grief.
-Wilhelm

eh ? 64.6 changes to 40 not 43

was Wilhelm drunk ?
 
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rosada

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Hunh. Maybe the T'sa Kua is a different system of ordering the hexagrams and in that system 43 comes at the end. Does anyone know?

Meanwhile 40 is good advice for the the final word,
"If there is no longer anywhere one has to go, return brings good fortune.
If there is still something where one has to go, hastening brings good fortune."
Thus the superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds."
-Wilhelm

I am going to be away from a computer for a couple of days. Any ideas what we should take up next? The trigrams perhaps?
-rosada
 

Sparhawk

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Where next? - Perhaps a wander into the EIC or Luis to post snippets of his hinted at book - start with Hex 1 and that gives him another 3 years to get it finished:).

Hey, I wouldn't mind focusing on CLofting's EIC for a while. It would be a good opportunity for a hands-on approach to his system. As for my book, I can say that it is gestating and it is also "novel" and a departure from the known symbology. I'm spending lots of time taking copious notes while studying archaeological sources, not only Chinese, but from almost every other civilization site, from neo-lithic times to the Bronze Age. The farther one goes back in time, the more common the symbology of duality in artistic expression, and that's key. The reason for all that background gathering, and the time I'm using in it, other than because it is fun, is to justify some of my conclusions to current and serious Yixue students and researchers. They could be controversial for Yijing traditionalists, of which I am one, used to some 3000 years of a standard system of firm and broken lines. My contention is that the lines we know today are an evolution, a morphing of an older system, perhaps in an effort to purposely obscure the divination system. But, standing alone, and sans any historical background, it is a simple and elegant system, it tickles your brain in a different way the current hexagrams do, and more than a few would say "how come I didn't think of that before?" Alas, the beauty of it is that it is still the Yijing, as far as the text is concerned, albeit with a different scaffolding. Still not ready to share more details, I'm afraid, lest I prompt faster and entrepreneurial writers to take advantage of the idea and present it as their own. I've seen it done... Thanks for remembering though. :)
 

fkegan

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Hunh. Maybe the T'sa Kua is a different system of ordering the hexagrams and in that system 43 comes at the end. Does anyone know?

Meanwhile 40 is good advice for the the final word,
"If there is no longer anywhere one has to go, return brings good fortune.
If there is still something where one has to go, hastening brings good fortune."
Thus the superior man pardons mistakes and forgives misdeeds."
-Wilhelm

I am going to be away from a computer for a couple of days. Any ideas what we should take up next? The trigrams perhaps?
-rosada

Hi Rosada,

In Book III at the very end, the comments about this last hexagram notes: The Miscellaneous Notes (Tsa Kua) on the hexagrams which places hex 43 at the end.

As a binary counter, 5 Yang lines with just a binary 1 place Yin would equal 62. However, it makes a difference if the 1 place is the top line or the bottom line. The Chou Yi grows up from the bottom, but this earlier arrangement is counted from the 6th line Yang as 1.

There is an arrangement of the hexagrams in binary counter order (before the KWS) in which the number symbolism starts with zero (hex 2) and adds. The cover of H.Wilhelm's Change: Eight Lectures On the I Ching has this illustration in and 8 x8 square. The digits seem to add from the top so binary 1 is hex 23, binary 2 is hex 8 and it counts to KWS hex 1 as the 63rd binary number.

There is also a circular arrangement that is figure 2 in the middle of the book and the checkerboard square inscribed within that circle. And the hexagrams in the square just count in binary all the way to KWS hex 1 as 63 KWS. hex 1 is binary 63 the last hexagram in the checkerboard and before it is KWS hex43 which is binary number 62.

In the circular arrangement KWS hex 1 and hex 2 are across the circle from each other one at the top the other at the bottom of their respective semicircles so this binary counter marks out a sine wave or T'ai Chi pattern. One of the binary math whizzes can put in the binary numbers to make that clear.

The comments in the Misc. notes also indicate that even this binary counter use of the hexagrams is not at all what the modern computer folks use. Hex 2 is NOT zero (a meaningless abstraction in a philosophical universe of concrete numbers beginning with a unit magnitude). Hex 2 is NONE, and hex 1 in our KWS understanding is ALL. They are collectives in Chinese philosophy and thus the last number hexagram is KWS 43 that counts in binary to 62. That it is a number symbolism can be inferred by the look of hex 43, there are 5 Yang lines with only the last digit for 1 still open or Yin (the counting starts with the top line and ends with the bottom line, confusing, eh? [I lived in Toronto for a year or so]). Thus it represents "almost complete" but still with a bit of room for the final touches yet to go. How can KWS 1 as binary counter 63 develop into something else-- Who knows, its perfect and thus crystalline that can only shatter in the continuing flux of reality.
Aren't you glad you asked Rosada?

Hex 64.6 >> hex 40 which is the Hexagram of Deliverance or in terms of the set of 10 hexagrams starting with hex 31 monogamous love or courtship: Release or the regular marital relations that keep the family animated and Chinese society organized and functioning.

I like the idea of the trigrams next, that would be working through Book III and there are so many opinions upon the meaning of the trigrams in relation to their structure. It also could rather than copying out the text, just refer to the Wilhelm thus avoiding infringement issues and making owning a Wilhelm the requirement to join the discussion.

Frank
 
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fkegan

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Dichotomy isn't just circuit On/Off technology.

Hey, I wouldn't mind focusing on CLofting's EIC for a while. It would be a good opportunity for a hands-on approach to his system. As for my book, I can say that it is gestating and it is also "novel" and a departure from the known symbology. I'm spending lots of time taking copious notes while studying archaeological sources, not only Chinese, but from almost every other civilization site, from neo-lithic times to the Bronze Age. The farther one goes back in time, the more common the symbology of duality in artistic expression, and that's key. The reason for all that background gathering, and the time I'm using in it, other than because it is fun, is to justify some of my conclusions to current and serious Yixue students and researchers. They could be controversial for Yijing traditionalists, of which I am one, used to some 3000 years of a standard system of firm and broken lines. My contention is that the lines we know today are an evolution, a morphing of an older system, perhaps in an effort to purposely obscure the divination system. But, standing alone, and sans any historical background, it is a simple and elegant system, it tickles your brain in a different way the current hexagrams do, and more than a few would say "how come I didn't think of that before?" Alas, the beauty of it is that it is still the Yijing, as far as the text is concerned, albeit with a different scaffolding. Still not ready to share more details, I'm afraid, lest I prompt faster and entrepreneurial writers to take advantage of the idea and present it as their own. I've seen it done... Thanks for remembering though. :)

Hi Luis,

Exploring Elvis/CL EIC will help you note the difference between Chinese philosophy of gestalt and computer binary based on the simplistic notion of doing place-number math with just the math base system appropriate to technology built upon voltages just ON/OFF. Modern Chinese tend to speak of computer math as advanced, since computers are complicated technology, but it isn't at all. Philosophically it is confused.

The philosophy of dichotomy has no null content, it is just one set of principles in contrast to another. Yin is never zero.

The research for your book sounds fascinating. Apparently a lot of new research is just being published or just filtering down to general notice. There is the universal thinking of children under 5 that reflects Lao Tzu, perhaps why my daughter refers to the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu as the Chinese Dr. Seuss. (cf. What "Children Know and We Don't" in NY Review)

Also how the differences in Chinese and Western culture can be seen in the brain scans. Suggesting at least that Western numbers are names while Chinese numbers are symbols of gestalt relationships. cf. Newsweek of March 1st, 2010.

And the new research from the huge Temple complex in Turkey giving an alternative explanation of the origin of agriculture and animal domestication from nomads coming together for religious ceremonies, like archaic rock concerts. (also in that issue of Newsweek)

I also begin to see through the fog how I dissed you so. I didn't know you were working on a book and thus my remarks on my work could easily sound like I was throwing out your creative baby with the Legge and Brit occupation bath water. If you are working on a system to explain the hexagrams from historical principles, great. The KWS, I believe, was a quantum leap; however the evolution of prior symbolism would be far more an evolutionary process of general principles of gestalt and number symbols and that abstract concrete reality as the ideograms do with concepts.

Although the T'ai Chi Symbol is a late development in tombs the perspectives of the holistic, dualistic, and narrative (process) all find their expression in Chinese philosophy way back when. The holistic is only available through meditation. The narrative development begins with story telling and only late is blended into number symbolism. That leaves only duality that easily is represented in art through the notions of figure and ground of gestalt and the use of 2-D drawing to represent 4-D reality.

Email me, rant at me and I will try to assist you in fleshing out your theories, without stealing your thunder. I would suggest exploring the "novel" aspect, not just as new, but also as narrative and add the insights of myth to your mix. Marc E.Jones spoke of servants' kitchen gossip as the basis of much of legend and myth. The servants watched their masters do strange things like look at their books or papers with messages on them and have strong emotional reactions, thus arose the notion there were magic spells in magic books that would produce powerful results. Putting the concrete context together with the legend allows for a lot of explanation.

Email me and rant please.:rant::hug::):bows:

Frank
 

fkegan

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i thank you all so much for this wonderful thread...

to our ancestors and great children!

102_drinks.gif

:bows:

Hi Neegula,

Are those smileys drinking and carrying on? What about the bowing scholar? Hex 41.3 >> hex 26? Let's roast the pig of the ruling line hex 26.5 (moving toward the open field of hex 9 and on toward hex 13) at least and have a BBQ party for everyone!! I add a Charlie Brown smiley :) to represent Everyman and make two couples...hex 58

Frank
 
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neegula

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Hi Neegula,

Are those smileys drinking and carrying on? What about the bowing scholar? Hex 41.3 >> hex 26? Let's roast the pig of the ruling line hex 26.5 (moving toward the open field of hex 9 and on toward hex 13) at least and have a BBQ party for everyone!! I add a Charlie Brown smiley :) to represent Everyman and make two couples...hex 58

Frank
hi frank,
of course the bowing scholar is me before and while starting accepting bread in public... let's say :)it is very ok for me the BBQ -until i'm not the pig:rofl:
i was reading this thread until here, where i had a lot to learn about: i was sitting with you all in veeeery good company indeed.:hug:

may i ask: why are you talking about years for composing this thread? the date in posts speak about weeks ago...was it copied after a new board was done?
 

Trojina

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may i ask: why are you talking about years for composing this thread? the date in posts speak about weeks ago...was it copied after a new board was done?

Neegula if you look at the sticky at the top of Exploring Divination you will see a link to all the memorising threads..(.well heres the link http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3795) which Rosada started in 2006. We have gone through all 64 hexagrams in order since 2006...thats why people are talking of years. There is a thread like this for each hexagram.

If thats what you were asking
 
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fkegan

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Hi Negula and Trojan,

And now it is time to consider perhaps a new format. Going over the Wilhelm text year after year is quite fruitful. However, it also involves copying out the copyrighted material over and over again. With the more aggressive police action by Bollingen it is perhaps time to evade such scrutiny or punishment and change gears.

Book III of Wilhelm goes through each hexagram again, but focuses upon the commentary in terms of what is its basis in the trigrams and line positions and relationships. It would be a long text to copy out as these series have been; however a delightful source of discussion assuming each person involved has access to their own Wilhelm which is available used for cheap on Amazon.com and still exists online through the 'pirate' or Free websites not policed.

And this is the party after hexagram 64 not included in Trojan's link as the party after hex 30 was.
Frank
 
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Sparhawk

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Exploring Elvis/CL EIC will help you note the difference between Chinese philosophy of gestalt and computer binary based on the simplistic notion of doing place-number math with just the math base system appropriate to technology built upon voltages just ON/OFF. Modern Chinese tend to speak of computer math as advanced, since computers are complicated technology, but it isn't at all. Philosophically it is confused.
I won't speak for Chris; he can do that with abandon. I, however, believe you haven't read or understood his approach and/or the angle of his POV on the I Ching. For starters, his focus is not on dichotomies, although he integrates such concepts in his theories. His mantra for all of us of "being stuck in 10th Century B.C. mentality" should give you a clue. It took me a few years to realize that to understand Chris (well, at least a portion of it as I won't presume of understanding the whole of it... ) one needs to shed much of the exegesis and historical notions and take it in as something NEW. Prejudice based on what WE know of the I Ching would always be an unsurmountable obstacle to understand his work. I am a traditionalist and I'm not saying I accept his approach as a replacement of what I've learned about the Yijing over the years. I can, though, put his work in its own category and study it as a system that shares a common structure with the Yijing but is still its own entity.
The research for your book sounds fascinating. Apparently a lot of new research is just being published or just filtering down to general notice.
Indeed, it is. I'm having a lot of fun with it. The only drawback is that the more I read, the more I have to read. Not only for the research for the book but also because it invites the compulsion to keep on taking information in. I'm a library rat...
And the new research from the huge Temple complex in Turkey giving an alternative explanation of the origin of agriculture and animal domestication from nomads coming together for religious ceremonies, like archaic rock concerts. (also in that issue of Newsweek)
Oh, yes, I have added what's being learnt at Gobekli Tepe into my research. Great stuff that supports some of my ideas.
If you are working on a system to explain the hexagrams from historical principles, great. The KWS, I believe, was a quantum leap; however the evolution of prior symbolism would be far more an evolutionary process of general principles of gestalt and number symbols and that abstract concrete reality as the ideograms do with concepts.
Well, yes, it is a quantum leap in the sense that it is a purposely made order with an apparent lack of logic, other than the grouping in pairs and the observation of certain milestones placed in strategic places in the sequence... I believe Richard S. Cook has taken care of the math behind the order. He hasn't touched the meaning of it. But, as you and other researchers have noted (as in your Decades, and also L. Scott Davies, with a similar but not equal concept), meaning can be derived from the apparent chaos. In my system, for example, I can visualize "paths" going from a number of hexagrams to others, sometimes connecting a few more than the obvious pairs. Further, in some of the pairs there are no "paths" connecting them and they appear to act as "hinges" for the hexagrams on both sides of them. I can derive meaning from those and I believe the groupings of hexagrams were ordered so that those connecting paths could be glimpsed if one knows what we are looking at. This is why I've said that "my hexagrams" tickle the brain in different ways. For example, you can visualize pairs, not only in the known sequences, but also those obtained in readings, as ONE symbol. Furthermore, from that, I can tag an individual, compact symbol to each one of the 4096 sections of the Jiaoshi Yilin, something that classic has been missing, perhaps on purpose, since its inception. If a translation of it is ever completed it can be actually put in a book format with its own images. Heck, even the Chinese can use them with the original text.
Although the T'ai Chi Symbol is a late development in tombs the perspectives of the holistic, dualistic, and narrative (process) all find their expression in Chinese philosophy way back when.
Exactly.
The holistic is only available through meditation. The narrative development begins with story telling and only late is blended into number symbolism. That leaves only duality that easily is represented in art through the notions of figure and ground of gestalt and the use of 2-D drawing to represent 4-D reality.
Yes, indeed. And there are plenty of examples in ancient art expression, in China and elsewhere. Regarding ancient China, I contend that there was an implicit dualistic philosophy that was much older than the birth of the Zhouyi, that it was used in divination, of which we have records, and was expressed, very stylized, in art (jades, pottery and bronzes). Even though the Yin/Yang School of thought didn't officially started until Zuo Yan put it down on paper in the Warring States Period, that doesn't mean that a precise dualistic philosophy didn't exist before him and was used in divination. Personally, I don't agree with temporal cages only because we can put specific dates to the documentation of a philosophical thought. No philosophical thought, IMO, is created in a vacuum of preceding information and observation and, like in the case of the Yin/Yang School, a precedent can be traced back in time.
 

fkegan

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Hi Luis,

Yes, YES, YES I agree with everything YOU SAY, except that the KWS is chaotic. I believe that is Legge British prejudice (Ojala the Dowager Empress had a proper Minister of War and her army with their bows and arrows which were equal to British guns and Chinese rockets of the era better than British artillery won the Opium Wars, etc.).

Now I understand why you were so pissed, we are so close in our perspectives, but the smaller the dissonances the greater upset caused. That was what I learned from my Stars And Dice Book, the bitter arguments between astrologers expert in their own work over a point where they were both right, but dealing with different context, could only be resolved with the dot-patterns which they could both agree upon as the essence of what they were talking about and then see on that common ground their individual perspectives which they each recognized as independent and mutually beneficial.

I did not know you were writing a book. A bit of advice from the History of a friend of mine, Rusty. She was a brilliant Tarot expert with the P.C. Smith deck. Her power with a single card reading, and her courses in Tarot great. He started working on her book based upon her system. She worked all her life and died still unable to put the final draft together and let the publisher have her baby to send forth into the world. Remember you are just writing your first edition and others will follow with the response and reworking after yours is out and crying and cooing as an independent book-creature.

As to ole Chris Lofting. Yes, he says he is all new and only his work matters; however, he is a computer type with only the barest hold the science involved in his own work let alone the state of the art these days.

My background is in hard science and then history and philosophy of science and math and then I was introduced to the Yi by a classmate doing amazing things in those early days of computer science. I have read and UNDERSTOOD his work, and his references do not support his conclusions, his claims of cutting edge science are obsolete in the literature as it were back in 1969 when I was still working in the field from the Theoretical Biophysics perspective (my intended Ph.D. in those days).

I know the field from the hard science and history/philo of science end and his work is just not up to the level of the field in 1969 and far more has been done in math from the point of view of the brain function. I have another of the books somewhere on my bookshelf. Taking him seriously as a math scientist is an insult to the great work in neuroscience, semiotics, semantics, and number theory that is available today.

There is a book called From One To Zero at Amazon, 5 star rating
http://www.amazon.com/One-Zero-Universal-History-Numbers/dp/0140099190
which definitely needs to be part of your research if not already, that details how it was
a many millennial journey from number theory based upon 1 as fundamental unit to the notion of a number line with zero dividing positive and negative numbers.

Elvis/C. Lofting's use of zero/1 as his I Ching digits, is not new or anything but just plain ignorant. The Yi is based upon a symbolic unit number (like the dots on dice or in the Pythagorean eidos) and uses the digits 2 and 3 to build the hexagrams. Totally different world view and number philosophy. Like most of his work, he slips easily from I Ching into his own low level computer programming understanding as fixed ideas for his dogma. In either the philosophy of belief systems or math or Chinese philosophy his work is total crap!:duh:

Frank
 

Sparhawk

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Hi Luis,

Yes, YES, YES I agree with everything YOU SAY, except that the KWS is chaotic.

No, I was careful to use the qualifier "apparent" preceding both "lack of logic" and "chaos." I don't believe it lacks logic or that it is chaotic at all. It is that, prima facie, it can appear to be so to most of those that don't know better: a capricious ordering. Mathematically, I believe R.S. Cook found the combinatorial key to the order. But the reason for the order is not just a mathematical curiosity. It is the combination of the order and the text that completes the real meaning of it. Something that can, for example, be explored in those "paths" and "hinges" I mentioned earlier.

I did not know you were writing a book. A bit of advice from the History of a friend of mine, Rusty. She was a brilliant Tarot expert with the P.C. Smith deck. Her power with a single card reading, and her courses in Tarot great. He started working on her book based upon her system. She worked all her life and died still unable to put the final draft together and let the publisher have her baby to send forth into the world. Remember you are just writing your first edition and others will follow with the response and reworking after yours is out and crying and cooing as an independent book-creature.

Frank, believe me, what you are saying isn't new to me and is present in my mind every waking hour; I take that advise to heart and the prospect of it is what scares the crap out of me. Even when I ask for some background help from some key fellow students and friends I am afraid my questions can provide clues that would prompt them to find the origin of my system and follow my path and get ahead of me in publishing it. The good thing is that I have placed some documentation in strategic places that bear witness that that system of mine is over 20 years old and indeed belongs to me.
 

pocossin

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sparhawk said:
Even when I ask for some background help from some key fellow students and friends I am afraid my questions can provide clues that would prompt them to find the origin of my system and follow my path and get ahead of me in publishing it. The good thing is that I have placed some documentation in strategic places that bear witness that that system of mine is over 20 years old and indeed belongs to me.

Luis, this is tantalizing. Could you say-- not what your system is -- but what it does? Does it explain the KWS? Does it explain the appended text -- why a particular image is a associated with a particular line? Or is it a general approach to contemplative thought?

Tom
 

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In my system, for example, I can visualize "paths" going from a number of hexagrams to others, sometimes connecting a few more than the obvious pairs. Further, in some of the pairs there are no "paths" connecting them and they appear to act as "hinges" for the hexagrams on both sides of them. I can derive meaning from those and I believe the groupings of hexagrams were ordered so that those connecting paths could be glimpsed if one knows what we are looking at. This is why I've said that "my hexagrams" tickle the brain in different ways. For example, you can visualize pairs, not only in the known sequences, but also those obtained in readings, as ONE symbol. Furthermore, from that, I can tag an individual, compact symbol to each one of the 4096 sections of the Jiaoshi Yilin, something that classic has been missing, perhaps on purpose, since its inception. If a translation of it is ever completed it can be actually put in a book format with its own images. Heck, even the Chinese can use them with the original text.
OK, now I'm intrigued - and tantalised. When can I get my hands on this?
 

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Yeah, Luis, how about making your manuscript the next group study?
Rosada
 

Sparhawk

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Luis, this is tantalizing. Could you say-- not what your system is -- but what it does? Does it explain the KWS? Does it explain the appended text -- why a particular image is a associated with a particular line? Or is it a general approach to contemplative thought?

Tom

Hi Tom,

Do to its nature, much can be made of the KWS. IMO, there are two ways to see it: 1) as a mathematical construct; 2) as an intertextuality narrative sequence. As I've mentioned earlier, I believe the mathematical key to the sequence has been found by Richard S. Cook, which in and by itself is a great achievement that took him a phone size book to render in a comprehensive way. Math, like they say, is the language of the Universe; grant enough time and knowledge to a researcher and they will come up with a "Chaos Theory" and more... However, the KWS isn't just a mathematical curiosity; it is a compound of intrinsic and mostly conventional symbology (I say "conventional" because there are accepted meanings for trigrams/hexagrams/yin/yang that have come down to us from antiquity, based on observation and visualization and a certain arbitrariness thrown in for good measure), intertextuality and a given sequence marrying both symbology and meaning in a cohesive narrative. Does my system "explain the appended text -- why a particular image is a associated with a particular line"? I believe it can provide a key to it, yes. Meaning can be derived from the different "paths," "hinges" and "symmetries" that are found in the KWS, as seen thru the glass of my system. I am biased, of course, but at least I do see it. That others will see it, well, that remains to be seen. (I see that all that mentioning of seeing is perhaps redundant... :D)

My system is just a different way to visualize the symbols of the Yijing. I do away with the received hexagrams for the sake of finding, I believe, what's hidden behind the known symbology. I have come to believe that the received convention for the symbolic representation of what we know as "Yin and Yang" is an obfuscation of an older, simpler system. Or, perhaps, the representation of Yin as a broken line and Yang as an undivided line is a natural evolution. Purposely obfuscation or natural evolution is beside the point that a more ancient visualization of duality existed, and, IMO, was used for divination. The clues are everywhere in archaeological findings. They are, perhaps, too obvious to be noticed if one doesn't know what to look for.

Funny thing is that I came upon my "replacement system" first, some 20 years ago, by just playing around with a way to short-hand the hexagrams and shelved it. What prompted me to study all this background was that, a few years ago, I started using it again and once I applied it to the Fuxi sequence (or Shao Yong's, if you wish to tag it to him), I was blown away: the linear sequence is a perfectly symmetrical picture. I told myself: "Self, that can't be a pretty coincidence and is doubtful that some Xia or Shang scribe wasn't playing with this stuff already, 3500 years ago..." I am still kicking myself for not doing that way back then... A consolation is that a lot of new material and conclusions, supporting my thoughts, have come to light in those years, that wasn't available then. Hence my time studying all the material I can get my hands on. If I wished, I could present it as is, that is, publish a Yijing book replacing the known hexagrams with mine and six months from there, I can picture the first T-shirts and tattoos on people (quite literally, indeed). But I want to provide a "why," a good reason for the replacement.

Alas, It is still the Yijing. The text is the same. The meaning of the hexagrams and trigrams would be the same. It will not replace what the Yijing is; it hasn't for me. It will simply "add" a visual tool for the interpretation of them in readings and exegetical studies.
 

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Frank, believe me, what you are saying isn't new to me and is present in my mind every waking hour; I take that advise to heart and the prospect of it is what scares the crap out of me. Even when I ask for some background help from some key fellow students and friends I am afraid my questions can provide clues that would prompt them to find the origin of my system and follow my path and get ahead of me in publishing it. The good thing is that I have placed some documentation in strategic places that bear witness that that system of mine is over 20 years old and indeed belongs to me.

Hi Luis,

I have a peace offering for you to solve this problem of yours. What you need is official recognition so that it would be obvious to the general public that anyone else claiming to publish along your line of work was a thief. All that requires is a bit of celebrity, that means that you show a publisher that promoting you and your work would be profitable to them.

In the Google traffic statistics, they publish how many folks have put what keywords into the Search Box. The key word I Ching has the most. Anything using yijing has only a few. In the vast space between the two is the Keyword "Vaginal I Ching" this is mostly a typo by those suffering vaginal itching, hitting the space bar instead of the 't' so it is omitted and a Virgin territory (hex 26) is opened up for exploitation.

Remember Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (27 January 1832 – 14 January 1898), better known by the pseudonym Lewis Carroll, a distinguished mathematician who also wrote popular stories. Note that the great astronomer Kepler supplemented his meager salary as court astronomer by interpreting horoscopes for the people. Freud was considered a pornographer whose work could not be mentioned in polite company until one of his patients bribed a minister to get Sigmund an official title of medical recognition.

You have a long history of silly, sexy posts here on Clarity. Simply make a post or write an article of Sparhawk's gift to the world, the revelation of the deepest, darkest secrets of the Classic Book of Changes. Divide that work into two canons, the upper one The Vaginal I Ching which already has a niche in Google Search that no one is now serving. The lower one could be like the X for Dummies or the Complete Idiot's Guide to X, but your own, not part of another franchise. This could be The Total Prick's Guide to Scoring Big with the Vaginal I Ching.

For the scholar Luis, it would be an outreach mission to introduce the Chou I Ching to an entirely new audience. For a publisher it is a certain best seller with built in controversy of great passion and interest by both feminists and football couch potatoes. The market is huge! Any respectable publisher would salivate at the publicity they raise just announcing that they have a development deal in the works with you, Hollywood will want to option the title for a movie. All that before you produce more than a single page of outline. The book can guarantee enough units of sale for the first edition draft to justify a cash advance and offers for the involvement of editors and ghost writers to flesh out the manuscript.

If you need any assistance, it was the custom of my parents intellectual property law practice to give their clients whatever inventions or ideas they came up with working with them. Back in the day, I considered writing a beginning chemistry text from the perspective of the atoms as sexual beings with their bonding as orifices for their sexual combination and positions. The Noble gases are celibate, the alkali metals are sexual predators like the halogens, Carbon is the King of the pansexual Orgy (the reason all life is organic chemistry, built upon these wild Bacchanals), etc.

Remember, in my I Ching Primer I speak of the lines of the hexagrams and trigrams as the X-Ray films of them as Mark Symbol the repertory actor. That makes each hexagram a person, whose flesh and skin and costume can be filled in from the X-Ray, the way an artist captures mostly the gesture of the skeleton position of his model and puts the rest in as attractive details of body, costume and action.

As a graduate of a Rio de la Plata region high school you have background in the interests of the Total Prick in terms of relating to women.

Also, in my Primer, I speak of the oracle that forms in the open space between the Yin lines of hex 2 as Oracle matrix as the birth canal of the Yi. That in technical terms is Vaginal I Ching.

You have my I Ching Primer, your work would be your own evolution of those ideas as is the justification and intent of the Copyright Law in the U.S. Constitution. The grant of monopoly over who can print copies of your work, in exchange for the free access to ideas and text to use as the background (Yin) of other authors publications of their developed or better work. :bows: :)

Frank
 

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