Is the "lord in the narrow street" of H 38.2 and the "hidden lord" of H 55.4 similar, i.e., kind of or sometimes the same kind of a thing?

It's exactly the same Chinese character, in both cases:

主 zhǔ : to own; to host; master; lord; primary

Or do you mean, what is meant by 'lord'?

Hi, Diamanda and Jumpingmouse:

About the Lord of 38.2 can see the literal translation Here:


主 zhu3: leader / chief / master / lord / main / owner / host / hostess /

Richard Sears' Chinese Etymology page says:

zhu3
a master / a leader / a chief / a host / Jesus Christ / God / Lord / to officiate at / to preside over / to take charge of / main / chief / primary / principal

Primitive pictograph 主. Modified wood 木, a torch with a light 灯心. Later meaning master.

Seal Character S03652
​

Link: http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=主

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Sometime I've translated it as TO LEAD / LEADING / LEADER , even HOSTESS.

All the best,

Charly

Thanks for the link and info Charly.

What do you think about 夷 主 of line 55.4?

Tuck Chang says that the combination means "夷 yi2 主zhu3 literally means a chief who possesses equal status and lives near the southern border". Similarly, in two other translations, this is translated as "a prince of equal rank" and "his equal partner".

Various other translators translate yi2 separately from zhu3, as: hidden, hiding, safe, or placid.

On this site, yi2 is translated as a barbarian (person with bow), and on the Richard Sears website all the above meanings are included, plus some extra ones of killing, executing, and other such notions.

Perhaps all this has already been covered on some thread, but right now I can't find anything.
What's your take on this?

diamanda said:

Thanks for the link and info Charly.

What do you think about 夷 主 of line 55.4?

Tuck Chang says that the combination means "夷 yi2 主zhu3 literally means a chief who possesses equal status and lives near the southern border". Similarly, in two other translations, this is translated as "a prince of equal rank" and "his equal partner".

Various other translators translate yi2 separately from zhu3, as: hidden, hiding, safe, or placid.

On this site, yi2 is translated as a barbarian (person with bow), and on the Richard Sears website all the above meanings are included, plus some extra ones of killing, executing, and other such notions.

Perhaps all this has already been covered on some thread, but right now I can't find anything.
What's your take on this?

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Dear Diamanda:

I'm going out until january 15 with no access to Internet.

I will give you now only a quick answer. Later I will post more documented reflexions.

As far as now I remember, the EQUAL STATUS was applied to 55.1 (maybe I'm wrong):


Maybe speaking of the GUIDANCE that we need, maybe speaking of the PREDESTINED LOVE.

Yu4 meeting has a definite flavor of LOVE MEETING.

Zhu3 leader can also be translated as HOSTESS with a clear sexual connotation but maybe related with the ancient custom of HOSPITALITY.

I believe that the end of the line meant that the meeting was not formal marriage but something that under some points of view could seem a little disreputable: EVEN TEN DAYS (OR YEARS) NO WRONG. TO GO (TO PROCEED SO) IS WORTHY.

About 55.4 I used to translate so:


This is said at the end of the line, that begins describing certain conditions of BLACK OUT.

It's exactly the begining of 55.2 that ends sayig: PROCEEDING SO WILL OBTAIN SUSPICION AND ENVY and THERE WILL BE A CAPTURE SHOWING ONE'S FEELINGS (or looking sincere) WHICH WILL BE LUCKY.

Written stories of sincere love used to end badly, always provoke suspicion and envy, but an unclear text for divination could maybe allowed itself to get rid of prejudices.

H.55 is, I believe, among many other things, the story of an EXUBERANT LOVE IN THE DARKNESS, helped by the divine forces of the nature.

(TO BE CONTINUED)

If you read the received text carefully maybe you would get the same feeling.


All the best,


Charly

P.D.:

Of course, WILD HOSTESS, can be a border matrilocal princess marrying with a travelling low rank young man, like happens in folk stories surely with some hidden historical background. Or even something else that didn't fit the forms of traditional chinese arranged marriage.

Ch.

It’s not necessarily a lord, just someone in a higher position or with a higher authority

in 38.2, zhu is someone who is your social or political superior seen doing the same apparently questionable thing as you are. It excuses the behavior as a necessary expedient.

in 55.4 zhu seems to be an historical reference to the leader in the midst of an opposition encampment, upon whom one is spying.

Zhou appears twice in H.55

I believe that a literal translation of H.55 where zhou occurs twice can be of interest for its multiple meanings.

Meanwhile I put something about it, see a resonance in this drawing by Matisse:
Flowers and sprouts in a vessel, like the name of H.55

Maybe H.55 is also about LOVE!

Something about H.55, see here:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/frie...exagram-55-Feng-Abundance&p=194425#post194425
(to be continued)

Charly

That looks like a grave stone to me

charly said:

H.55 is, I believe, among many other things, the story of an EXUBERANT LOVE IN THE DARKNESS, helped by the divine forces of the nature.
If you read the received text carefully maybe you would get the same feeling.

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I definitely not only get the same feeling, but I’ve seen line 55.4 (and not only this line of 55), in practice, talking about 'love affairs', especially hidden and 'unofficial' ones.

bradford said:

It’s not necessarily a lord, just someone in a higher position or with a higher authority
in 38.2, zhu is someone who is your social or political superior seen doing the same apparently questionable thing as you are. It excuses the behavior as a necessary expedient.

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Or to put it another way, ‘lord’ is someone who has the upper hand. About 38.2, I never thought of the notion of “doing the same questionable thing as you are”, great food for thought.

Trojina said:

That looks like a grave stone to me

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If it’s a gravestone, then that makes it even more apt for 55. “Be not sad”. I’ve seen 55 unchanging turn up way too many times when something ends (especially relationships).

Trojina said:

That looks like a grave stone to me

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Hi Tojina:

We projet what we have in our mind, nobody's perfect, everybody behaves so.

In my case I project a LOVE STORY, a story between somebody called Myself and a beloved called Marie. Engraved in the drawn vessel is the french inscription «J'aime Marie», «I love Maria». Maybe the subject was Charles de Orleans, but that's another story.

Matisse had in his mind many love stories while engraving the lithographes for illustrating his «Florilége», as you can see googlig for it. Or looking here (I warned: some gravures are almost obscene):


I believe to remember that the engraved stones were discarded after printing the books. They have a short life. Maybe thats a good reason for seeing gravestones, maybe not.

But it fits with H.55 that is about how life is f_cking short although we must not worry for it.

See H.55 FENG statement in chinese received text, pinjin and an almost literal translation:


There are more than one polemic wit this translation, the first: LOVE.

豐FENG1 in Sears' Chinese Etymology means: abundant / luxuriant / copious / fruitful / plentiful / plenty / thick / big / a crop / a harvest / a Chinese family name.

Following another authors it was also the name of the Zhou capital when attacking Shang, I believe that was even the name of a sacrifice (written with another character 封 , Like Kang Zhu Feng, younger brother of king Wu). Why to connect it with LOVE?

Coming back with sears, see a compound of EXUBERANT + COLOR (SEX):
艷 YAN4 / plump / voluptuous / gorgeous / colorful / gaudy / anything pertaining to love, as a love story, love song, etc. / amorous / a beauty / radiant / to admire or envy. Being 豐 the protograph, it must have the same sense before adding the color/sex component at the right.

Second polemic: kings don't borrow anything.

Being that they owned all, they don't borrow, they take things that always were owned by them.
Kerson Huang tried to manage the problem translating LEND, of course, kings never give if not temporarily, but tha's another story.

In Zhuang Zi Perfect Happiness there is, I believe, the key for H.55 use of 假JIa:

...To live is to BORROW... life and death are day and night, you and I came to watch the process of change...

... Among the dead there are no rulers above, no subjects below... our springs and autumns are as endless as heaven ad earth. A king facing south in his throne could have no more happiness than this...

Zhuang Zi: Complete Works.
Translation by Burton Watson, page 193
Available at Google Books:
https://books.google.com.ar/books?i...KAhWJKx4KHTD0AZ8Q6AEIFTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Third: «BE LIKE THE SUN AT MIDDAY» true and beautiful, but not in the received text!

Enough for today.
(to be continued)

Yours,

Charly

Dear Diamanda:

Going by parts:

diamanda said:

I definitely not only get the same feeling, but I’ve seen line 55.4 (and not only this line of 55), in practice, talking about 'love affairs', especially hidden and 'unofficial' ones.

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I'm pleased that you can see LOVE even under strange appearances. Maybe 主 zhu is mainly translated as MASTER, somebody that provides GUIDANCE, maybe a LEADER but hardly a RULER.

主 zhu3: leader / chief / master / lord / main / owner / host / husband / partner / guidance

It looks like part of an asimetric relation, like husband and wife, ruler and subject, and almost always the first takes the best part. But in 55.1 there is a key that makes equal the worth of both parts.

Did you find it? I will tell you my opinion assap.

Or to put it another way, ‘lord’ is someone who has the upper hand. About 38.2, I never thought of the notion of “doing the same questionable thing as you are”, great food for thought.

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I believe that Brad is imagining us like PUPILS seeing our TEACHER in the narrow street of a red light district.

What were we, and him, looking for?

Maybe only CARNAL COMMERCE. Masters are like us and nobody's perfect. The good is that both share the same human nature. The bad is the poor role given to women.

But even in the narrow street of illegal intercourse can find LOVE. But that's another story...

More about my point of view of narrow street, here:

If it’s a gravestone, then that makes it even more apt for 55. “Be not sad”. I’ve seen 55 unchanging turn up way too many times when something ends (especially relationships).

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Gravestones often speak of LOVE for lost relatives. LOST LOVE is the main theme of much poetry and maybe of the last part of 55.6, the last word of which is UNFORTUNATE (that I prefer to translate HORRIBLE!). But I believe that even 55.6 is an open ended line.

Difference of words: while GRAVESTONE is weighty and oppressive LOVE is an enhancing word.

(To be continued)

All the best,


Charly

豐亨王假之
feng1 heng1 wang2 jia3 zhi1
EXUBERANT FEAST KINGS BORROW IT.
All is temporary, even kings have their exuberant celebrations borrowed.
Nothing lasts forever.

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This is great, thanks Charly. I never noticed that there's a character there which also means 'borrowing'. That makes the whole transitoriness notion very clear. 55 is one of the strangest hexagrams. There is so much abundance, the cup is completely full, and yet there is sadness (otherwise there would be no need to advise "don't be sad").

I find it also very interesting that when 55 is intact (no changing lines), it speaks about a king (王).
Then, once lines start changing, it then speaks not of a king, but just a leader/master (主).
Amazing also how these two characters are so similar to each other.

But in 55.1 there is a key that makes equal the worth of both parts.
Did you find it? I will tell you my opinion assap.

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No, you got me there. Can't find it! What is it?

diamanda said:

This is great, thanks Charly. I never noticed that there's a character there which also means 'borrowing'. That makes the whole transitoriness notion very clear. 55 is one of the strangest hexagrams. There is so much abundance, the cup is completely full, and yet there is sadness (otherwise there would be no need to advise "don't be sad").

I find it also very interesting that when 55 is intact (no changing lines), it speaks about a king (王).
Then, once lines start changing, it then speaks not of a king, but just a leader/master (主).
Amazing also how these two characters are so similar to each other.
...

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Dear Diamanda:

The message of H.55 UC is already a commonplace in wisdom literature: the vanity of the royal power, the uselessness of worrying for tomorrow and the advice to focus here and now.

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin ... even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself...

Mattew 6.25 KJV

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It's not a projection in the chinese early past. Something like it is said in the ZHUAG ZI and it uses se same character with the common sense of BORROWED.

Think all in the context of HEAVEN'S MANDATE which involves the notion of PEOPLE'S SOVEREIGHNITY, at least in embryo. In the early Zhou ideology the Heaven's Mandate was temporary (the meaning of jia3) if not deserved it passes to another dynasty.

The modern characters for 王wang =KING and 主zhu (leader) have similar shapes but the ancient characters depicted different things an AXE (symbol of the power of force) and a LAMP (symbol of clarity and guidance).

Bone characters for 王 and 主
​

From Rick Sears' Chinese Etymology

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=王
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=主

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H.55 ends saying something like «SUITABLE THE MIDDAY». I wonder SUITABLE for what? Of course, for ENJOYING THINGS USUALLY ENJOYED IN THE DARKNESS OF NIGHT!

Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9.9 KJV

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No projection here. See the Book of Songs (Waley's translation);

THE LADY: The cock has crowed, it is full daylight.
THE LOVER: It was not the cock that crowed, it was the buzzing of those green flies...

Book of Songs by Arthur Waley
Available at Google Books

See here: https://books.google.com.ar/books?i...TAB#v=snippet&q="The cock has crowed"&f=false

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Don't you believe so?

Yours,

Charly

charly said:

... It's not a projection in the chinese early past. Something like it is said in the ZHUAG ZI and it uses se same character with the common sense of BORROWED.
...

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Here is the Zhuang Zi chinese quote and Legge's translation:

生者，假借也；假之而生生者，塵垢也。死生為晝夜。且吾與子觀化而化及我，我又何惡焉？


Life is a borrowed thing. The living frame thus borrowed is but so much dust. Life and death are like day and night. And you and I were looking at (the graves of) those who have undergone their change. If my change is coming to me, why should I dislike it?'

From: 《至樂 - Perfect Enjoyment》
Source: Chinese Text Project
Link: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/perfect-enjoyment?searchu=假

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Quoting the Skull:

「死，無君於上，無臣於下，亦無四時之事，從然以天地為春秋，雖南面王樂，不能過也。」

'In death there are not (the distinctions of) ruler above and minister below. There are none of the phenomena of the four seasons. Tranquil and at ease, our years are those of heaven and earth. No king in his court has greater enjoyment than we have.'

From: 《至樂 - Perfect Enjoyment》
Source: Chinese Text Project
Link: http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/perfect-enjoyment?searchu=夜半，髑髏見夢曰

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The topics of life's vanity and the end of royal prerogatives.

Ch.

True or False?


Do you recognize the third character in the title?


Ch.

Had an experience with 38.2 today.
Did a cast before going to the shop 'Price is rather steep, should I buy more of these apples?' 38.2.6 → 51
Didn't quite get what Yi was saying, maybe that I had enough of them already (bought them yesterday and quite liked them) and that something better will come up in a few days?.

Went to the shop and while I was picking the apples two young guys approached me and asked to buy them some alcohol (it's friday afternoon ), apparently they were under-aged [18y is the limit in Russia], although they looked old enough to me, maybe they forgot their passport?

I agreed and ended up with a bonus [cash] for my services. They overestimated the sum and although I offered to return the difference they declined.

I see lord as more of a guide character, someone who takes the initiative and offers you direction, not necessarily being superior in any way.

My experience of a 38.2 reading is similar to the one ashteroid relates as the "lord" as "more of a guide character... not necessarily being superior in any way."

In my experience I considered that the "guide" was a hidden part of myself --- an appropriate "ruler" for me that sometimes seems to be sabotaging me if I am not looking at the situation properly.