Clarity,
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I just read an article making the case that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax
I want to ask the I Ching about this but am unsure what would be the best way to ask. Suggestions?
Neither of you know anything about my beliefs or my situation.
Wales has just been locked down, a full lockdown for several weeks. Do you think that is a hoax ? I'd like to know what you think ?
Whatever, I think Trojina's suggestion I ask "What kind of people believe this?" is a good one.
Thank you.
@rosada, I think that's a good question and a good reading. Or why do people believe this? You know your partner better than I do, but I presume he's not stupid. And I know a fair few other people, some of them quite bright, or at least well educated, who also believe all sorts of conspiracy theories like this. I don't think it really is about intelligence, it's about trust.I ... asked "What kind of people believe this?" I got a 43.1.3-47 which says to me "People who may be alone in their struggle (47) and may not have all the facts (43.1) but who are very sincere in their beliefs to the point that they feel called upon to speak out (43.3). I thought that a very appropriate answer as it gives me the compassion not to immediately label them as "dangerous, irresponsible or ignorant."
I think that's a good question and a good reading. Or why do people believe this? You know your partner better than I do, but I presume he's not stupid.
I can see why some people do have this lack of trust and it's very sad. If you have governments, presidents, global agencies lying to you about all sorts of things, it's very hard to be convinced when other big institutions are actually telling the truth. And that's the 21st century for you. Too many people crying wolf.
First of all, the people calling COVID-19 a hoax here aren't saying it doesn't exist or that the life threatening effects aren't real. Rather it seems they are saying the numbers are inflated, that not all the deaths attributed to COVID-19 are due to to the illness, that hospitals reporting a death is due to COVID-19 get large government payments when reporting a death is from COVID-19 where they would only get about a tenth that amount if the death is reported from being from heart disease or some other cause, and that Bill Gates who has been highly praised for his support of vaccines has actually caused thousands of deaths in past years in countries like India where his untested vaccines caused great harm. So when an article talks about the idea that COVID-19 is a hoax it is not saying the disease does not exist rather it is floating the idea that the response has been politically motivated.
So when an article talks about the idea that COVID-19 is a hoax it is not saying the disease does not exist rather it is floating the idea that the response has been politically motivated.
I agree that Yi might well help when you have to maintain a relationship with someone who's been taken in. The question of why people believe it, why they want to believe it, is interesting. (47 looks to me like a state of isolationism and mistrust.) 'How am I to live with this (and not have it damage our relationship)?' is another good one.
You ask why I read such stuff. Actually I don't. It makes no difference to me whether this bug is real or not. I just wear my mask and go on about life. However, my partner and several of his friends are consumed by this hoax theory and it is very depressing for me to have to hear the latest Every. Single. Day.
People don't have to, because it's to the point where they can see it in their own thermometers.People always say that the evidence for, say, global warming is overwhelming. But what they really mean is they trust the scientists and scientific organizations that tell them that. They actually haven't gone through all the data and decided for themselves.
Yaaaaaa. Where I live, the "social security" system for informal workers usually consists of workers who lose their jobs going back to their villages and hunkering down and growing subsistence crops. Jakarta's population expands and contracts with the economy. Except this time, there were road blocks and travel restrictions to prevent them from going anywhere (Not very effective ones, but still). You can definitely see why unemployed workers who usually fed their children and paid their rent on the income they earned that day might find it tempting to believe in a hoax. I get a bit sad when people like that are described as idiots or gullible fools.Yes, that's what I mean, and I can't quite blame them. What's worse, social support won't help if your company ends up going out of business entirely.
I could see (theoretically) some political incentive to inflate Covid deaths, because - theoretically - you know, if we caused all this massive disruption for relatively nothing, it wouldn't go over well. The fewer deaths there are, the more it feeds the school of thought that lots of people also die from xyz and we don't shut down the whole world for it. I can forgive people who weigh catching Covid on the one hand with having their life destroyed on the other, and decide they'd rather take their chances.
It also doesn't help one bit that Trump was one of those with an exceedingly mild case, despite being in a high-risk group. I had some shameful wishes that he'd get sick enough to actually scare him
People don't have to, because it's to the point where they can see it in their own thermometers.
Mark Twain once said something like "Nothing is harder than to get someone to believe something if their livelihood depends on not believing it." People tend to adjust their beliefs to meet their needs. Where I live, almost everyone who has a job where they can where they can work at home or sufficient savings or a generous pension tends to believe that the covid threat is real and that measures like lockdowns are required. Daily workers who aren't eligible for any form of social support aren't so convinced
You can definitely see why unemployed workers who usually fed their children and paid their rent on the income they earned that day might find it tempting to believe in a hoax. I get a bit sad when people like that are described as idiots or gullible fools.
Agreed. *I* don't believe it's a hoax.Why would the government want to shut the country down if it were not for good reason ?
I think actually Rosada said it's the hospitals' incentive, not the government.Surprised no one has yet been able to tell me what the financial incentive would be for inflating the number of deaths from Covid ? Rosada said they inflated it to make money but how does the government having to pay more to hospitals make more money ? Be interesting to find out Mr Rosada's reasoning.
But again, I personally don't believe there could be enough mis-reporting to make a difference. If hospitals tried to get the people who work there to fabricate a noticeable percentage of death certificates, someone would say something eventually. Secrets like that are impossible to keep.I just read an article making the case that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax - mainly arguing that the majority of deaths are people who have multiple other issues, doctors and hospitals have been financially incentivized to sign death certificates saying the patient died from the virus when the real cause of death might be something else entirely
I don't believe that, either, for the same reasons. I don't think a whole cadre of medical professionals would do such a thing. One doctor, maybe, but the more people who are involved the more likely someone won't go along. I also think faking a diagnosis entirely is different from spinning it afterwards. "Let's make believe I have Covid!" (if the idea would have come from Trump) vs. "Let's not tell the press every detail."He probably didn't have it at all.
Exactly.Just by that act alone he's probably caused hundreds of deaths as some will follow his lead, refusing to wear masks and so endangering the lives of others.
Yes, this drives me nuts. I read something where in 1918 in the U.S. there were people who resisted wearing masks, but it was because they found it annoying, not to make a freaking political statement. Whatever is wrong with us, I'm beyond tired of it.There was no big thing about 'it's our right to do what we want/not wear masks' as there was in the US.
Yes, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)But apart from such people there are plenty of perfectly comfortable well off idiots, irresponsible well off stupid idiots who post online about Covid as a hoax.
es, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to make darn sure all of this is really necessary.
I mean, even people whose personal economies aren't affected at all, people with jobs that carry on just as well in lockdown as not, it's still really alarming to watch things crumble around you. Even well-insulated gazillionaires are probably concerned that the country is spending trillions of dollars on it.
I guess I can partly see their point without subscribing to it myself.
You don't need the I Ching to evaluate the ideas - in fact I'm inclined to agree that using it to 'evaluate' them (in public) would be irresponsible. You'd be lending credence to dubious ideas. Heaven help us if people start thinking the I Ching says wearing masks is all a conspiracy, or whatever. We're in enough trouble. (And with a virus that spreads exponentially, you don't know how much harm you could do by inadvertently persuading one person that this stuff is credible.)
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to make darn sure all of this is really necessary.
Yes, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)
I mean, even people whose personal economies aren't affected at all, people with jobs that carry on just as well in lockdown as not, it's still really alarming to watch things crumble around you. Even well-insulated gazillionaires are probably concerned that the country is spending trillions of dollars on it.
I guess I can partly see their point without subscribing to it myself.
That makes a maddening amount of intuitive sense, .Cornell University analyzed millions of articles and found that in the u.s,
the current president was the source of 38% of the covid misinformation here.
Yes. There is a difference between raising concerns about what's necessary, and spreading craziness. "This is a hoax!" isn't the same as "Are we over-reacting?"That really doesn't justify spreading misinformation that can kill people.
Of course not. Post away.We have private blogs in Change Circle to use. (Unless Hilary meant she'd rather we don't discuss it at all, in any forum, in which case I can delete it.)
I think it's also worth trying to understand - with or without help from Yi - how human belief works, why we are drawn to conspiracy theories, and so on.
I notice some people here are quite ready to believe that a highly respected medical establishment would be willing to conspire with the President to support fake claims that he had covid. And that's the way it starts ...
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).