Clarity,
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Wilhelm goes with South-West in 38, and it's the right direction to go in. He explains that with reference to the trigram K'un, in the South-West. But don't go in the direction of the North-East, in the direction of Gen, the mountain. A time for accepting and submitting, not standing resolute.
But some translations, I think @hilary's and a few others, go with "South and West," which is completely different. Is it ambiguous in the original?
I was just going to add that John Blofeld also got an and between. But as seen in the received version there is no andAs far as I know, it can be read either way. Rutt, Field, Schilling and Minford separate them into cardinal directions - south and west, east and north. That gives you kan in the north, and IMO also points forward and back to 38 and 49. With no place to go, no home to go to, go back towards 38 (which is not 37); with somewhere to go, head out early for the longer trek towards 49.
He (Wilhelm) explains that with reference to the trigram K'un (Earth), in the South-West. But don't go in the direction of the North-East, in the direction of Gen, (Mountain).
But some translations, ... go with "South and West," which is completely different. Is it ambiguous in the original?
Yes - presumably in the same circumstances that they still sometimes do nowadays: when it makes sense in context of the question. 'What about moving to X?' and so on.I can imagine that these may have originally indicated actual directions to go in or not go in.
* East: the directon of the Shang homeland, where you are looking towards a past kingdom and an old way of seeing / being.
Of course my explainations have some conflicts:
... referring to the Houtian Bagua Circle, East is good & positive: the direction of Spring, what is new, and welcomeing the new;
Yes, I agree, and I think this corresponds with my sense of Thunder, Spring being a good thing, about new beginnings ....I don't think this is a conflict. If you head off (East) into the Shang homeland, you may well be following your Mandate ....
Ya, no conflict between the "actual directions to go" and the latter heaven arrangement. I can imagine the bagua associations with the directions were based on perceptions of what lay in the different directions on the ground, nothing too ethereal.I don't think this is a conflict. If you head off into the Shang homeland, you may well be following your Mandate, going with the army that will overthrow the Shang and usher in the new dynasty. All a thoroughly Thunder-ish thing to do.
Indeed. For whatever reason, the Yi actually never says that going east and north is a good idea.The 'conflict' I'm seeing is betwen this 'positive' view of going East and Hex. 39''s "unfavorable East (and North)".
- and also that he got nan2 (and, to) + bei3 (and, to) included in the text. Whether this is from another text
No, I've counted: 13 signs on the Biroccosite and 13 signs used by B.H. (Chinese signs) and I see that B.H. got the and, to in parenthesis. So it's clear now that B.H. worked with the same text as is to be found on Birocco's homepage. Thanks for leading my attention toward this.My sense is the translation is (or is close to):
worthwhile / west / south
not / worthwhile / east / north
The 'connecting' words - and, or - are added to make the translation 'more readable' (or understandable?) in English. The decision by different translators to use 'and' or 'or' (or perhaps neither) is at the heart of this thread; Hatcher's translation is one possibility, but not necessarily the correct one.
Hatcher's notes about these directions:
" ... Northeast and Southwest were the relative centers or capitals of the Shang and Zhou dynasties respectively, at the time the mandate changed hands. Southwest was friendlier ground, a more 'secure and certain good fortune,' or a path of least resistance. The northeast was within the new domain and was therefore a permissible direction, but here it is seen as more challenging than is currently necessary."
I appreciate his explanation here, however it still doesn't mean that this is what was intended by the Yi's authors.
I don't think he got this from Biroco's (Steve Marshall's?) site, but I don't really know? Is there something on that website that made you think this? And if so, can you point us to it?
Bradford Hatcher calls 39 'Impasse' - my take: here the mountain passes are flooded (trigrams water above mountain) and so even if our ultimate destination is to the north / east, the best way forward is to first travel south / west. For me it can be about which positive (or necessary) detours (choices) we take - even if at times these are not the most direct route.
This also reminds me, in the Carlos Castinada books, Don Juan suggests that if we're undecided about what direction to take, or decision to make that we ask ourselves, 'is this a path with heart?' I wonder, could this also be what these 'directions' are about?
Sorry, but can you clarify, by ‘signs’ do you mean Chinese characters/words? And does the ‘13’ refer to the number of times you’re seeing specific characters - ex. a count of the number of times you’ve found ‘east’ or ‘south’ ...?I've counted: 13 signs on the Biroccosite and 13 signs used by B.H. (Chinese signs)
The number of Chinese signs in both Birocco, Bradford Hatcher and Gregory C. Richter (GCR being pinyin characters) is a total of 14, but as the first character in the Judgement is the Tag, there are 13 characters.Sorry, but can you clarify, by ‘signs’ do you mean Chinese characters/words? And does the ‘13’ refer to the number of times you’re seeing specific characters - ex. a count of the number of times you’ve found ‘east’ or ‘south’ ...?
Best, D.
The number of Chinese signs in both Birocco, Bradford Hatcher and ...
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).