...life can be translucent

Menu

Memorizing the I Ching 26. Ta Ch'u / The Taming Power of the Great

B

bruce_g

Guest
Why?

What I mean is, why would you intentionally disable your own cart? Or do you mean disabling someone else's cart, hence you being the vandal?

Anyway, you're not completely immobilized... remember the horses? They didn't have horseless carriages in those days. So you just ride a horse to the local Cart and Axle Company to get some spare parts and you're back in business.

The metaphor is typically directed to tame ones own animals, so naturally it is ones own axle which is removed, effectively restraining and calming wild urges and surges. It may be as simple as dealing with an exciting idea, where rather than thinking it through in a calming way, you rush headlong into it.

I watched a recent program on the "best cowboy"; a competition between the country's best young ranchers and rodeo riders. There was a notable difference between these two groups. The pro ranchers approached their livestock and horse calmly, confidently, slowly, while the rodeo pros were aggressive in their riding and with the animals. To the rancher, the animal's welfare always came first. The rodeo guys put their own achievments first.

This was most noticeable in the wild stallion competition, when each cowboy was given 45 minutes to saddle up and then ride a wild horse which had yet been ridden. Only one succeeded in the alloted time. Watching him work with his unbroken horse was the best lesson in 26 I've ever witnessed - sheer mastery. The animal was always given the time it needed to return to itself, before the trainer would proceed. With the others it was a contest of will, and the animal would move further and further from itself. They all got their saddles on first, but the horse would rebel and throw it off. The master's horse never threw his saddle.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Btw, I doubt they had transmissions in their carts back then. Today we can put our carts in neutral, and the 400 horses under the hood can't pull it along.

I believe disengagement is the theme here.
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
About TAMING

Bruce:
The metaphor is typically directed to tame ones own animals...
The pro ranchers approached their livestock and horse calmly, confidently, slowly, while the rodeo pros were aggressive in their riding and with the animals. To the rancher, the animal's welfare always came first. The rodeo guys put their own achievments first.

Beautiful.
I also feel that 26 speaks about taming and that advices to stop the cart.

Going in cart = going bold, going far from the soil
Disabling the wheel = putting feet in hearth, being calm and more realistic.

Like ranchers, take care of your animal welfare.

And taming?

To tame = to domesticate = to soothe = become friend
To tame a horse isn't to break a horse.

A good example of what tame is from Sainth Exupery: The Little Prince (JunZi ?)

«I am a fox», the fox said.
«Come and play with me», proposed the little prince...
«I cannot play with you», the fox said. «I am not tamed».
«Ah! Please excuse me», said the little prince.
But, after some thought, he added:
«What does that mean: tame
...«You must be very patient», replied the fox. «First you will sit down at a little distance from me -like that- in the grass. I shall look at you out of the corner of my eye, and you will say nothing. Words are the source of misunderstandings. But you will sit a little closer to me, every day » ...

Antoine de Saint Exupéry

:)To whom not having read the book I recommend:
http://www.angelfire.com/hi/littleprince/

Yours,


Charly
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Sure, I can translate Chinese...

Based on the Harvard-Yenching Zhouyi above, which differs from most English translations in using the character yue1 (曰) instead of ri4 (日),...

Third Nine: A good horse chase, gaining difficult virtue. Speak guardedly and protect the cart. Advantage in having somewhere to go.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,169
Six in the fourth means:
The headboard of a young bull.
Great good fortune.

This line and the one following it are the two that tame the forward-pushing lower lines. Before a bull's horns grow out, a headboard is fastened to its forhead, so that later when the horns appear they cannot do harm. A good way to restrain wild force is to forestall it. By so doing one achieves an easy and a great success.

The great good fortune of the six in the fourth place consists in the fact that it has JOY.

This line constitutes the horns of the nuclear trigram Tui, which to be sure means sheep and not horned cattle. The line easily restrains the nine at beginning before it has begun to be dangerous, hence the joy.
-Wilhelm
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
6 in the Fourth

六四 童牛之牿。元吉。
liu4 si4 tong2 niu2 zhi1 gu4 yuan2 ji2​

L
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Bradford's translation is much, much closer to the Chinese meaning of this line:

A young bull's corral
Most promising

L
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
Bradford's translation is much, much closer to the Chinese meaning of this line:

A young bull's corral
Most promising

Why do you think 'corral' is closer to the original meaning than 'headboard'? It's the only time it's mentioned in the Yi, right? How do you judge between meanings when it crops up only once?
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
Why do you think 'corral' is closer to the original meaning than 'headboard'?

Aren't you translating your own version of the Yi?? :) From gu4 (牿) of course... The most accepted character for "headboard" is ma4 (榪)

L
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
BTW, translating into English, I would have used "pen" as in "cattle pen". "Corral" is a Spanish word adopted by the Anglos... Then again, Brad is a guy that lives in "Colorado" (one of the words in Spanish for "red")... :D And then they want to kick all Hispanics south of the imaginary line... :rofl:


Main Entry:
1 cor·ral
Pronunciation:
\kə-ˈral, -ˈrel\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Spanish, from Vulgar Latin *currale enclosure for vehicles, from Latin currus cart, from currere to run — more at car
Date: 1582

L
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Dobro:

Why do you think 'corral' is closer to the original meaning than 'headboard'?

Yo're wright. Here the meaning of 牿(gu) could be «yoke», headboard sounds pretty abstract but «yoke» (some etymology as «yoga») speaks about burden and joints, also about marriage.

Wilhelm comments gu like a torture, a hornbinding (like chinese footbinding), but why this can be fortunate for bulls? He thinks like a rodeo guy?

I feel that 26.4 is about coutship an marriage.
Don't ask you what gu is, yet. Do you who Niu(牛) is. Niu is a bull, in this case a young one, not yet innitiated.
Think you're that bull, what could make you JOY? Not being castrated, sure. To bear burdens?

Lin Yutang dictionary presents for gu(牿) two modern (or may be not?) meanings: 1) cow (!), 2) castrated bull.

Try with the second : «the castration of a young bull» (Ouuuch!), it's about taming but...
Try whit the first: «the cow of a young bull», can be undestood as «like a cow for a young bull», nice.

Now try whit «yoke»: «the yoke of a young bull». Yoke (conjugal/connubial) ivolves all the meanings at the same time.

Whit his translation 'headboard' Wilhelm/Baynes means yoke, as the chinese gu do.
But commentaries obscures his light.

Yours

Charly
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Yoke seems right. Unlike a shield or corral of some kind, a yoke makes the animal useful, not just safer to be around.
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Considering that in the Shang Dynasty, water buffalo and yaks were also domesticated, those animals could also be used as animals of burden. But it would be senseless to have different lines for water buffalo, yaks and cows... the character for "bull" (牛) encompasses all of those animals.

Along the same lines, I think it makes sense that "gu 牿" could be interpreted as either "corral", "yoke" or "headboard". The Yi uses a character which can encompass all of those meanings. The point behind the line is that the male beast is being restrained in some way, right? Does it matter whether it's with a yoke, a headboard or a corral?
 

martin

(deceased)
Joined
Oct 2, 1971
Messages
2,705
Reaction score
60
Interesting dreams, Bruce. They feel very familiar.
I think I know White Dog, and Black Beast too. :)
 

getojack

visitor
Joined
Jun 13, 1971
Messages
589
Reaction score
10
Thanks for the link, Bruce. I'd read that page before and it made an impression on me then as now.
 
B

bruce_g

Guest
Thanks, guys. Martin, how many white dogs and black beasts can there be? My guess is, only one. :)

Know what's funny about those dreams too? When I dreamed them, I had no idea that fate would move me to the exact landscape of those dreams, even down to the castle rock ridge above me. I had no idea that a certain coyote (white dog) would become such a dear and special friend (the one who belonged to the painter?). There is "something" guiding our lives. Of that I'm quite sure.
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
The point behind the line is that the male beast is being restrained in some way, right? Does it matter whether it's with a yoke, a headboard or a corral?
Remember that «neither plain whithout slope nor going whithot come back».
Also there isn't restraining without expanding.
What is expandend here? the strengh for working? the friendliness of the animal?
What is taming?

You can calm the bull:

by putting him in a corral?
by putting him a yoke/headboard?
by giving him a cow?
by other means?

In the myth underlying the modern chinese San Valentin day there is a niu(牛).
I have read that myth comes from Zhou times.

Some issues:

Niu is a magic animal, helper an sacrified.
His mind were focused in how to get a girl for the Cowboy (NiuLang).
He was who adviced NiuLang how to get ZhiNu for wife.
NiuLang and ZhiNu are the hevenly lovers.
Now NiuLang and ZhiNu crosses the great river (the Milky Way) once a year.

Charly
 

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
... how many white dogs and black beasts can there be?
There are so many White Dogs as Black Beasts as Persons. WD and BB are both inside us.
BB was a wild beast that once was tamed by the unfriendly way, it's said by rodeo guys.
Did you think that Great Beast = 666 ?

Charly
 

dobro p

visitor
Joined
May 19, 1972
Messages
3,223
Reaction score
205
Along the same lines, I think it makes sense that "gu 牿" could be interpreted as either "corral", "yoke" or "headboard". The Yi uses a character which can encompass all of those meanings. The point behind the line is that the male beast is being restrained in some way, right? Does it matter whether it's with a yoke, a headboard or a corral?

I don't think it makes a lot of difference, no. It's restraint of a powerful force in either case, right? The headboard would make the force 'leadable' though, whereas the corral doesn't restrain the force so much as contain it. Hairsplitting? Maybe. I'm willing to look at it though, on the offchance that it makes the line clearer for me.

Right now, I'm going for 'headboard' or 'hornboard', and here's why: the valuation of 26.4 is more positive than that of 26.5. 26.5 talks about rendering a dangerous thing un-dangerous, and it describes that situation as 'fortunate'. But 26.4 is described as 'prime fortunate'. So what makes the restaint of the young bull more auspicious than the restraint of the pig? I think it might be that the restraint of the bull allows you to actually *use* the animal's energy for your own useful purposes - a headboard allows you to actually control the animal, maybe use it for plowing or something, I dunno, I'm no husbandman. The restraint of the pig means you avoid injury, which is good. The restraint of the bull is better. I reckon it's cuz you can use the bull's energy. A corral doesn't give you that sort of control. A headboard does.

No?
 
Last edited:
H

hmesker

Guest
Why do you think 'corral' is closer to the original meaning than 'headboard'? It's the only time it's mentioned in the Yi, right? How do you judge between meanings when it crops up only once?

A good dictionary like the Hanyu Da Zidian can help you decide. In the case of gu 牿 4 meanings are given:

1. 關牛馬的圈欄. A circular fence for enclosing oxes or horses.
2. 從圈欄中放出來的牛馬. Oxes or horses which are released from within the circular fence.
3. 綁在牛角上使其不能觸人的橫木. A horizontal piece of wood placed on the horns of an ox so that it can not touch humans.
4. 用同'梏'. 桎梏,束縛. Used for gu 梏. Wooden handcuffs, to tie up.

For the first and second meaning the 書經 is cited, the Book of History, thus an old resource for these meanings. The third meaning, however, is only mentioned in the 正字通 and 篇海類編 dictionaries, which are both from the Ming dynasty (1368-1644). The only other example that is given of a text which is supposed to use this meaning of the character is H26-4 in the Yijing. The Hanyu Da Zidian quotes 李鼎祚 Li Dingzuo from the Tang dynasty (618-907) who explains this meaning, and it seems as if this is the oldest usage of this meaning. In other words, the meaning of 'headboard' seems to be quite late, or at least not in use during the time the Yijing is supposed to be written. Meaning 1. or 2. are the most likely options.

Harmen.
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,169
Interesting that line 4 is associated with line one. Wilhelm says of line one, "He sees himself held back firmly" and in line 4 he comments, "A good way to restrain wild force is to forestall it." It suggests to me that the boistrous energy of line one is held back by the restraining energy of line 4. I haven't paid much attention to how the lines influence each other. I mean, should we consider that a higher line has an effect on a lower line? Like at line 1, the person may not realize why he's feeling held back, should one suspect that on some other level he is being intentionally restrained? Like let's say you feel you're being smothered, and then you wake up and at this higher level of conciousness you realize your dog has jumped on the bed and is lying on top of you?

Anyway, I am not convinced that the headboard idea means "Great good fortune" because of the possible future service the bull will be able to provide. I mean, everything in the hexagram points is about RESRAINT and thus the headboard is only said to be associated with JOY because now the restraint overcomes danger. So I think speculation about good fortune coming from future service because of the headboard is outside the meaning of this line.

Actually, I vote for "corral". Yesterday I inadvertantly closed the gate while our neighbor's dog was still in our garden, so I had an actual life experience with a corral and then as I returned to free him, Dante decided to take off up the road on his own when my back was turned. I had a pretty sure idea this was where he had gone, but I could have been frantic. But anyway, the incident got me to focus on the benefits of a corral and how you can give a child a lot more freedom, he can have a larger area to roam in if it is fensed, and also how you can more easily train an animal if he's fensed in a corral. So I'm seeing 26.4 as touting the benefits of having fensed area.
I see also that part of 26.1's problem is being in a large exposed unfamiliar area, like the Innocent of 25 knows he doesn't know what is expected, and worries he could be attacked from all sides. 26.4 says, "Don't worry about everything, put up some boundries."
 

Sparhawk

One of those men your mother warned you about...
Clarity Supporter
Joined
Sep 17, 1971
Messages
5,120
Reaction score
107
The Hanyu Da Zidian quotes 李鼎祚 Li Dingzuo from the Tang dynasty (618-907) who explains this meaning, and it seems as if this is the oldest usage of this meaning. In other words, the meaning of 'headboard' seems to be quite late, or at least not in use during the time the Yijing is supposed to be written. Meaning 1. or 2. are the most likely options.

Harmen.

Thank you Harmen. That's what I tried to imply in my previous message, for two reasons: 1. Brad is very precise in the translation of Chinese characters, always trying to find the "oldest" meaning of a character. 2. Because even the current dictionaries have "shed or pen for cattle" as the most common use for 牿 (gù). All the other meanings are more modern meanings and derivations of the character.

Now, I don't see any conflict between using a "corral" vs "yoke" to tame a bull. They all helps us visualize an animal that is under human control. The only difference is in the precise imagery used and what can be extracted from it in the interpretation of an Yi answer.


L
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,169
0 Six in the fifth place means:
The tusk of a gelded boar.
Good fortune.

Here the restraining of the impetuous forward drive is achieved in an indirect way. A boar's tusk is in itself dangerous, but if the boar's nature is altered, the tusk is no longer a minace. Thus also where men are concerned, wild force should not be combated directly; instead its roots should be eradicated.

The good fortune of the six in the fifth place consists in the fact that it has blessing.

Another interpretation reads: "The tethering post of a young pig." The meaning is doubtless that of an indirect check before the danger grows formidable. An old commentary connects the pig of this line, as well as the bull of the preceding line, with sacrificial rites, hence the good fortune and the blessing. In any case, the blessing comes from the relationship of this line to the middle line of the lower trigram, heaven.
 
Last edited:

charly

visitor
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
2,315
Reaction score
243
Yes, the one inside us all is the "one" I meant: Archetypal beast.
In a manner of speaking, yes. The dreams followed the renunciation of the literalism of my Christian faith.

Archetypes are the true stuff of our life. Great Beast in't only one , but many archetypes mixed. Like a sort of Frankenstein made by adding small pieces of our own worse dreams. Some modern school translators give to H.26 the name of Grat Beasts or Great Sacrificial Animals. Is it a coincidence that Grat Beast appears here? I think NO.

Moderns don't see the taming aspect as Whilhelm do, they only see the bloody sacrifices. I feel that Wilhelm landscape is wider and wiser that modern's landscape. but I lso think thar Wilhelm speaks to whom can listen his underlying message. He darkens his light.

In the real life even White Dogs can become Grat Beasts, for example from a Little Hamster's poin of view (1).

Another example: I love LiSe page, but she is far from being a White Angel, she is quite able to throw a Scorpion in your face! If you don't trust me, ask Luis. (it's joke!)

My short-circuit «666 = Great Beast» was not about religious feelings, I only means that animals, even Great Beasts are God / Heavenly creatures and that we should be friendly whith them and also we should be friendly with our inner beasts (but not to let them lead us).

«friendly with the ABOVE, pacifying his home»

If somebody feel upset, I apologise , but earth moves.

...

After writing this lines I saw your scary face of God, I quite in accord whith you.

Charly
------------------------
(1) About these little guys and danger, see the link provided by S.Marshall to old Tony of Niza page.;)
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top