Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
NO ... the 64 hexagrams are a Zhou invention!Are you correlating the branches and stems to the hexagrams?
hi FrankGiven 64 as the limit of possible hexagrams the question of the sequence becomes a matter of giving meaning to each and every one of the possibilities.
hi Frank
Hi Lienshan,
The sequence of the Zhouyi doesn't matter in practical divination, because the King Wen statements
and the Duke of Zhou linetexts give meaning to each and every one of the possibilities. That's why
the Mawangdui silk sequence is just as functional as the King Wen sequence.
The question of the Zhouyi sequence is to me a matter of historical research.
lienshan
Some details of the King Wen sequence indicate, that the (less) pairs were counted by yang-lines,The set of 64 hexagrams can also be considered the universe of possible outcomes of a 6 place gua or matrix with one clear marker (or two possible lines variants).
Some details of the King Wen sequence indicate, that the (less) pairs were counted by yang-lines,
while the (more) pairs were counted by yin-lines!
Earthly Branch (less) pairs = 10 yang lines
Heavenly Stem (less) pairs = 12 yang lines
Earthly Branch (more) pairs = 12 yin lines
Heavenly Stem (more) pairs = 10 yin lines
03 :!: ::! 04 !:: :!: ZI ........ 2 yang-lines (less)
05 :!: !!! 06 !!! :!: CHOU ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
07 :!: 08 :!: YIN ...... 1 yang-line (less)
09 !!: !!! 10 !!! :!! MAO .... 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
11 !!! 12 !!! CHEN ... 3 yang-lines (less)
13 !!! !:! 14 !:! !!! SI ........ 5 yang-lines (more) 1 yin-lines
15 !:: 16 ::! WU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
17 :!! ::! 18 !:: !!: WEI ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
19 :!! 20 !!: SHEN ... 2 yang-lines (less)
21 !:! ::! 22 !:: !:! YOU ..... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
23 !:: 24 ::! XU ...... 1 yang-line (less)
25 !!! ::! 26 !:: !!! HAI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
31 :!! !:: 32 ::! !!: JIA ..... 3 yang-lines (less)
33 !!! !:: 34 ::! !!! YI ....... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
35 !:! 36 !:! BING ... 2 yang-lines (less)
37 !!: !:! 38 !:! :!! DING ... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
39 :!: !:: 40 ::! :!: WU ..... 2 yang-lines (less)
41 !:: :!! 42 !!: ::! JI ....... 3 yang-lines (more) 3 yin-lines
43 :!! !!! 44 !!! !!: GENG .. 5 yang-lines (more) # 1 yin-lines
45 :!! 46 !!: XIN ..... 2 yang-lines (less) #
47 :!! :!: 48 :!: !!: REN .... 3 yang-lines (less)
49 :!! !:! 50 !:! !!: GUI ..... 4 yang-lines (more) 2 yin-lines
Details are sometimes harder to understand than universal principles
lienshan
There are in fact TWO counterexamples (#). They might disprove the set of details, but they might as well tell exactly which hexagrams that was changed? Just like looking for fingerprints after a crimeOne counterexample disproves a set of details.
There are in fact TWO counterexamples (#). They might disprove the set of details, but they might as well tell exactly which hexagrams that was changed? Just like looking for fingerprints after a crime
A problem worth noticing is, that I can't find any translation of the Branch and Stem pictographs?
hi Frank ... GREAT ompom:It works for me.
hi Frank R ... thanks for the translationNow then, why would anyone want the mere more or less stuff over the detailed hexagram meaning for each hexagram and sequence number?
hi Frank ... GREAT ompom:
hi Frank R ... thanks for the translation
The first branch is translated "child" ... the corresponding hexagrams 3 and 4 are "Difficulty at the beginning" and "Youthful folly" ... even a child can recognize a context. I really look foreward to examine the sequence from this point of view
lienshan
NO ... the 64 hexagrams are a Zhou invention!
Hi Lienshan,
sorry for the long delay in answering back-been terribly busy up till now.Regarding the above statement please check this paper posted sometime ago by Luis:SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT MILFOIL DIVINATION BASED ON SHANG AND ZHOU BAGUA NUMERICAL SYMBOLS".It is in the Divination News section.
The Branches and Stems were a part of the Shang milfoil divination method. They used a system of 36 figures made of six numbers. They used the numbers |X| five, /\ six, t seven, )( eight. They made two figures when divining like they made two figures when showing a day of Branch and Stem. One figure was the the six numbers viewed as odd or even. The other figure was the same six numbers viewed as high or low.
I understand the interpretation of those numerals as stems and branches-I still do not understand what you are trying to do by placing the name of the 12 earthly branches and 10 heavenly stems by the hexagram numbers.If you are not correlating or relating them in any way how can they explain the sequence?None of them were ever related to the I Ching hexagrams-they are clearly associated to the 5 elements or processes or agents and are alternately yin or yang and in the case of the 12 earthly branches,to the 12 astrological animal signs.On the "Treatise on harmonizing times and distinguishing directions" commisioned by Emperor Qianlong in 1740,translated by Thomas Aylward as"The Imperial guide to feng shui and chinese astrology"there are pairings of the 12 earthly branches with stems and trigrams and goes on to say that"this convention makes it possible to equate one sexagenary stem/branch pair with each line of a hexagram" been those the primary hexagrams,i.e. the ones that are made of the two same trigrams.And that's it...I also have a translation of the names of the stems and branches from Jean Michel Huon De Kermadec"The way to Chinese astrology-4 pillars of destiny",somewhat similar to the one posted by Frank Kegan oand although it shows a promising beginning at 3/4 the rest of them are no much.Also according to Alfred Huang's classification of the hexagrams by their agent ascendency i.e hexagram 3 is a wood hexagram the series does not match the order of the stems or branches.So...what is it you are relating to the sequence?Is it just a coincidence of a number of hexagrams in between the ones D,Mair uses as dividing markers?If that is so then you can add by the end of the 14 lonely pairs the 28 constellations used in Chinese astrology. Anyway my question(s) are still standing.Again my apologies for my delay in answering.
Sergio
hi FrankIs Tzu just a little one?
hi Frank
Maybe, maybe not? I'm more focused on the connection between the twelve branch-translation-words:
Child, Clown, Reverence, Constellation, Dawn, Snake, Noon, Not yet, Stretch, Liquor, Weapon, Darkness
And a thought about one of the ten Stem-translations ...
why name a Shang King ... Ting - Used for a name of an unknown person ???
lienshan
The hexagrams made of whole and broken lines are a Zhou invention suited for the Zhouyi divination method. The BaGua Numerical Symbols are figures made of at least four numbers depending of the divination method used. When the at least four numbers are divided into odd and even numbers, then one single archaeological found show the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10. This indicate, that the whole King Wen hexagram sequence probably is very similar to an older sequence of Numerical Symbols. That's why it's almost impossible to explain the King Wen sequence, because the main order of the hexagrams is decided by the rules of still unknown numerology.Regarding the above statement please check this paper posted sometime ago by Luis:SOME OBSERVATIONS ABOUT MILFOIL DIVINATION BASED ON SHANG AND ZHOU BAGUA NUMERICAL SYMBOLS"
The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are as a fact clearly related to the Shang tortoise divination method predating "5 elements", "yin-yang", "animal signs", etc, with at least 600 years. The Earthly Branches and Heavenly Stems are written on thousands of tortoise plastrons dating the divinations of the Shang kings.None of them were ever related to the I Ching hexagrams-they are clearly associated to the 5 elements or processes or agents and are alternately yin or yang and in the case of the 12 earthly branches,to the 12 astrological animal signs.
{Bold added}When the at least four numbers are divided into odd and even numbers, then one single archaeological found show the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10. This indicate, that the whole King Wen hexagram sequence probably is very similar to an older sequence of Numerical Symbols. That's why it's almost impossible to explain the King Wen sequence, because the main order of the hexagrams is decided by the rules of still unknown numerology.
hi Frank ... that there are not 60 but 64 hexagrams ... the oldest known chinese numbering system are sets of eight tortoise shells found in several 8000 years old shaman graves. One of the shamans had eight shells instead of the head. I'm not connecting these founds with the King Wen sequence but use them to tell, that I prefer researching ancient shamanic numerology to modern phytagorean philosophy in this connection.What is so difficult about using the Chinese numbering system with its sets of 10?
trigram Lake :!! changing to trigram Wind !!:In the older line-number system what trigram would 8-7-5 represent? And would these three numbers generate an entire hexagram somehow (reading them up and down perhaps?)
hi Frank ... that there are not 60 but 64 hexagrams ... the oldest known chinese numbering system are sets of eight tortoise shells found in several 8000 years old shaman graves. One of the shamans had eight shells instead of the head. I'm not connecting these founds with the King Wen sequence but use them to tell, that I prefer researching ancient shamanic numerology to modern phytagorean philosophy in this connection.
trigram Lake :!! changing to trigram Wind !!:
(6 and 7 correspond to "steady lines" while 5 and 8 correspond to "changing lines" according to the distribution of the divination method 1 Numerical Symbols found)
You can generate an entire hexagram e.g. by following this counting rule:
The inner/lower trigram is made of either odd (5-7) or even (6-8) numbers
The outer/upper trigram is made of either high (7-8) or low (5-6) numbers
lienshan
hi sergio ... I see your pointe :bows: ... but I still think that there is an important difference. Schuyler Cammann used this definition: "A hexagram is a linear figure composed of six straight whole or broken lines". But the figures of e.g. the Wangjiatai Guicang are composed of the numbers one _ , six /\ and eight )( , like the 3000 year old pottery pat with the King Wen sequence 7-8-9-10The Lien Shan(sounds familiar?)the Book of Changes of the legendary Hsia Dynasty was supposed to begin with HEXAGRAM KEN-KEEPING STILL then theKUEI tS'ANG WAS TO START WITH HEXAGRAM K'UN.Been that the case,namely that these two older versions start with different hexagrams ,is it possible to say,still .that"the hexagrams are a Chou-King Wen invention"?How are those hexagrams different to the other hexagrams?
I think otherwise: Each hexagrampair of equal yang-lines was represented by one stalk. That'll say, that some of the all in all 36 stalks could be used to count the time. 12 stalks from the 18 of chapter one and 10 stalks from the 18 of chapter two. Or put in other words: I try to imagine a pre-book yi divination manual of stalks.Although the idea of combining the branches and stems to generate hexagrams is certainly interesting that would leave us with 60 hexagrams(I'm sure Frank will be delighted to read this)
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).