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11 unchanging (and 46.1 to 11 and others)

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(please excuse my english when needed : )

Hi all, this is my first post here.
I'm sharing my reading because I can't find the way to understanding.
I got 11 unchanging as a response about how to act and 11 it is more of a "time" or "state" as far as I can see.

The context is a relationship. A beautiful love relationship that has been interrupted because the other part has some fears which made her hesitate about getting fully in. That was a sort of end. Now after some weeks of complete silence there is contact again and I need to either say good bye or be more patient because waiting like this, open and understanding, hurts me.
I Ching responses made me reconsider the option of being patient a bit more time...

Last two questions to the Master were:
A. Which is the potential of this relationship? --> 46.1 to 11 (Pushing Upward --> Peace)
B. What should I do respect this relationship? --> 11 unchanging (Peace)

Past questions (along six weeks):
1. How can this relationship be saved? --> 24.1.5 to 8 (Return --> Holding together)
2. What do I have to know about this relationship? --> 3 unchanging (Initial Difficulty/Sprout)
3. What do I have to know about her and me? --> 8 unchanging (Holding together)
4. What can I do to get back this love relationship? --> 48.5 to 46 (Well --> Pushing Upward)
5. Still possible this relationship as a couple? (oops! "yes or no") --> 19.1 to 7 (Approach --> Army)
6. see A above (46.1 to 11)
7. see B above (11 unchanging)

Many seed/sprout responses (24.1, 3, 46…)
Ascensing responses (19.1, 46, 46.1 …)
That's why I finally asked "what should I do", and got 11, which I don't know how to apply for "do"
If I stop being patient and force a determination or an end I would close the door to any sprout (24.1, 3, 46) that MAY be growing, what COULD be a new chapter of the relationship in the form of harmony (11, 8)… that's why I ask what to do...
Note the other part might be determined to end already, I don't know. Questions were made before communication gets fluid and natural again so we can talk as we should.


I will highly appreciate all your help

Thanks,

Fern
 
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forgot to share some words about how I read it…!

A. 46.1 to 11: The (new chapter of) relationship is growing from it's lowest stage step by step and is welcomed/helped (by the cosmos?) It tends to harmony and mutual understanding.
B. 11 unchanging: can't read this coming from my question

The thing is I can't see signs of growing or acceptance or harmony so far (46-46.1)
What is 11 unchanging telling me to do respect this relationship…?



My trial readings of earlier questions

1. 24.1.5 to 8: a seed (24.1) from ended relationship, something new, son of it. Have to be generous (24.5) Tends to union through shared projects (8)

2. 3 Unchanging: initial danger, chaos, unclear, fog that will clear up and then sprout. Important not to interfere and respect sprout's own way of growing.
But I'm really confused with line pairs, 1-4/2-5/3-6... how to act, which one I'm in, etc. Would not like to end up isolated as line 6. I've been waiting like lines 1 and 5. Made small approaches like line 5. Looked for help (3.1) from others, from the book, from the sky, from my own intuition...

3. 8 unchanging: union through common projects?

4. 48.5 to 46: Unclear if 48.5 is I Ching talking about itself or me or the relationship. The clear wisdom water is there to drink… tending to a growth (46)

5. 19.1 to 7: There is an approach (true that I'm approaching) it should be a mutual approach (I can't see the "mutual" aspect happening) to work things together and clear up the mess (7)
 
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altair139

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Be patient. All of the hexagrams point out that you should be with her through her hardest time, not just demanding an answer from her. They also talk about reunion (hex 8 appeared twice, hex 11 indicates positive communication, hex 46 means progress). The potential of this relationship working out is good, but you have to be patient and more understanding. Girls usually have a lot of lingering emotional issues.
 
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Thank you very much altair139.

Due to my limited english, can't understand "through her hardest time" May I ask you to say it in some other way please?

I'm not urging her for an answer it is just that on my side I need to do something to feel more detached so I can wait the right way (as hexagram 5 recommends, let's say : ) Being open to her and understanding takes huge amounts of energy.
Maybe 11 is telling me how to wait? Still can't get the message from unchanging 11…

thanks again
 

altair139

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Means you have to stay by her side when she's having troubles. Right now she might have an emotional issue according to your story. Be more supportive and make her feel at ease first, dont pressure her too hard to get your answer.
Hex 11 means peace. This means you have to make you yourself and your girlfriend at peace first (rid of emotional issues and insecurities). This hexagram is also about positive communication. Talk things out with her in a nice manner will help.
 
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I may be on the right path then, thank you altair139.
Approaching and getting into good communication again is not being easy, once time have make things cooler.
You make very interesting points.


Any other help very welcome



.
 
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Any other reading help for my last two questions please?

A. Which is the potential of this relationship? --> 46.1 to 11 (Pushing Upward --> Peace)
B. What should I do respect this relationship? --> 11 unchanging (Peace)

Although I think we have a true "inner connection" and that there is something worth to save, reality is that we are officially apart.
That's why I'm interested in interpretation of this Pushing Upward / Peace.

Should I read there is a true potential growing by getting 46.1?
Or, otherwise, that response is just saying it is possible but not necessarily happening?



Also, were this questions properly formulated?


thanks in advance
 
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altair139

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all the hexes and changing lines are auspicious so i dont think there's anymore problems but only your insecurities
46 means great process, the relationship at the point of time when you ask the question is getting better actually, maybe in a sense that her feeling is starting to warm up to you. There's a chance that you two will make this relationship last long.
Line 1 is auspicious, it shows a man advancing forward to those who welcome him, most likely it's talking about your gf welcoming you back.
Wing: "Although your position within the situation of your inquiry is low in stature, you have a natural accord with your superiors. Advancement and promotion are possible through industrious work on your part. This will give those above you confidence in your abilities. Good fortune."

11 as i said before is positive communication, you and her will work it out in the future.

Distance is one of the most trivial difficulties in a relationship. If the love is strong enough, no geographical distance can set you apart.
 
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sooo

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Hi Fern,

I see this more as Yi's way of advising you to get in harmony within yourself, holding together within yourself (keep it together), exerting your own will with confidence to ascend - just as heaven moves upward into earth, in 11. 19 refers to overseeing. 19.1 is not like 19.2, in that it relies upon you to create this unity. We are, in simplest terms, a duality.

It's possible that this inner condition may attract this other person, but even if it doesn't, you'll find your inner condition improving, with or without her.
 
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Thank you sooo

I had that view in mind too. In any case inner work always yields external results.

Do you have that view for 46.1 to 11 and 11 unchanging or about all responses?

.
 
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sooo

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In any case inner work always yields external results.

Well said!

Do you have that view for 46.1 to 11 and 11 inch. or about all responses?

11 "inch." or 11 unchanging, or something else?

Yes on 46.1 to 11, and your entire reading. But it is not my view the Yi won't straight away speak about external matters or other people or our relationships. It depends on where the change or information is most needed. I had the feeling concerning your given situation that the Yi wasn't ministering as a relationship councilor but as an inner guidance system: setting a course by adjusting your own bearings.
 
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many thanks for your wise advise sooo

Maybe for relationships the only thing one can do is to work from it's own side of it.

The thing is that at the same time the responses are coherent with a time of "possible" reborn of the relationship. Of course my own reborn has to be done too for things to advance.
So wondering if I can read it both ways, external and internal…

Also, questions 2 and 3 were "what do I have to know…" What do you think about those questions and answers?
 
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sooo

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Maybe for relationships the only thing one can do is to work from it's own side of it.
If in no other way but to gain an objective overview (19) of that relation or particular dynamic within it. If our own position is 'on course', then acquiring better understanding outside ourselves or including ourselves can be very helpful.

I do not put shackles on Yi's feet, but try instead to remove the beam from my own eye. I don't always succeed though.

Half of cognition relies on our intuition or other subtle and creative sensitivities; the right hemisphere of our brain.

The thing is that at the same time the responses are coherent with a time of "possible" reborn of the relationship. Of course my own reborn has to be done too for things to advance.
So wondering if I can read it both ways, external and internal…

Often I've found this to be true. "As above, so below" - another way of expressing the intercourse within 11.

I view the same regarding the "changing hexagram" and the so-called "relating hexagram". Here the general premiss is that the second hexagram is always the context of the reading, while others hold it to refer to what the primary hexagram will literally change to. To me it's a chicken or egg paradox, depending on how it's explained as a whole. It is the context, and it's also the potential resulting change. Inner or outer, same thing. On a philosophic level, I think we experience outwardly at least some of our own inner condition. If we view ourselves as being oppressed, we're likely to actually experience external oppression. Rich or poor, and to some degree even our health can be reflected. I'm not saying a person gets cancer as a result of a bad attitude, but a bad attitude has never helped to cure cancer either, nor a heart condition, depression, nor a sick or dying relationship.

Also, questions 2 and 3 were "what do I have to know…" What do you think about those questions and answers?

2. What do I have to know about this relationship? --> 3 unchanging (Initial Difficulty/Sprout)
3. What do I have to know about her and me? --> 8 unchanging (Holding together)

Yes. :mischief:

If you keep yourself together, wouldn't that be the best chance you have with her? Every action and no-action that comes from having it together within yourself would be your best action or no-action toward her.
 
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sooo

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Feel I should add, in regard to the intercourse within 11, as below, so above. Heaven below moves upward, earth gravitates downward, and the two become one.

In the same regard, if she were to apply these same principles we're talking about, such as keeping it together, that in turn would keep her together with you. And if you both did that, it would lead to 11.

h3 is untangling the knot. You must first separate before you can unite. But of course you can't control what she does, only what you do. Still, it's nice when two work it out this way.
 

innertruth

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I just cannot keep silence. I need to share my vision. My comments are straightly linked to the lines and their contents.

1. How can it be saved? 24.1.5 to 8. Basically these two changing lines point at two conditions: it was not too late to save it when you asked Iching this question, as long as you return back to communication (as you mentioned it was cold and distant). And if you truly have some higher goal (relationship mending) - return is auspicious. Wing interprets it as : " You are aware of the need for a new beginning and have the courage to make the change. By observing your faults with objectivity and resolution at this time you will gain the strength of character necessary to overcome them" (it suggests some correct and critical self-examination and points to some mistakes done before in the situation).
2. 3 unchanging - there is a threshold needs to be overcome in general between you. This barrier is a lack of clarity, overall confusion, Misunderstanding so to say. Once this barrier is removed, things look promising,especially considering all nice hexagrams you got.
3. 8 unchanging - could point to your wish to unite that might be welcomed from her side too.
It could mean you both want an encounter. Or any kind of reunion.
4. 48.5 to 46: You have all the potential to succeed. However this success is directly linked to the overall consistency of your intention. 46 advises going South is auspicious - which means uniting with her, but Superior man should be correct all the way through in order for it to happen (I guess Superior man is a Chinese equivalent of a 'gentleman' who keeps his words and actions intact).
5. 19.1 to 7: Mutual advance means whether you can see it or not - the potential to advance is mutual, however line 7.1 warns that in the beginning you need to think twice whether you will be pursuing this relationship. The potential, thus is an open question - and it depends on how far you both want to go in this relationship, whether you have common goals or common vision of the relationship (like in a war - good generals need why they are going for a war (7-Army) - of course figuratively.

I still wonder though whether you see it applying to your concrete situation
 
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sooo thanks for all that wise help, I really appreciate it.

I understood about 11 the first go and thought about what you said now.

And completely agree (and apply here) about the knot noted in hexagram 3.
Sure there is a knot in the relationship and to be solved each one has to untangle it's own knot.
The most obvious one is her knot, which apparently doesn't let her to be completely in the relationship.

And keeping myself together, cohesionate, individuate is the Work, no doubt.
And no doubt that working that way oneself makes external relationships happen and work.

Thanks a million again


innertruth Thank you very much, please don't delete it this time : )
 
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S

sooo

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sooo thanks for all that wise help, I really appreciate it.

I understood about 11 the first go and though about what you said now.

And completely agree (and apply here) about the knot noted in h3

And keeping myself together, cohesionate, individuate is the Work, no doubt.
And no doubt that working that way oneself makes external relationships happen and work.

Thanks a million again

Thanks to you too for the exchange of ideas and for sharing your depth of understanding. It exuberates my enthusiasm! :)

Sorry if I seemed redundant on 11. It's just that rendering 11 as Peace, as is most common, doesn't do justice. And, the well known saying: As above, so below - never seems to reciprocate with: As below, so above - and I think the latter is actually more the condition of 11; that is, leadership and influence come from below; a rather rare concept except in nature (and Yi) where living things grow from the bottom upward, as expressed in 46.

:bows:
 
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no redundant at all about 11, I meant I was thinking about it the same way.
And 11 is a very good goal, so anything, even said more than once, is very welcome.

The enlightment about hex 3 as a knot to untangle was useful. And about separate before unite.
Hex 3 was the response to "what I need to know about this rel." after I asked how to save it.
Right to the point
 
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1. How can it be saved? 24.1.5 to 8. Basically these two changing lines point at two conditions: it was not too late to save it when you asked Iching this question, as long as you return back to communication (as you mentioned it was cold and distant). And if you truly have some higher goal (relationship mending) - return is auspicious. Wing interprets it as : " You are aware of the need for a new beginning and have the courage to make the change. By observing your faults with objectivity and resolution at this time you will gain the strength of character necessary to overcome them" (it suggests some correct and critical self-examination and points to some mistakes done before in the situation).

This is very interesting.
Ten days after that session I broke the 5 weeks no-contact silence in a way that showed my "high goals" and was well understood by her (well, she knows anyway : )
I insisted 10 days later in a similar way and was well received too and opened communication, although still in a light (not truly intimate) way.
Communication *seems* to be slowly opening towards the right mood, but we'll see.

The Wing interpretation is right to the point, thanks a lot for the highlight.
I'm still there, literally what Wing says... hope is not too late:

"You are aware of the need for a new beginning and have the courage to make the change. By observing your faults with objectivity and resolution at this time you will gain the strength of character necessary to overcome them" (it suggests some correct and critical self-examination and points to some mistakes done before in the situation)"

Never too late for a new beginning on myself. Who knows in the case of the relationship
 
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Interesting how hexagrams 24, 3 and 46 all talk about a seed/sprout and insist not to interfere or be very cautious and patient.

.
 
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Since I already opened this thread including other questions and answers around the main ones (46.1 to 11 and 11 unchanging, called A/6 and B/7 on my first post) I'll post a question and answer I did after those two.
I may open a new thread for this one, but since we talked about the other questions already, I'm including it now, hope it's OK...


Wondering about which was the best way to reestablish fluid and intimate communication, as hex 11 seems to suggest, and if I should keep initiating all communications with the other part, I made a new question.
This was before sooo made me rethink all answers more as indications for inner work.

I had hex. 11 in mind, that kind of balanced and mutually enjoyed communication between heaven and earth, he and she, let's say also my inner and my outer sides...
We had that kind of communication before, of course, and we enjoyed it very much. But you know what happens after a break...
Did I have that kind of communication with myself before? Yes, before and around the time this relationship started and growed at the beginning. Then the knot (h 3) and it's consequences started to "51" the relationship : )

So I asked :

8. "How to reestablish mutual communication/attraction?" --> 35 unchanging (Progress/Advance)

Again, as it happened with hexagram 11 before your generous help came in, can't read it as "how to act" since it talks about a time, a state, a quality...

Would like your help about how to read it re.my question and how do you think it relates to the rest of questions and context.

.
 
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sooo

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I've always liked LiSe's idea of a quiver full of arrows for 35. I think this speaks to potential and preparation more than fixed fate. As she put it, "The one who always carries along arrows is probably the only one who comes home from a walk with a rabbit for dinner." She calls the hexagram "The Gift". She may prefer chocolates over a rabbit though, lol.
 
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Yes, read that before, loved it.
Well, a rabbit prepared in a creative way would be fine I think, lol

The whole paragraph from "The Gift" :

"Prosperity does not arrive by itself, it visits the people with the right attitude. The one who always carries along arrows is probably the only one who comes home from a walk with a rabbit for dinner. The lord of Kang grasped the opportunity of a gift to breed a meadow full of horses.
The first one who sees a gap in the market builds up the multinational.
Grasp the small chances, do not wait for the big one to arrive, stay alert with eyes and ears and hands ready, and a quiver filled with arrows."



Do hex 35 indicate that the right attitude (and then the merits, favor and gifts) is already there?
Or it is advicing to correct our attitude and deserve that favor and gifts?

I have difficulty connecting it to my "how to" question though...
or may be is just that... it is happening now and we hope you made enough arrows to fill your quiver!


Well, true is that 1 hour after I asked Yi, I had one of those small chances and used it the best I could (she initiated written communication in a friendlier mood, just that)
Hmm... just now another small chance landed, fattier than the first one... lol She just happened to call me home in a pretty good mood. Time to make more arrows! hehehe
But so far it means nothing really, we'll see...


Have a nice and enlightened week you all btw

.
 
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sooo

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Interesting. It looks like your answer came to you before I came back here to read about it.

But my response to your question: yes, sometimes, depending. How's that for a resolving answer! That is how I view it. Sometimes Yi's answer turns out to be an augury, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." But then sometimes it's completely conditional advice. Sometimes it's just something to contemplate. In my view, very little about the IC is black or white or absolute 100% of the time. It looks as though in your particular case, it was all of the above, yet there are still left things for you to decide and do, or not do. So then, how would you answer that question?

Thanks, and may your week be gifted.
 
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Feel I should add, in regard to the intercourse within 11, as below, so above. Heaven below moves upward, earth gravitates downward, and the two become one.

In the same regard, if she were to apply these same principles we're talking about, such as keeping it together, that in turn would keep her together with you. And if you both did that, it would lead to 11.

h3 is untangling the knot. You must first separate before you can unite. But of course you can't control what she does, only what you do. Still, it's nice when two work it out this way.

That would be ideal. True inner growth for both plus tons of joy

.
 
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I'm starting to understand hexagram 3 unchanging but there's still a lot in the dark…
The question was "What do I have to know about this relationship?"

Since I got 3 unchanging, trying to understand the lines as a whole is not easy for me (versus when there are some mutant ones). The line pairs have specific behaviors and I don't understand how to see where I was or I am, or how to use their message.
Lines 1 and 4: 1st has to wait and be careful not to move. 4th is advised to get closer to 1st.
Lines 2 and 5: 5th is advised not to move, just small movements. 2nd seems to reject 5th and accept it after a long time.
Lines 3 and 6: 3rd don't know where to go and 6th is left "isolated and sad".
Also, the 5th is said to see 1st as a distraction for line 2 and as an opponent.

Line 1 is said to be "the helper". Help from Yi? Help from our intuition? Help from others?
I guess this means help to untangle the knot, to get rid of the fog and see clear. Then grow.

Maybe line 1 is important in my 3 unchanging ("question 2") because it would take me to 8, the resulting hexagram on my previous question ("question 1", 24.1.5 to 8)
Also it was interesting getting hex 3 after 24.1.5 to 8, because hex 3 is 24 and 8 superimposed…: mutating line 1 takes you to hex 8, mutating line 5 takes you to hex 24.

Line pair behavior looked ad-hoc inquiring about a relationship, but I can't get how to use them...
 
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sooo

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I'm starting to understand hexagram 3 unchanging but there's still a lot in the dark…
Other than the number of syllables, that sounds almost like a koan. 3 is being in the dark, or hopefully just emerging from the dark; like labor pains and morning sickness after 1 and 2 have fruitful intercourse. The new life is not yet fully developed, and help comes in many forms for protection and nourishment. Or with a seedling: the rain threatens to drown or wash it away, sun threatens to dry it out, and big feet threaten to step on it. Chaotic and uncertain. But the inner will strives to live and form and grow.

The lines, in your case, are sort of rhetorical since they don't apply. A discussion of the lines would better be addressed in the Exploring Divination section, and there's a thread on both 3 unchanging and also including lines, in the archives. Nothing wrong with playing with the lines pertaining to your situation but only as a peripheral study to understand the nature of 3 better, which I think is what you've done here. However, I wouldn't try too hard to apply them to your situation. They are as you've said: adhoc, and hypothetical. But to be sure, every line can be applied to relationships at certain points of change within that relationship.
 
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(Hehe, true, my phrase was koan-ish. It could be King Crimson's lyrics too...)

wow! lots of work on hexagram 3, thank you very much!
And thanks a lot for your notes on hex 3. I'll get into that pages and see if I can impregnate of 3's message.
I didn't thought about darkness for 3... just fog and chaos

Hex 3 here at Clarity: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/gua/hexagrams/hexagram3.php
I like the whole text, but this called my attention, related to both inner work and to a *possible* re-born relationship:
"clear the ground of preconceived ideas about where you're headed, or even who you are, so that the new growth can emerge naturally and find its own shape. Consequently, this hexagram often comes as a reminder that you stand at the very beginning and are trying to predetermine too much, too soon."


Trying to apply 3 to my relationship...
"let it develop and help it without interfering, without imposing a direction, let it be/grow" ?
How can I help the new born to survive and grow healthy? How can I nourish it? How to help without interfering?

.
 
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