12 Unchanging - What to do about a manager

[steve]

Hello

I am in a situation here i have manager that in the past has been very good, recently he has had some problems with his system and the communication has been very bad, we used to correspond via skype so because of the system we haven't been able to so then we swapped phone numbers, i dont call him often however yesterday i needed to go over an extremely important issue regarding a new sale, he made excuse after excuse via text about why he hadnt come to the phone. I then realisied that he had no intention of coming to the phone and when I confronted him by email he stated that he will do things his way. If thats not good then maybe he should find other options he said. There is a large sale at stake currently so i am really confused.
This came out of the blue his attitude anyway.

I asked what do i need to do about the manager 12 unchanging, I then asked what should be the course of action and recieved 17.1.4.6>2 then lastly asked should i work with him and recieved 11.3>19

I was confused with 12 unchanging I thought well this i already know this relationship is not good and not allot happening however in Line 4 in 17 made me think that maybe i should almost be wary of his motives and line 6 was that if i do move on i will find someone else, then 11.3 seemed to be saying dont compromise your principles, anyway i may have this completely wrong so if anyone has an ide at what i am being advised would be most grateful.
Line 6 may in may also be saying he gets the sale and everything is fantastic
In general i dont have real feel in whats going on with his side of things.

Steve

 

[Trojina]

When you say this is a manager I don't know if you mean he works for you as a manager or if he is your manager managing you ? I presume if he is your manager there's not much you can do.

I asked what do i need to do about the manager 12 unchanging,

There's not a lot you can do with 12uc. You and him aren't connecting and he isn't appreciating your contribution so 12 would counsel to save your energy and stop trying to give your best. Naturally you want to give your best but here it just isn't received. What to do ? Well not this you have to accept it's one of those times where a person isn't receiving you.

I then asked what should be the course of action and recieved 17.1.4.6>2

That's pretty much the same as the first question but Yi has moved on a notch. What to do when the people you are with don't connect with you ? Well 17.1. You go out of the door in search of new people. Yet this is a somewhat complex cast IMO and I wonder if as soon as he sees you disconnect and go to others he tries harder to communicate. Well it's a vague possibility. Line 4 may be predictive that you find favour somewhere and get a bit sucked in by it. In line 6 you are even more committed to your place. Hex 2 can be seen a number of ways here. I often see it as things falling back to 'as they were'. Yang change pattern is 21 so you want to sort this out, yin pattern 48 hmmm it seems a question of reaching your resources, others at your workplace perhaps ?

then lastly asked should i work with him and recieved 11.3>19

I think if you work with him you have to accept he does not have a regular or predictable way of communicating. Sometimes he shuts off, closes down, as he has done recently. I think this is something the one who has more power in the situation is more likely to do. They decide when to speak.

I was confused with 12 unchanging I thought well this i already know this relationship is not good and not allot happening however in Line 4 in 17 made me think that maybe i should almost be wary of his motives and line 6 was that if i do move on i will find someone else, then 11.3 seemed to be saying dont compromise your principles, anyway i may have this completely wrong so if anyone has an ide at what i am being advised would be most grateful.
Line 6 may in may also be saying he gets the sale and everything is fantastic
In general i dont have real feel in whats going on with his side of things.

My overall feeling is you can and will adapt to him (17). He's shutting you out for the moment (12uc) but this will change (11.3) He may also switch to being nice (17.4) You may end up more connected with him than you were before (12.6)

It is hard to read this without knowing your actual relationship with him. I don't know in what sense he is your manager ?

 

[steve]

So sorry i was in a bit of a state when I wrote this , yes I am a partner and he is in charge of sales in the US so technically he is under me,

 

[Windrell]

Dear Steve, STOP working with him, leave him! Nothing good will take place any more!
11.3<19 means forget it, do not insist on this partnership...

 

[steve]

Like I said in the past he has been very approachable and professional and to be honest i feel that he may have felt the call i was making was not worth it and just to see his progress so he took it upon himself ro make that decision without taking the call. The problem I have is that he has been organising a team or an agency to call into the US and they have been trained. It just a matter of money to be paid to the agency. So there is that, plus the fact we have other leads out there one of them with pretty much an open cheque book that I have no Idea what is really going on.
So by only communicating with email in my opinion is a joke. Then there is the fact of him getting his way on this. Saying this he has stated that he can handle this and all i need to do is email him

 

[Trojina]

​

Taking the translation from Hilary in WikiWing 11.3 says ;

'There is no level ground without a slope,
No going out without a return.
Constancy in hardship is not a mistake.
Do not sorrow about its truth.
In eating and drinking there is blessing.'​

It says 'constancy in hardship is not a mistake', it says there are always ups and downs. I'm curious as to why you would see this as

Dear Steve, STOP working with him, leave him! Nothing good will take place any more!
11.3<19 means forget it, do not insist on this partnership...

If I had 11.3 on an issue I would take it as a call to be philosophical about life's bumpy ride. There is blessing in eating and drinking suggests we need to 'carry on regardless', carry on with normal life however bumpy the road. Why do you see 11.3 as saying 'forget it' ?


Agreed the situation does not look good but there may be many reasons. The initial 12 I think does look like cause to give up but I'm not sure the following readings confirmed that. Difficult people can still do a very good job and I guess in the end Steve is only interested in whether he completes the task.

I mean I think you may be right and this may be the time to stop working with him but I don't see that 11.3 gives that amount of certainty ?

Steve said

Like I said in the past he has been very approachable and professional and to be honest

...and I feel 11.3 may suggest perhaps he will be so again.

If you stayed with your first reading of 12uc then you would just stop trying to get him to hear you and if that means you must part from him then so be it. The following readings made it look a bit more like a temporary disconnect.

I don't find this a terribly clear cut and dried thing so perhaps others will chime in with their views.

 

[steve]

Thats the question do I stop now or see if he pulls it off because I am happy to work via email if we are making money, but my gut is telling ,e it wont work however one sale could change that, so what i really want to know is do i keep going or stop? I could replace him thats not an issue.

 

[steve]

12 does say stop if it were a relationship question thats what the advice would be.

 

[Trojina]

Not necessarily ! In a long term relationship if one cast 12 one wouldn't always be able to just end things, it would just mean there was a disconnect at the time. I've had 12uc about close relatives but I don't end the relationship and years later we still have a relationship.

The decision is yours but personally I would lean towards seeing if he can complete the task.

Also if you are only going by the 12 why do the other casts.

 

[steve]

Ok well he is competent but i feel in the dark I will wait to see what he comes up with, before i chop his head off LOL
My intial feeling on 12 was to just stop and wait thats why i cast again coz i didnt get clarity. I am concerened how this work by email

Will post when something changes, thank you both so much

Steve

 

[Windrell]

Dear Trojina and dear Steve,

I have personal experience with 11.3<19, and I have been through everything that Steve describes in his case.

First of all, I know that it is difficult to accept negative answers. We, people, always hope!
Now I know that we DO NOT NEED HOPE, WE NEED DISCERNMENT AND DETERMINATION.
Having said that, back to our case:
11.3<19 comes up when a relationship seems like a "blessing". We, people, like to believe that a blessing will keep on forever...
Actually, you have dinner together, you communicate very well and you share opinions on "hardship".
It is amazing how accurately is I Ching's description!
BUT, there comes a critical moment, JUST OUT OF THE BLUE, when everything goes downhill, without any reason or explanation,-hex 11 is about smooth, low profile progress/change, and the hex 19:approaching,nearing of a new influence,- and all good turns to bad!
Especially when hex 12 came first about the relationship!
But we, people, keep up hoping...
I Ching seems to tell you:
Listen, the situation is blocked without any expectation of change- hex 12 is fixed.
Please, don't take it heavily: "do not sorrow about its truth". There has been a blessing and there will be a constant hardship. It's not because of a mistake, it's just Life...

 

[Trojina]

But an experience of yours with 11.3 does not mean that 11.3 means to fire this person. I once had 11.3 regarding the death of someone but it does not mean each time 11.3 shows up someone is going to die !

Yes things can change quickly with 11.3 but it just is not saying this

Dear Steve, STOP working with him, leave him! Nothing good will take place any more!
11.3<19 means forget it, do not insist on this partnership...

We do need to actually keep an eye on what the I Ching is saying which is this

'There is no level ground without a slope,
No going out without a return.
Constancy in hardship is not a mistake.
Do not sorrow about its truth.
In eating and drinking there is blessing.'

That just does not say "nothing good can take place any more" . People may die, people may leave, babies may be born, hurricanes can come, marriages happen, people have good moods and bad moods...this is all the flow of life and we must take a philosophical attitude to this, our state of existence at times. The idea of this line is not simply to say "nothing good can happen anymore"....

As I said earlier you may be right overall that this won't work but I feel 'nothing good can happen anymore' for 11.3 is a tad distant from what 11.3 says. I guess you are seeing the 12uc and the 11.3 together. Perhaps if he had not had 12uc to start with you would not have seen 11.3 this way ?

 

[Windrell]

Trojina, yes it is 12 fixed plus 11.3<19, together!
Your case with 11.3 and the death of someone -I don't know the whole story- reinforces my point:
Whatever used to be is turning upside down but without a melodramatic way, in easygoing way...
The severity of my interpretation comes from hex12 unchanging, because hex 12 IS STRICT AND HARD.

 

[Tim K]

Small correction, 17.1.4.6 leads to 20 Observing/View.

H12 comes from H33 and leads to H20, I think the obstruction is temporary, heaven and earth do not unite - loss of communication. But 11.3 promises that the 'link' will return.

What to do ? 17 follow/obey the circumstances, take a higher ground.

 

[Trojina]

Trojina, yes it is 12 fixed plus 11.3<19, together!
Your case with 11.3 and the death of someone -I don't know the whole story- reinforces my point:
Whatever used to be is turning upside down but without a melodramatic way, in easygoing way...
The severity of my interpretation comes from hex12 unchanging, because hex 12 IS STRICT AND HARD.

I don't think hexagram 12 always feels strict and hard or if it is it comes from a disconnect, people not connecting. That can be temporary. Some have said 12 can in it's own way be a restful time and I think there is some truth in that in the sense that it's time to stop giving something your best shot and just be with how it is, problems and all, for a while. Sometimes it might be time to split with a person but not always.

 

[Tim K]

Also can it be an advice to restore the 'view' as in face-to-face communication ? Skype or some other video-chat program?

 

[rosada]

I find it helpful to look at the sequence.
11. Peace leads to 12. Stagnation.
It's like being with a friend where you're in peaceful harmony and the conversation flows ...but finally you run out of things to say and it starts to feel Stagnant.
Does this mean you should abandon the friendship? Not necessarily. One possibility is that it means you need to find new things to talk about. In this case here it may mean the manager person doesn't recognize that anything more needs to be discussed for the moment.

 

[steve]

Hi Everyone
Thank you all for your imput its been very much appreciated, as things unfolded my US manager did come through with the goods. I think he feels he has a certain role and seems to be sticking to it. I was trying to make the call to him to give him training on some of the other products so he can actually close them. However in his mind or what he considers his job description that is not his job so he was sticking to what he knows. If a client requires more in depth info on certain products so he is just planning to pass this on to me. So i have been following up the bigger sales. As he doesnt have intricate knowledge of some products. Thats fine coz i can pay him less in hindsight. So yes Rosada thats exactly how he felt nothing at that time he felt nothing needed to be discussed and he prob was right however our communication was bad I had one idea and he had another. The next day after our mexican standoff he sent me a full report on the status.
Is interesting that you windrell have had that experience with 11.3 perhaps this line needs to be really looked at but to me the line is telling me change will happen so handle it. However some changes can be very dramatic so in a way i can see how you may see this as a bad omen. I may well have more issues with him in the future however he sees his role or job description as something and possibly i was trying to get more from him without asking him before hand, maybe he knew that what i was going to ask and i didnt know myself. So what he considers his job description he knows well.

A special thanks to trojina as i would have made a huge mistake firing him as he has found another calling agency to boot that requires no fees upfront.
I was pretty angry but i think it was more ego and ego with Yi is a big no no. It quite funny that he put me back in my place without it getting messy. So i can see 17.6 as having a much higher trust of his capabilities.

12 Unchanging - basicaly two people with two thing in their minds and not agreeing
17.1 - I thought was very accurate as it speaks about when the leader at times needs to step back ( for example my father was in vietnam as a captain and remember him saying that they relied allot on sargent's that at times had been there longer and more experienced and would take the lead).
17.4 I think reflects him not being a yes man and that yes men are not what u want in business
17.6 means to me in fact we could become closer and this leaves the things open for discussion of exact roles.
11.3 was telling that there is going to be ups and downs so be prepared for it. The next time we have a mexican stand off be aware of how he can be. So yes i do believe its a warning so i have a choice that if i dont want to deal with his attitude then i could cut ties now because he may coz me to feel like this but in this context it would be stupid because he makes the company money is intelligent and professional when dealing with clients. I was working in publishing years ago and one of the salesman did a pocket ring to the boss and apparently he was bad mouthing very badly to someone in a car LOL. It all came out in the office and I asked the boss why he didnt fire him and they were for exactly the same reasons i mentioned above.
The game I am in does not allow for me to fire people because my ego has been hurt and it wasnt done publicaly like the other scenario.
11.3 in some context i believe could warrant cutting ties but not here as it may coz serious pain in another situation that you may well want to avoid.

Now that i have updated the thread i would be interested to see how others see how it all unfolded

Thank you for your help i learned allot on a number of lines and 12 unchanging and not fly off the handle.

Steve

 

[steve]

I was just thinking that if you asked the question someone is hassling me again and received 11.3 then you may well want to cut ties.

 

[steve]

Sorry ashteroid yes very accurate interpretation right on in fact, i was ready to fire him I think some people in power have made the very mistake many times and not seen what someone can really offer them

 

[Trojina]

I was just thinking that if you asked the question someone is hassling me again and received 11.3 then you may well want to cut ties.

There are many ways for Yi to say 'cut ties' quite directly, 23.3 for example. 11.3 isn't telling you what to do one way or the other if you read the translation. However I've seen it come up often as a kind of consolation for loss. It's like it's saying 'mate, sometimes you win sometimes you lose, that's life, but keep on keeping on and enjoy the moment as it comes because what we are dealing with is the condition of human life'.* That will not always mean 'cut ties'. It might amount in certain situations for some people that they don't want more ups and downs in the situation so they might cut ties but that experience doesn't mean 11.3 will always mean that.

In general each line can work out, in life experiences, a thousand different ways, it's fluid, that is why it is written in imagery. Between all those experiences there will be a common element, a principle running through of course, but we cannot ever take one experience of ours and say 'it meant that for me one time so that is what it means for all time for everyone'. If we did that we would be confining the richness of meaning in the I Ching to our own limited awareness.

Here you asked 'should I work with him ?' 11.3 suggests ups and downs so as you say in future you if he irritates you you may think to yourself 'actually I'm through with him' but that will be your choice because you don't want to deal with people like that on a long term basis. However I have observed sometimes that people who are very good at what they do like space to do it and don't always stick to the niceties of interaction. On the other hand I have seen plenty who are all friendly and promise the earth in terms of service but don't actually come up with the goods and that is far more common.

It is always best to read the translation and apply it to your situation before reading commentaries as commentaries will generally always limit possible meanings, well it's unavoidable since the translation is like a poem, multi faceted in terms of possible meaning and the commentary in prose must be choosing a particular way to see it.


* Yi talking Australian as I think Steve is from Australia

 

[diamanda]

In my experience line 11.3 of course shows hardship, however "there is food".
Resulting 19 speaks about working on things to prevent future misfortune.
Good one Steve for not firing the manager!
Although I'd keep an eye on him as I wouldn't trust him 100% with this reading and also 12.

 

[Windrell]

Steve, on 21-2-2016 you started a thread "what do I need to know about my business this week?" and you got hex24, 1,6<23.
That week was over 28-2. The present thread/question was post on March the 1st, and you said that the problem with the manager had already happened.
Could you elaborate more please, on when exactly did it begin???
Thanks for your sharing!

 

[steve]

oh sure it would have been monday so the 29th I am in the phillipines if that makes a difference because it was the start of the week and I wanted to call him before business began in the US monday morning,

Steve

 

[Windrell]

oh sure it would have been monday so the 29th I am in the phillipines if that makes a difference because it was the start of the week and I wanted to call him before business began in the US monday morning,

Steve

Steve, I seems to me that the IChing answer, regarding the week up to 28-2-2016, describes the upcoming problem with that manager, maybe something had changed during that week...
I just noticed it, you will see how things unfold in the future, and you will draw your final conclusions.
I wish you the best luck,

 

[steve]

Yes I may well be back here especially as things grow the next time it could be an even bigger issue thanks heaps for your help

Steve

 

[steve]

Hi Everyone

Just an update, should have done this 3 weeks ago but been so so busy, it did turn out that the manager ended up doing nothing and i had finally had enough and fired him. 11.3 i believe can be a warning against repeated behaviour and whether or not you want to tolerate it. " Evil can be held in check but never abolished" The warning may have been ok this guy didnt work out be on the look out for these traits you dont like in the future. However at the time i did not have many options and was relying on him. So there was a kind of hope there. Saying this he responded the next day quite well but that was about it.
If the question was my wife has a friend and she causes trouble what should I do? or ,my husband goes to the pub too much what should I do? , then the answer maybe take the good with the bad but on business sense then maybe not, i believe it depends on if you can live with it. The line is a case of take the good with the bad and you win some you lose some.
Windrell did take into account some of the other readings so it seems you were right in this case, however "at the time" it didnt feel right to cut ties as i would have wondered if i did the right thing but now i know.

Steve

 

[steve]

I think the answer for me was in 17.4 as he was a smooth talker and 17.6 was not about him was about possibly someone else or finding the right person. The confusing part in all of this at a point he was great for the position.

Steve

 

[Windrell]

Thank you Steve for the update!
Yes, now YOU KNOW that cutting ties was the right thing to do.
One more note: the "cutting ties" solution applies to everyone, in my opinion, wife/husband/friend, etc...
"Evil can be held in check but NEVER abolished" means to me that we should be brave instead of hopeful....
My best wishes!:bows:

 

[Trojina]

Thank you Steve for the update!
Yes, now YOU KNOW that cutting ties was the right thing to do.
One more note: the "cutting ties" solution applies to everyone, in my opinion, wife/husband/friend, etc...
"Evil can be held in check but NEVER abolished" means to me that we should be brave instead of hopeful....
My best wishes!:bows:

It is absurd to say hexagram 12 always means 'cut ties' with everyone, I mean really absurd and irresponsible too if you give such advice to others. If you cast hexagram 12 about your mother would you cut ties with her because she is 'evil' ? If you cast hexagram 12 with regard to your children would you cut ties with them ? hexagram 12 does not mean 'cut ties' it means one is not interacting in a good or useful way at that time. It is harmful to tell others hexagram 12 just means 'cut ties' with anyone regardless of who they are, well it isn't even realistic. If you got hexagram 12 over your 7 year old son you wouldn't cut ties.

Eventually cutting ties may have been the right thing to do here in this case but certainly 12uc does not always simply mean 'cut ties'.