15.5 - 39

[peace]

When I read 15.5 it sounded "good". It said fortune. So why does it go to 39?
Can people please give me insight into this line?

Thanks,
Rosalie

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Rosalie
Sometimes the Yi authors used a couple of the line texts to clear up common misunderstandings about the general Gua theme. If you undestand Gua 15 in the usual sense of "Modesty" you get it way wrong. I translate it Authenticity instead, being uncompromisingly realistic, not falsely self-effacing.
In Line 5 it's saying that Qian is capable of firm and decisive action against an obstacle or a wrong.
Historically in old China there was an unwritten rule that in times of crisis you dropped all animosity and hostility and helped out your neighboring countries. This line refers to an incident where the neighbors stood by and watched the suffering, probably to improve its own position or in retribution. This established them as less than humane and worthy of disciplinary action or enforced change. I don't know if it was a particular incident. Maybe Freeman might want to suggest one.
But anyway, "Modestry" is allowed to make assumptions and take decisive action to turn things around to its own advantage.
b

 

[bruce]

interesting

 

[freemanc]

Bradford thank you for flipping me a fish!

Your remarks were, I think dead on, and also consistent with my sense of Modesty: be reticent about going to war; use other means; empires are built on *friendships* more than conquests.

<pre>
Not rich in (by means of your) neighbors.
Favorable to use this to invade. Attack.
Nothing not favorable.
</pre>

My sense of 15.5 for the modern reader is something like: build your local establishment of friends and workers before "plotting to take over the world." And that these short term outings are a Good Thing.

15.5 about a specific passage in the Zhou conquest? What a great question!! I really don't know.

I didn't talk about 39... but I have to dash---

fondly,
FC

 

[bradford_h]

The phrase "Wu Bu Li", nothing not worthwhile, nothing not advantageous, nothing not favorable, nothing (can)not be turned to advantage, occurs a lot in the Yi. Essentially it says that there is rarely a situation which cannot be turned around or improved. Of course it takes an opportunistic approach to things - it's enlightened self-interest which does this best. Sometimes one must presume that one knows what's best. And sometimes it's just like aikido, finding the center of things and turning the momentum around. When the Yi uses this phrase it seldom implies that things are going to turn around all on their own. One needs to own the moment.

 

[peace]

Thanks. It makes "Modesty" a more human hexagram for me.

Rosalie

 

[bradford_h]

I should add something about Li here.
Usually translated favorable, advantageous, worthwhile. This is not about luck or good fortune (this is Ji in Chinese, and also used lot in the Yi). The older and concurrent meaning of Li is Harvest. It's one of the clearest etymologies. It always implies a return on invested time and energy. The earth and life meet us halfway by groning the plants, but we still need to plow, sow, irrigate, weed and cut. It's still a good bargain. When you see it in the Yi it means that fortune must be met halfway by human action, but that it promises a profit on a true investment.

 

[hilary]

Oh... so if you are not rich in your neighbours, that means there's something wrong with the neighbours? I hadn't thought of that - thanks, Brad.

I've always liked this line as an example of Yi being fierce, not facilely 'moral' in a 'nice' way. LiSe describes it well, I think.

15's 39, authenticity having difficulties. In such times, the best results come from 'going southwest', looking for people who can work with you or support you. It also has to do with turning round and seeing things in a new way, so what's 'coming' can be different from what's 'going'. Perhaps this is connected with 15.5's invasion.

 

[peace]

Hilary -

I love this and answers what's going on for me.
Issues with authenticity and looking for support.
39 could me I need to see things from a different perspective - and I need help to do that, someone who knows the perspective I have and can help me shift it because they see it a different way.
Thanks.

Rosalie

 

[dobro p]

Brad -

"If you undestand Gua 15 in the usual sense of "Modesty" you get it way wrong. I translate it Authenticity instead, being uncompromisingly realistic, not falsely self-effacing."

These days, I'm getting mileage out of 'modest execution of plans and preparation' as a rendition of the meaning of 15. For me, 'modest' has always had the meaning you've given it here - realism about one's position in the universe and one's relationship with it and what one is truly capable of (in other words, a person who is modest is also grateful - the two go hand in hand). But by adding that 'execution of plans and preparations' bit, the concept becomes more than an attitude/demeanor toward life (it seems to me that 'modesty' and 'authenticity' are demeanors); it becomes attitude plus action.

Whatcha think?

 

[bradford_h]

Dobro
I don't know if the authors saw this, but I noticed long ago the difference in where the "center of energy" was between 15 and 16. 15 seemed to be more reticent, grounded or hanging back, but clearly ready to go forward out of necessity, and 16 more ready or eager to act or respond. Similarly, 31 is more eager to move towards trouble than its more conservative inverse 32.
But yes, Qian will act on its attitude, with an army if necessary. But unlike the US, it will fix the many problems at home first.

 

[dobro p]

Yeah, there's the enthusiasm of 16 and the 'modesty' of 15. Like you, I don't like the word 'modesty'- I like 'realistic understanding of one's limitations' better, but the closest we've got to that in English is 'modesty'.

One wonderful thing about the Yi is its range of situations - 'to everything there is a season' - sometimes enthusiastic preparation, sometimes modest carrying out of a project. No dumbing down into a 'white good, black bad' sort of thing; with the Yi it's always 'now's the time for black', or 'now's the time for white'.

 

[bradford_h]

Hi Dobro-

"Like you, I don't like the word 'modesty'- I like 'realistic understanding of one's limitations' better, but the closest we've got to that in English is 'modesty'. "

Oddly, though, outside of translating the Hexagram Name as Authenticity to clarify the subject matter, I found myself having to use the word Modestty to translate Qian in the lines devoted to clearing up misunderstandings about Modesty. Otherwise the effort at correction no longer made sense. So it had to be "Modestly crows the rooster", etc, to keep the intended irony alive.

 

[cavarose]

Thank you all for the wisdom in this nearly 15 year old thread!

I received 15.5 --> 39 on a query today about a collaborator relationship that's gone south and I'm contemplating if and how it can be mended. I'm dealing with a person who has a tendency to be very harsh to both customers and teammates. Their contributions are super valuable but the energetic cost of working with them had become too much and I consequently offered them a demotion in standing and duties until we can reach a new harmony.

I am wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to apply the wisdom in this situation.
Thanks much!

 

[cavarose]

Thank you all for the wisdom in this nearly 15 year old thread!

I received 15.5 --> 39 on a query today about a collaborator relationship that's gone south and I'm contemplating if and how it can be mended. I'm dealing with a person who has a tendency to be very harsh to both customers and teammates. Their contributions are super valuable but the energetic cost of working with them had become too much and I consequently offered them a demotion in standing and duties until we can reach a new harmony.

I am wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to apply the wisdom in this situation.
Thanks much!

Again, today I got this casting on a potential collaborator relationship. Yi is witty!

This time I asked Yi before inquiring with my friend about working with me. I see my growth in understanding Yi wisdom over the past 10 months. In this instance the lady is coming out of a horrid string of collaborations that did not appreciate her contributions. She shared these stories with me a week or so ago and I implored her to stand strong in her worth.

I have been meandering a lot looking for someone to help me get filming done and hadn't thought to ask her until just this morning. She too has a fiery personality like the person in my January inquiry but is more mature, generous and very good at what she does.

We are very fierce together and I think this will be a great way to funnel our collective energy.
Thank you again for this wellspring of wisdom!