16 to 7 says I can ask now.....

[yellowknife]

Hello!

I've been waiting to seek advice on this wise forum for a while. I've enjoyed very much the learning process of reading other answers, and witnessing the unfolding of conversations. There's something peaceful about the atmosphere here (despite the mini wars!)

I've just asked if its time to ask and I got 16 changing to 7- which, despite the slightly martial flavour sounds like there'll be positive help...

I've been involved in a situation which, it seems, inspires many first timers here to seek the advice of the Yi.

Please forgive the impending long explanation- if time's short, please skip to the nitty gritty at the end!

+++++++++++

I first met this man at a cabaret last year. I was performing poetry. He's a published poet who'd come to watch. We clicked and talked. Afterwards I held the image of him in my mind- and almost consciously decided to have him as a safe, at a distance, fantasy figure. I say safe, because I was just coming out of a five year relationship and knew I wouldn't be ready for a real connection for a while- and he was married. On my part it was about recognising someone who had qualities I should aspire to, and attract into my life eventually...

However...

In the November he asked a local poetry performance group if he could join them. To balance the genders out they decided to ask me to join at the same time. Bizarrely at the first meeting of the new line up, me and and the Poet took over the meeting by having a heated discussion about popularising poetry (he said my new ideas had all been done before...he's 17 years older than me and has been on the scene much longer)

I felt something odd was going on, but nevertheless when we next spoke properly the positive connection was still there...and over the next couple of months we became good allies in the poetry group and the fact of our disagreeing was something that was joked about and happened a couple more times, less intensely.

Then, our friendship seemed to grow- but within the bounds of propriety, I was aware he was married, has three children, and although his poetry seemed to give off a sense of emotional detachment from his wife, I was careful not to even flirt with him. One night in February though we ended up at a party after a gig and got talking. In depth for the first time. He told me about his past, first marriage, illness (he's bipolar but doesn't tell many people), and the fact that he hadn't slept with his wife for five years and she didn't like poets or poetry but saw no need to divorce. We stayed up all night, walked on the beach and walked arm in arm. In some ways I was in denial about what was happening- a bit of me thought it might still be friendship, because it was all unsaid.

Then over the next three weeks we wrote emails that acknowledged something was happening between us. We met up four times over that period and each time talked about poetry- and anything else for hours- until briefly talking about "us". We held hands a bit, but that was it. I found this all both stressful- and amazingly enlivening and my feelings for him grew and grew. I did feel though that he was on the verge of having to sort his life out- whether rekindling his marriage or breaking free. He agreed he needed to find out what his needs were, for the first time, and we thus agreed to have just a friendship. The day after we'd sent emails about this, we met up after a poetry reading. He said he'd arranged to have a proper conversation with his wife about what was happening between them. I said I was glad- and suggested he put off having dinner with me to "re negotiate his friendship" as we'd arranged, and concentrate on sorting his marriage out. Then we got talking about poetry- and suddenly we were back at the same point as in our first poetry argument- him saying my new ideas didn't acknowledge all that had gone before...and suddenly he walked off.

I was shocked- but thought it might really be about him not being able to deal with a friendship. We had a brief flurry of texts which ended with him saying he was going to leave the poetry group and not to text him again. Then I emailed the next day to say I hope we'd be able to meet as friends again even if it took a while..he replied, just about the poetry argument saying I'd been disrespectful and he felt our friendship was over. He did leave the group- telling them it was because we didn't agree. I was devastated and thought he'd dealt with things really badly and hurtfully. I could see there's been an ego clash- and I'd been a threat in more ways than one. I waited for ten days then emailed and pointed this out. He agreed and said we could be friends and not more.

I then heard he'd split from his wife. He confirmed this and said he was making changes "as I'd once said he should". I said I'd be there for him in any way I could. He pre empted what I didn't say (but do want) and replied that he wasn't going to "go there" at present as he was doing things for himself. I've seen him just once when he came in to where I work to do some recording for a poetry project I'd asked him to be involved with. We were together an hour- and true to form mentioned nothing at all about what had happened. He did read a poem though that he was in the middle of writing- about relationships and how he wasn't afraid of heights "just taking off and landing"- and in the context I took it as a subconscious or conscious message that he wasn't ready but might be eventually.

I thought we might bump into each other at more events since then, but we haven't. Almost missing each other with uncanny accuracy infact...

+++++++++++++

All clear really...the message to me is to stay away and let him sort himself out.
But because of the way he walked away, and because we're barely in touch, and because of my still strong feelings for him, I can't help still feeling in limbo (and wondering if I should move on if I'm interpreting positive signals self deludedly).

I asked...

Will we be together?

20 line 6 changing to 8

How can I ensure we do get together?

34 1,2,3,4,5 changing to 8

I took the 8 as meaning I should enquire about my motives...

Have I got the right attitude to ensure success in the relationship?

61
1,3,5 changing to 18

and finally I asked
Where are things at the moment between us?

61, 2 changing to 42.

Over the last couple of months I've followed I Ching advice which seems to have been about being receptive- apart from when I asked him to come in and do some recording because it seemed an approach would be okay at that point. In some ways the 34 changing lines seem to describe a process I've already travelled- but I wonder if it coming up now means I've to be proactive again....or wait?

Any advice, intuitions, thoughts, words, much much appreciated.

Blessings,
K.

 

[candid]

Hi and welcome, Wolverine.

That's quite a few questions. As mentioned elsewhere here recently, some of your answers may have been to steer and clarify or focus your questions or viewing perspective.

Will we be together? (See this from the highest vantage point, 20.6, and as a whole, 8.)

How can I ensure we do get together? (You can't force your way into this relationship 34. See this as a whole 8. Remember 20.)

Have I got the right attitude to ensure success in the relationship? (This depends on your inner stability. If your center of stability depends on your comrade, you will be tossed about emotionally. If you are well centered you draw to you those who are meant for you, 61.1,3,5. Working in this direction improves things, 18.)

Where are things at the moment between us? (He will hear the call from your inner truth and stability, and will naturally respond, 61.2. But its important to understand the difference between your inner (universal) truth and your secret design for him. Inner truth brings increase to both parties, 42.)

Note which questions were answered directly and which questions Yi tossed back to you with suggestions for adjusting your question or perspective. Understand that Yi teaches with each answer it provides, or has the potential to anyway. It is the purpose to bring greater understanding, not only in regards to our questions but to what is behind our questioning.

Overall, with a properly adjusted mindset, the readings imply optimism for this relationship.

C

 

[yellowknife]

Thanks Candid for your thoughts, and taking the time to interpret.

Inner truth is something I've been thinking about alot- and I've sometimes strayed from it.

Your words, and the reading has really made me think about Hexagram 8- and I wonder if you or anyone else looking in might be able to indicate if I'm on the right lines with my thoughts.

Both mine and the Poet's decision to join the performance group seem to have been very "8".
I wanted to join the group to encourage me to work with others- and also to make me feel I belonged somewhere, as at that point I was worried I had nothing much to "hold" me to the city I've lived in for a while.

The Poet said he wanted to enjoy himself- but actually it seems he was trying to unite some of his warring impulses- about performing versus not performing and popular poetry versus academic poetry. In some ways him being "a latecomer" meant that urge to unity didn't work though- he's more usually a leader than a follower and other warring impulses within him- about his marriage and life values- came to the fore. So he left the group.

I'd have to contemplate my own issues in this area carefully before being able to enter a relationship. What do I want to "hold to" and "unite with" and why...?

Does it sound as if I'm thinking in the right way about this one?

 

[yellowknife]

Heck,

without wanting to drivel on just to myself-

if anyone's reading this, out of interest I just thought I'd ask the question;

Will I gain recognition for my poetry?

Reading 61 because of the questions above re. the relationship had made me think about how similar that inner truth process is to the need to be true to one's own voice- which is just what I'm learning about writing poems.

As I pressed the computer reading generator button I was thinking about 61-

sure enough-my answer

61, 1 and 2 changing to 20!!

I already knew innerly!

 

[candid]

Don't ya love it when that happens? That alone indicates you're inner truth is working and very much on the right track.

What a beautiful answer to your question: 'Will I gain recognition?'

61.1 Secret designs disrupt the creative flow. Art is for it's own sake, independent of recognition or secret design.

61.2 Poetry which springs from inner truth calls to kindred spirits. Wilhelm's commentary on this line is so relevant to your question. I'm not sure if you have access to it, so I'll copy it here for you just in case you don't.

"This refers to the involuntary influence of a man's inner being on persons of kindred spirit. The crane need not show itself on a high hill. It may be quite hidden when it sounds its call; yet its young will hear its note, will recognize it and give answer. Where there's a joyous mood, there a comrade will appear to share a glass of wine.
This is the echo awakened in men through spiritual attraction. Whenever a feeling is voiced with truth and frankness, whenever a deed is the clear expression of sentiment, a mysterious and far-reaching influence is exerted. At first it acts on those who are inwardly receptive. But the circle grows larger and larger. The root of all influence lies in one's own inner being: given true and vigorous expression in word and deed, its effect is great. The effect is but the reflection of something that emanates from one's own heart. Any deliberate intention of an effect would only destroy the possibility of producing it. Kongfu (Confucius) says about this line:
The superior man abides in his room. If his words are well spoken, he meets with assent at a distance of more than a thousand miles. How much more then from near by! If the superior man abides in his room and his words are not well spoken, he meets with contradiction at a distance of more than a thousand miles. How much more then from near by! Words go forth from one's own person and exert their influence on men. Deeds are born close at hand and become visible far away. Words and deeds are the hinge and bowspring of the superior man. As hinge and bowspring move, they bring honor or disgrace. Through words and deeds the superior man moves heaven and earth. Must one not, then, be cautious?"

How beautiful this answer is!

Also, your points on 8 are salient.

Nice work!

 

[yellowknife]

Hooray and thank you!

The Wilhelm commentary is beautiful.

I'm going to carefully tread the path between having a secret design and growing into sounding my own true note that others will hear and respond to.

I'm beginning to learn the difference in my poetry- and hopefully I'm going to learn how to do that in and among the, often confusing, feelings and wants I have about my relationship life.

 

[candid]

Wolverine,

I say this half light-heartedly - its an artist's obligation to suffer. The unmet wants in an artist's life finds beauty through art. Such beauty could never be found in complete fulfillment of desires. It is often emptiness that births life's most meaningful expressions.

All the best to you.

 

[jte]

Wow, I think I just heard a crane calling ;-)

Wolverine - If your poet is truly going to get divorced he's definitely going to need quite a bit of sorting out time - don't underestimate the impact of and on three kids... just something to keep in mind...

- Jeff

 

[yellowknife]

Thanks Jeff. Good point and one I should know well.

Because the situation had seemed set to end in a very sensible, mature us agreeing to be friends way, but was then upturned at the last minute by our argument, I think I've been more impatient for hope and clarity than I otherwise would have been...

Having said that, I think he was well aware of my "secret design". While I was agreeing to back off and have us be friends, I was obviously at some level hoping to "capture" him emotionally before he was ready. I thought he was being unreasonable in walking away and creating disharmony- but I was probably being just as unreasonable, despite my surface sensibleness.

Candid- I hear and agree with your words about art emerging from suffering and emptiness. I've certainly developed writing wise as a result of the intense feelings of the last few months!

I wonder though if there's sometimes a danger of artistic types romanticising their suffering and denying themselves the opportunity to be congruent, whole people in case it affects their output.
It's the striving for wholeness that can produce great work
just as much, or more, than the denying of the possibility of wholeness, which some are drawn to instead...

maybe...

 

[candid]

Wolverine,

I hear and agree with your words about artistic types romanticizing their suffering, and that striving for wholeness can produce great works. But let me ask you, have you ever known or heard of anyone striving for wholeness who didn't suffer as a result? Striving for wholeness is not for the faint of heart or mind. Striving for wholeness is self-torture, for it is the self that will be denied in order to even steal a glimpse at wholeness.

No, it is the lazy and mediocre who escape the hard questions, the over-the-top passions, which ultimately lead to wholeness. The Buddha did not stumble on enlightenment at a tea party. Van Gough did not paint his masterpieces by following easy and established rules. Its doubtful you or I ever will either.

Passion leads to suffering, great passion to great suffering - but from such emerges life's truths first hand. By knowing these truths first hand one can migrate toward wholeness.

?The wild goose gradually draws near the clouds? heights.
Its feathers can be used for the sacred dance.
Good fortune.? 53.6

C

 

[yellowknife]

Hmmm.

Its good to be made to think about this.

I go to an encounter group once a week run on person centred, Rogerian lines and I am weekly inspired by how we're all peeling away layers and striving through some painful processes to find wholeness. Some other part of me though hits a wall of pain and thinks "this means something's gone wrong"...or even "I must have done something wrong otherwise I wouldn't be suffering" Then the self protectiveness kicks in...

As well as working through that for myself, I hope creative activity can also help other people want to start that process.

It might be that the people who escape the hard questions and over the top passions aren't just "lazy and mediocre"...but sort of unopened...and experiencing a song or a poem or a dance or a picture can open them.

I've been a stand up comic and my move into performance poetry's allowed me to feel less like I was being lazy and mediocre in the way I made people laugh than I am now. Since I changed a year ago I've got much, much better responses from audiences- I think they can tell I'm being more "real" and saying something I want to say.
(the calling crane again)

This afternoon though someone's just advised me not to book a particular comic for a gig I'm running saying "He's just a clown, light entertainment...he doesn't make people think".

Part of me's thinking "Oh no, it sounds like what I used to be like on stage..he needs to grow and develop". And another bit's thinking "How patronising I am..maybe what looks like staying on the surface is part of his journey toward wholeness by being playful and scatological and evoking a joyful response from an audience".

Easy questions on the road to hard questions...

Thanks Candid for raising these issues at a very timely moment...

 

[candid]

Wolverine,

I enjoy how you challenge and process within this conversation.

What you describe is exactly the kind of suffering I'm talking about, not the self pitying, woe is me type of thing, although a searching life has to pass through those gates as well to some degree. You are reflecting, digging and mining for meaning. You're attending workshops to gain further understanding, not just academically but experientially. You want to know, and you are passionate about it. You reflect on your past and wince at what you see. You are neither lazy nor mediocre. You assume responsibility for your feelings and actions, rather than projecting these things onto others. Even your original post laid no blame on your poet friend. This takes clarity and courage.

Admiringly,

Candid

 

[yellowknife]

Oh, thank you so much!

It feels wonderful for someone to say that. I hope my ongoing reflecting is about gaining understanding- though it's a constant checking process- so many pitfalls!

The one I worry about most is unconsciousness. When I was little, really little, maybe four or five, I was fascinated by the scene in the Wizard of Oz where Dorothy and her companions fall asleep in the poppy fields. I used to think, really determinedly "I wouldn't fall to sleep, I'd fight it because sleep is something you can fight". It felt significant then and still does now- I think as a metaphor for how easy I'd find it to lose consciousness- and stop digging. I have done for some periods- its as if its easier to forget. But I hope I won't forget again. Things like my encounter group, writing and wonderful conversations like this one should ensure it.

Last night I was thinking that I do trust the process. Then I thought "That really means that I trust myself", which felt good...

And....
today my Poet suddenly got in touch by email to wish me luck for a gig I'm doing tomorrow.
It was the warmest contact I've had from him for ages. The advice here about the pitfalls of 61, 1 and 3, not to mention 34, has immediately been valuable.

Take care Candid. I'm inspired by how much of yourself you give to others here.

 

[candid]

I'm very appreciative that you would say so, thank you.

BTW, that's haunting scene indeed in the Wizard. Its stuck with me too after 50 some years. Its so tempting sometimes to just... fall ... asleep. But then we'd probably have to start all over again from scratch upon awakening. Bummer! Its interesting that even the Dali Lama must relearn all the schools of Buddhism with each incarnation. Talk about compassion!