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17 vs 2

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I got a 17.4 for an answer to a question today, so I was looking intently at 17. From what I have 17 appears to be about following or adapting to the situation. I have come to think of 2 as be responsive or go with the flow. Looking at it this way, the two seem very similar. Can anyone shed some light on 17 and how it differs from 2???
 

bradford_h

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Hi Seeker-
I think the Yi distinguishes between kinds of Following and never really recommends a purely passive kind. I like to think of the best kind as a hunter following his prey (PETA leave me alone, it's a metaphor), following clues and signs and tracks and using his wits. Not the kind of following where the witless are following a leader.
The image is thunder in the lake, following the pulse, the rhythm of the world.
 

lightofdarkness

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From a universal IC focus:

17 deals more with establishing a 'new' following; finding something to believe in etc.

Its skeletal form is described by analogy to hexagram 12 where there is a focus on defending a faith over all others and in that defence firming one's belief - the generic quality therefore is on a establishing a 'particular' to follow/defend etc.

02 covers outright devotion in another/others as it does reflect the potentials of all hexagrams, IOW 'in' 02 is 17 as a potential; actualisation is in the 'yang-ing' of lines 1, 4, & 5.

The skeletal form of 02 is 27 - the archetype representations of skeletal form! ;-)

If you order the hexagrams into binary order from 000000 to 111111 so hexagram 02 is the realm of potentials, all the rest are actualisations of those potentials.

The trigrams for 17 are of lake (top) in a context of thunder (bottom) - since the focus in the hexagrams is from bottom to top, from context to text etc, so the interpretation is with the new, the moment of enlightenment follows intensity in expression - the joyous, enraptured.

From perspective of lake so there is a sense of being 'besotted' and so the 'instinctive' following ;-)

With the focus on lines 1, 4, and 5 so we are seeing a mix of qualities of hexes 24, 16, and 8.

24 = 'return' to the true path
16 = enthusism, planning, foreseeing the future
08 = passive attraction, you are attracted to someone/something 'high' (as in spirit/leader/idea) and so you go to them, they do not come to you.

Sum these qualities and you get the 'vibe' of 17 - reinforced with the 'vibe' of 12 that shares 16 and 08 with 17, but adds 23 (yang top line) - a focus on pruning, bringing out the 'true' faith, removing all of the accumulated 'rubbish'.

If you want to get really 'universal' then:

in the realm of emotions we have love in a context of surprise.

Even more generic we have expansive bonding (sharing space with another/others) in a context of expansive binding (sharing time with another/others)

Chris.
 

dobro p

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Hex 2's of a different order than Hex 17. It's EVEN MORE archetypal than 17 lol.

Not only that, but 17 has some idea of what it's following. But 2 doesn't; 2's taking it's cues from the moment - the mare that responds to the stallion. Gee, that sounds corny. But if you were watching horses in action, it wouldn't be corny, it would be better than Discovery Channel.

2 doesn't know what's going on, except for its instant and genuine response. 17 has a very clear idea of what it's following. 2's responsive; 17's obedient.
 
S

seeker

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Bradford, so in the context of a relationship that is defunct and one person does not respond to overtures of reconciliation, would the clue to follow be the person is not interested and move on? BTW, is your site down, I have a link to the online interpretation and it keeps saying page not found.

By the same token Chris, would following the new, finding something to believe in, refer to moving on to another phase of life, to new experiences?

17 has always been tricky for me because of the imagery. The thunder in the lake, for me, conjures up images of a great rumbling vibration disturbing the calm tranquility of the lake, though Wilhelm describes the thunder being at rest, which seems more like something brewing under the surface. Karchers interpretation says follow the path of least resistance, let go of the past. This sounds like not so much following a person, but following a way. And Wilhelms translation seems like the Taoist idea of Wu Wei.
 

lightofdarkness

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lake in thunder. bottom trigram is the general, the context, in which, out of which, operates the top and so text. IOW the bounds of meaning are set by the context, the originating line etc. Thus the context is to cover the generic senses of beginnings, new, sudden, enlightening moments, etc etc. WITHIN that context is lake in upper position and so a focus on intensity in expression.

17 shares space with 25 - the difference being in the conditional nature of 25 as compared to the unconditional nature of 17. (25 expresses one standing up and expressing one's belief clearly and without fear or consideration of consequences; there is a competitive aspect. As such it reflects a focus on disentanglment from social ties etc to 'say one's piece'. 17 has a cooperative aspect of the same general vibe of something 'new' etc and that can include a moment of 'enlightenment' and all that follows.

AS to 17 being a reply to a traditional method of derivation - no idea; there is no guarantee that what is derived is the best fit for the situation.

I am re-doing the questions site but you can try it out:

http://www.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/proact.html

Ensure you consider/answer all six questions prior to pressing either of the submit buttons - then tell us what you got.

Chris.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Seeker-
17.4 warns about Goal or Success orientation in following. What is recommended is to follow your own true path. That's a fairly literal interpretation of the Chinese text.
The link you have is obsolete. I completely redid my site and all of my Yijing files. The online translation is gone now, replaced by a big, download only, PDF file with a 390 page translation with commentary. The translator's manual is in PDF too, so everyone can finally see the Chinese characters alongside the English.
 

hilary

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Building on Freeman's very clear, incisive ideas on #2, I think it has to do with looking for a way in which your full potential can be developed and put to use. 'Following' is a far more fruitful way to realise this 'direction to go' than taking the initiative. It might mean finding a mentor or guide; it might sometimes mean finding a cause, I think. (So I think 2 probably does know what's going on overall, though it relinquishes control of how it happens. The noble one doesn't have a route map, but does have a direction to go.)

I agree with Brad that 17 follows cues and clues from moment to moment. It can be a feeling of being guided, from one synchronicity to the next. The Zagua says it's 'without previous causes' - not following a plan or following precedent, then. (Hence, perhaps, detaching from the past, and the feeling of wei wu wei.)

But in the moving lines, following definitely comes to mean pursuit. I think 17,4 specifically advises against treating the relationship as a hunt.

One for Brad, and other senior Yi-ist(e)s: where does 17 lie, between following the signs given to you, and chasing after what you lack?
 
S

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So is it making the journey without regard to the destination???
 

lightofdarkness

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A summary of 17s full spectrum using the IC as a source of analogies:

Note, for example, how this hexagram (17) 'starts' through behaviours analogous to characteristics of 45 - congregating to celebrate some faith etc.

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 17
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 45
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 58
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 47
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 49
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 31
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 43
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 28
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 3
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 8
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 60
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 29
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 63
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 39
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 5
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 48
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 51
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 16
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 54
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 40
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 55
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 62
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 34
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 32
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 24
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 2
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 19
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 7
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 36
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 15
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 11
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 46
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 25
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 12
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 10
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 6
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 13
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 33
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 1
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 44
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 42
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 20
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 61
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 59
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 37
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 53
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 9
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 57
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 21
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 35
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 38
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 64
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 30
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 56
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 14
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 50
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 27
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 23
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 41
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 4
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 22
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 52
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 26
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 18
 

bradford_h

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Hi Hilary
RE: where does 17 lie, between following the signs given to you, and chasing after what you lack?

Following the signs, first of all to fulfill what you lack. When hungry, eat. Was the psychology of Abraham Maslow ever popular in your country? First needs first?

Seeker

So is it making the journey without regard to the destination???

Except on walkabout, very few journeys would be taken without regard to a destination. It's just that so many forget to pay attention to anything not obviously related to the destination. Then their lives are only rehearsals.
 

dobro p

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Hilary

"where does 17 lie, between following the signs given to you, and chasing after what you lack?"

I always thought that 17 was informed more by a kind of obedience to a worthwile lead/guide/goal than by any chasing after something. (Which is why 17.4 doesn't augur well - the motivation's wrong - real following's got twisted somehow in the desire and the chase.)
 
S

seeker

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Found this posted by Lise on I Ching Resources:

"And what about hex.17? It is following without any resistance. So I let go all resistance, without trying to figure out what I have to follow. And what moves in instead is a kind of holistic feeling, not being me, as a separate person, any more. Follow the vibrations of the universe! That?s it!"

Thats kind of what I was trying to say with the comparison to the idea of wu wei and what I said about the journey more than the destination. So maybe the idea here is to follow the path without expectation of reaching the goal, just trust that you will get where you need to be??? I continue my search for the meaning of this hex, but I think I got some clarification of the reading itself. I asked what I should do and got 47 to 59, which I think is a clear indication to move on. Asked where do I go from here, 10 unchanging, take things one step at a time. What does the next month look like for me romantically? 46.4, which is far more promising. Perhaps the idea of 17.4. at least in the context of my question, is that I cant find the right path if I am following the wrong one. I achieve the more auspicious state of 46 through 17, ie letting go of the past, not chasing after something that is already gone. Then I can be open to the better path.
 
S

seeker

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Also found this at a site http://www.dreamhawk.com/iching02.htm#Hex17

Sui (Pro: Sway) - Following

Following the movement of events like a good dancer leads to abundant reward.

Yield to the direction of the situation. Like the dancer, move when there is movement, be still when there is need to pause. Thus pursue the signs showing what the times require, while remaining in harmony within yourself.

Do not follow what is inferior in this situation, but try to be aware of what is the leading trend. Be patient until you can clearly see signs of where events are leading, and move in that direction.

This involves a period where a powerful new condition is emerging and it is wise to observe and understand it. If this can be done very great reward will follow, especially if your personal direction embodies what is pressing into the world scene. If this is done, then you are in the position of leadership being followed by others recognising your harmony with the needs of the times.

Such leadership is possible, but only if you have first learnt to be a good follower.

Because the scene is set, all it needs is a catalyst to start the process moving. Done correctly this requires little effort. Something new is emerging from influences in the past. Help it to be born.

Key words: Learning to follow helps to become a leader and find integration with others and the times.

The Moving Lines
1. The new order emerging calls for changes to be made which lead to greater contact with those outside ones usual circle and influence. Success is then certain.

2. Following childish impulses you can lose the way you would have taken as an adult. The superior is rejected and one becomes a follower of the lower order or outdated needs.

3. Giving up childishness you follow the mature direction. This assures success. It is time to move into the new world of enlarged responsibility and power. The past dies.

4. Be sure you are not being influenced by ulterior or inferior motives. Being followed by those seeking only personal gain is not useful. Stop and return to your own integrity. No harm can then enter this enquiry.

5. Having confidence in the people or convictions we allow to lead us assures good fortune. This brings strength of purpose and unity. The way ahead is full of blessings.

6. A turning point comes from being truly understood and respected. Emerge now from the retreat. You have much support from those who follow.

Just from this interpretation this looks like a pretty good site. Could someone with more experience than I have check it out and let me know what you think?
 

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