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21.5

dobro p

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In 21.5, you're working your way through the obstacle and you come across something valuable. Well, that's gotta be good, right? But the text then says: "zhen1 li4", which might be rendered as "perservering in this is dangerous" (or, if you take Brad's idea, "persevering in this is difficult and troublesome").

Okay, why is this dangerous? Speculate. Y'all just LOVE to speculate, I know. Does the situation involve danger, or does it involve trouble and difficulty? I'm leaning toward the latter, meaning-wise. And possibly existentially, since I'm asking you guys lol.
 

willowfox

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The line suggests that one has a job that must be done, that you have a responsibility to complete it, and therefore that responsibility to achieve whatever puts one at risk of making a potential mistake. So the line is warning you to watch your step.
 

dobro p

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Yeah I agree with all of that and understand that (if the word is translated as 'danger'). But WHY is there danger? Why this line, 21.5, and not *every* line in the Yi? I mean, potential mistakes are almost always a possibility, right? So why is a particular warning attached to this line? What makes this situation so susceptible to potential mistakes?
 
M

meng

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Good question.

I think the idea, or one of them, is that it would be easier at this point to get lazy and sloppy, which would be detrimental to accomplishing what you set out to accomplish.

edit: Just realized, that's pretty much what Wf said.
 

cesca

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I think the idea is to bite down, but not too hard or suddenly. Suss out exactly what’s needed, apply just enough bite to let it resolve itself (the FanYao is 25.5: do not take medicine).

There’s a danger of going over the top, using a hammer to crack a nut and getting shards of shell in your almond butter.

Cesca
 

mudpie

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Being just, and executing judgemnt can be quite dangerous, esp if there is a lot riding on the decision.

to me the gold indicates two things: one, you have come across a crucial deciding factor, or evidence perhaps ( in legal trial) , which has brought the situation to very fine point.
And two: The justice has to be exquisitely fair and impartial - the golden mean- decided with firm precision based on the facts. even if it meant a lot of people may not agree, could even revolt.

in the Oj Simpson case, the defense bit though some tough material. but they found gold -the glove that didnt fit Oj's Hand-- now a judgement had to be made very carefully , because the general feeling was that he was guilty.

when the jury bit down into their deliberations, there was that gold..........they were under pressure to be impartial, to find the golden mean in this process. But the appearance of the misfit glove actually Became the deciding factor. It was as if the jury had no choice after that, but to say 'not guity'. It was dangerous because they knew a killer might well go free. But by law, they had to include that evidence.

another scenario would be like someone trying to save a difficult marriage (21)and then finding out his wife is cheating on him(line5). Suddenly , it's not so simple. Now he has to make a decision about this marriage based on what's come to light. What's the fair and just thing to do? preserve his dignity and divorce, or swallow his pride for the kids and hope the infidelity passes? Line 5 says you get awarded the golden arrow- you commit to doing what needs to be done, even though it can't be a win-win. But as long as you are alert to the danger, you will come out okay.
 

dobro p

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Why any line has the text that it has?

Well, sometimes it's kind of obvious, I think. For example, you sort of expect 14.5 and 14.6 to be pretty positive because of the nature of the hexagram combined with their position in it, right? Another example: it's no surprise at all that 7.2 is more auspicious than 7.3, right? And with a line like 39.6, you expect it to be good because it morphs the situation into the more auspicious Hex 53, not to mention the fact that the fan yao, 53.6, is really sweet. And you just KNOW that 44.1's gonna be problematic even before you read the actual text - it's that sneaky little single yin right at the bottom of the whole insinuating, seductive hexagram. Sometimes you can understand why a line has the value it has. But in this case, 21.5 isn't obvious to me. So I asked to see if anybody else understands it better than me. But I guess you don't lol. :D
 

dobro p

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Listener, thanks for that post. You came closest to shedding some light on it for me. But in the end, the situation the Yi was pointing at provided me with a bit of an answer: I saw the obstacle that was involved, I saw the gold that I'd come across, and in this case, it wasn't danger that was involved, but a long, arduous grind in terms of work that now needs to be done. So I think that for 21.5, li4 isn't best rendered as 'danger', but as something in the 'difficult/arduous/griding/troubling quadrant of meanings. Which is where Brad put the emphasis to begin with. (Also, there are 27 instances of li4 in the Yi, so I now have to go through and decide if each one is 'danger' or 'arduousness'. Another grind lol.)
 

dobro p

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Gee, this word's a poser. I drew 24.3 this morning, and the incessant/repeated returning could be either 'danger' or 'tedious trouble'. Hmm... The same term crops up in the fan yao, 36.3. Hmm... the possibility of injury in 36 would suggest danger rather than mere arduousness. I think for 24.3, I'm going with danger. But for 21.5, I think it's more along the lines of 'arduous'.

Thoughts?
 
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jesed

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Hi Dobro

I'm sorry you havent' be able to see where I was pointing to, even with a little sarcasm. Let me be more clear

If you ask "why" some line has some text attached to it; you are assuming that there exist a systemic rationality that guides the way the authors attached the text to the lines. This old assumption has never been probed. Even more, serious studies (not mere subjective speculations) tend to argue the other way around. That's why Steve Marshall and others came to conclusion that the process to compose the Zhou Yi text was the mixture of old records of omens and popular wisdom.

If I can remember, Bradford also made some statistical study, that shows there are no systematic rules to derivate why some text is attached to one line instead of another

Of course, there has been great efforts in the other direction: to probe there is a "ratio" behind the decision to attach certain text to certain line. The biggest and oldest of this attepms come from the confucionist school. And this was the sarcastic element of my comment. Because you claim all the time that you want to get rid from confucionist elements of the Yijing; but you need them to argue your case here.

Thats why, in your own comment, you needed to use one favorite confucionist hemeneutic: the "position" of the line within the hexagram.
For example, you sort of expect 14.5 and 14.6 to be pretty positive because of the nature of the hexagram combined with their position in it, right?
Remember, the "position" of the lines is not part of the Zhou Yi, but the Wings; wich you claim to discard; don't you?

Another example: it's no surprise at all that 7.2 is more auspicious than 7.3, right?
Why? Because line 2 is central and line 3 is transitional? That is not Zhou Yi but, again, confucionist and neo-confucionist hermeneutics.

And with a line like 39.6, you expect it to be good because it morphs the situation into the more auspicious Hex 53, not to mention the fact that the fan yao, 53.6, is really sweet.
Really??? Then why some times you have good hexagram and good line, morphing the situation into bad hexagram? Or the other way around: bad line wich leads to better hexagram. Some time ago, you asked about this yourself. You see this as a contradiction; but it is only a mystery if you assume that there is ONE SYSTEMC RATIONALITY behind.

And you just KNOW that 44.1's gonna be problematic even before you read the actual text - it's that sneaky little single yin right at the bottom of the whole insinuating, seductive hexagram.
In the first place, yin/yang as "nature" of the lines is a terminology that doesn't belongs to the Zhou Yi; neither to the Yijing. In the Yijing, the lines are soft or firm.
Second.- Why it is "obvious" that a single yin (sic) at the bottom of a seductive hexagram has to be problematic? It is not obvious at all, unless you accept the hermeneutic of the nature (soft/firm) and position (initial/central/uptop plus it's correspondences).
So, are you accepting now confucionist hermeutics; or just taking what support your own ideas?

So I asked to see if anybody else understands it better than me. But I guess you don't lol. :D
Well.. if your ego really needed to make this statement, I have not problem at all. But its funny to read this coming from the mayor anti-ego preacher around the forum. At least, I DO recognize that I have an ego.. and don't attempt (neither suggest to others) to be "pure" from it.

Best wishes, my converted confucionist :D

PS
Now, if you are ready to accept confucionist hermeneutics (position):
Line 5 of hexagram 21 is the top line of the upper nuclear trigram (lines 3-4-5): WATER wich is traditionaly understood as DANGER (oh, surprising discovering).
 
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dobro p

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Now, if you are ready to accept confucionist hermeneutics (position):
Line 5 of hexagram 21 is the top line of the upper nuclear trigram (lines 3-4-5): WATER wich is traditionaly understood as DANGER (oh, surprising discovering).

Thanks, I think that might be it. I'd forgotten that.

As for your long-winded attempt to paint me in Confucian colors: I was basing my comments on the fact that position 2, 5 and 6 *is* often auspicious - it's an observation that anybody will notice if they use the Yi a lot. I don't know if it came from the Confucians; I doubt it, because I think it was there before the Confucians and that they tried to erect a whole logical, rational philosophy around it. I don't think you can do that, and if I read your comments right, you don't think so either.

As for the rest of your rather unpleasant post: why the ill-will? I don't owe you any money, do I?

This bit was a joke: "So I asked to see if anybody else understands it better than me. But I guess you don't lol." and an attempt to prod somebody into responding. It worked with you. Thanks again.
 
J

jesed

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I was basing my comments on the fact that position 2, 5 and 6 *is* often auspicious - it's an observation that anybody will notice if they use the Yi a lot.
Again, see Bradford work about this.

Based on statistical data, there is no enough evidence to say that the position of the lines influences it's auspicious/unauspicious text attached. This is more clear in line 6, where some would said that most of cases this line is a warning; for example. Lines 2 and 5 seems to be more suitables for this argument; but what do you do with position in line 3 (one of your examples)?

Anyway, you haven't adreessed the main point from my first comment:
1.- do you believe there is a systemic rationality behind the work to attach some text to some line? Ergo, is there a "WHY" (reason) for one certain line to have one certain text?

Best

BTW.. forgive my bad english; but I don't understand the expression "ill-will" What does it means?
 

Sparhawk

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BTW.. forgive my bad english; but I don't understand the expression "ill-will" What does it means?

Ill-will = "mala disposición" o "mala voluntad" La pregunta es ¿por qué te enojaste?
 

dobro p

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Based on statistical data, there is no enough evidence to say that the position of the lines influences it's auspicious/unauspicious text attached.?

But based on my experience of many line 2's and line 5's, I *can* and *do* say that it's often an auspicious line.

This is more clear in line 6, where some would said that most of cases this line is a warning; for example.

I started a whole thread about line 6, and whether it represented a warning, or a very auspicious omen. It's seldom neutral, like 58.6. It's more often either auspicious, like 14.6, or a warning, like 24.6. Not always auspicious, but often auspicious.

Lines 2 and 5 seems to be more suitables for this argument; but what do you do with position in line 3 (one of your examples)?

Line 3 and line 4 seem to be transitional lines, (yes, this is an idea that the Confucianists use, but I think they got it from the same sort of study of the Yi that I've done), and I find that it's more often a problematic omen than a positive omen. Not always, but often.

Anyway, you haven't adreessed the main point from my first comment:
1.- do you believe there is a systemic rationality behind the work to attach some text to some line?

A systematic rationale? No. But is there a TENDENCY to have lines 2 and 5 auspicious? Yes.

Ergo, is there a "WHY" (reason) for one certain line to have one certain text?

Well, yeah, I think so. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the guys who put the Yi together thought that lines 2 and 5 were 'good' positions. I don't know why they thought that, but I think it suggests that they thought in terms of trigrams and that the 'heart' of the trigram was thought to be a position of balance or essence, and was therefore auspicious. I don't know this; I suspect this.

BTW.. forgive my bad english

I don't care about English with mistakes in as long as I can understand the meaning.
 
J

jesed

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So

You don't believe there is a systematic rationale behind the work to attach some text to some line, and therefore you do believe that there is a "WHY" (reason) for one certain line to have one certain text..... :confused:

I can't go any further with this logic.

Best
 

dobro p

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So

You don't believe there is a systematic rationale behind the work to attach some text to some line, and therefore you do believe that there is a "WHY" (reason) for one certain line to have one certain text..... :confused:

I can't go any further with this logic.

Best

Perhaps that's because you didn't understand what I was saying, which was this: I don't believe that there is a comprehensive system behind the the meanings in the Yi (because there are too many exceptions to the general patterns one can see in it); but it's obvious that there *are* general patterns and tendencies. What's so hard to understand about that?
 

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