Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
...
There's a large fruit still uneaten.
The superior man receives a carriage.
The house of the inferior man is split apart.
... The uneaten fruit looks like a sacred fruit not meant to be eaten.
...
... new beginnings, changes or chances. Maybe about things we have not control at the way they evolved but we have a choice of how to embrace them.
... If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved...
María:Hi Charly,
You used the word “temptation” ... initially I reject it but then it came again in front of me and agreed to accept it without second thought. Seems as an event that inevitably will happen in the future.
Maybe the bitter lemons , Meng said, are already in my kitchen and I have to act as a noble man and make that lemon-aid or don’t use it and left them rot.
... What an interesting line !!...
Meng:
I have read Brad years ago, I go to refresh it.
About the last concept I'm not so sure:
For ancient chinese HOME is the ancestor's shrine. If stripped your hut you become without home, but also without GOD and without FAMILY, maybe worse than paying yourself your own faults.
Don't you agree?
Yours,
Charly
I don't know about these early traditions. You pose an interesting existential question, though. I think the idea of the hut is the body, so the question becomes: what is left when the body is no more? ...
...The same happens to that fruit. Isn’t it ? ...
If gentlemen are rewarded, why only little people's hut is stripped? The question about what is left is only for little people? Maybe only they are bodily punished.
María:... I try to google it,after reading your note, but with no luck.
María:
Sacred Text has the bilingual greeck - english version of Marion Cox (1925) at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/usappho/sph00.htm
yours,
Charly
María:... I try to google it,after reading your note, but with no luck.
... Fragment 105a is a familiar, but instructive verse that typifies Sappho's treatment of the marriage ceremony.
All alone a sweet apple reddens on the topmost branch,
high on the highest branch, the apple pickers did not notice it,
they did not truly forget it, but they could not reach it. (Fr. 105)
... The sexual image of the bride in this poem is also evident. Apples are symbols for breasts and sexuality; the use of the verb usually has blood and blushing connotations; and a sweet apple symbolizes the sweet temperament of a wife. Winkler expands the simile's meaning, which, for him, also goes beyond just describing a sexual woman: "the vocabulary and phrasing ... contain a delicate and reverential attitude to the elusive presence and-absence of women in the world of men." He goes on to point out that not only is this something men had never expressed in poetry before, but it is also something men would not understand. Sappho is not describing the physical aspects of the bride's sexuality (breasts, etc.); she is illustrating the emotional sensuality of the bride (maturity, growth in womanhood). Male poets would traditionally focus on the physical lust and desire aroused in themselves by women. Instead, this fragment explores something only a woman would truly have been able to vocalize...
Meng:... fire in the bible usually means trials and tests....
... Every woman wants to be a legend, like Helen of Troy;from:
and everyman wants to believe that he could win such a woman,
even at the risk of all ...
Troy 16: Helen is Every Woman
by CTCWeb Editors
at: http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/consortium/troy16.html
Exposed fruits also mean trials and tests:
Meng:Yup. Sometimes I've wondered if Lao Tzu was wise or just a coward. Or if they're the same thing.
«The Spirit of the Valley doesn't die.Lao
It's called the Mysterious Mother»
Jilt:line six is that what is left over after illusion has fallen away ...
碩果不食.君子得輿.小人剝廬.
A large fruit is not eaten.
The junzi obtains a carriage.
The xiaoren cuts the radish.
From: Cutting through hexagram 23 by Harmen Mesker
at: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity/
Conclusion
The contexts for which these line texts are meant are not explicitly indicated, as is so often the case with the Yijing. But there is a practice which is often mentioned in the Yijing and which could have a connection with hexagram 23: the practice of ancestor worship. We know that the ancestors often received copious offerings with all kinds of food - meat, fish, vegetables, fruit. The preparation of the food was also part of the ritual. Imagine that during the cutting of the food you would wound yourself: a bad omen: misfortune! At the third line it is going okay, so 'no mistake'. At the sixth line the meaning of the text is also symbolic: a large fruit will have to be cut before it can be eaten. In the same text, as well as in other instances in the Yijing, the junzi is mentioned against the xiaoren. The junzi has transport and does not have to work, the hard labour passes him by. The xiaoren, the common people have to do the hard work. Both have there function and use, and for the right execution of the ritual both will have to take their proper position. That is how the high is connected with the low.
From: Cutting through hexagram 23 by Harmen Mesker
at: http://i-tjingcentrum.nl/serendipity
Jilt:
Do you mean that the uneaten fruit is only a residual illusion?
There is not really fuit for us?
Before getting inconsolable, I must refer you to a new study at Harmen Mesker page. There, after learned filological considerations, Harmen arrives to the following translation of 23.6:
I encourage anyone interested in H.23 to read the whole article, I myself have not read it whit the owed attention and I still don't know if it can affect our juicy speculations.
Yours,
Charly
Well, perhaps you strip it a bit to much Charly, perhaps I made it a bit to much in dried bones.
What I consider as the bottomline for 23: there is a tree with fruits. tree gets destroyed, but only one fruit remains. The fruit-flesh is attractive af course, but what counts are the seeds. That is the logos that pulls the whole image.
... Of course there can be connections with ancestor-worship, or any worshipping that has gone to far. There is nothing ancient about that, and nothing "only about ancestor-worship"... Even in our language we use the word "victim" in a casual way, sombody that has been sacrified because we use a certain sytem, e.g. a traffic-sytem. But when you start to observe those "systems" you observe offerings, sacrifices and imagebuilding, accompanied by policies to maintain the order....
But the seeds need the fruit-flesh for their own developpment. Also the tree counts, at least while fruits and seeds need it. All under the sky counts, the useless tree inclusive. Nothing prescindible.The fruit-flesh is attractive ... but what counts are the seeds.
Yup. Sometimes I've wondered if Lao Tzu was wise or just a coward. Or if they're the same thing.
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).