24.2,5 > 60 - Family tendencies

[em ching]

I asked the I Ching why it is that so many of the members of my immediate family - especially on my mum's side - aunts, grandmother, parents, my cousins - have all suffered/ suffer with various forms and intensities of depression and/or anxiety disorders. Dysfunctional families has been a running theme throughout - beginning with the divorce of my grandmothers parents when it was still rare to do so! And subsequent damage to her passed on.. and though she was a strong woman, she could not be such a close or involved mother to my mother and aunts (who were sent to boarding school at 4 years old) because she hadn't received proper care herself from either of her parents. And these limitations are passed on.. though I do think it is possible to make a conscious effort also to change the patterns - but then perhaps it does also come down to luck - finding the right partner! Though that can be even harder if you're not so stable yourself... and I think you can also inherit self-destructive tastes in men!

Anyway I received 24.2,5 > 60

I have begun to think of hex 24 as about learning. After something bad happening you return to a new cycle where you can start again on a better footing ie. slightly more armed this time, after learning during a difficult time.
Could this be saying that we are not examining and learning from our mistakes or negative tendencies etc? Not accepting self and/or the past and so not moving on? Or could it be about returning to the same old issues?

I'm not sure about this reading at all so any takers would be great.

Thanks

 

[tigerintheboat]

The Return of Limitations, or Limitations Cause Return

I asked the I Ching why it is that so many of the members of my immediate family - especially on my mum's side - aunts, grandmother, parents, my cousins - have all suffered/ suffer with various forms and intensities of depression and/or anxiety disorders.

Anyway I received 24.2,5 > 60

I have begun to think of hex 24 as about learning. After something bad happening you return to a new cycle where you can start again on a better footing ie. slightly more armed this time, after learning during a difficult time.
Could this be saying that we are not examining and learning from our mistakes or negative tendencies etc? Not accepting self and/or the past and so not moving on? Or could it be about returning to the same old issues?

Thanks for that idea about H24 as about learning...that is a big help to me, as it may be a key that will unlock my struggles with that hexagram.

I can't justify it, and don't have the several hours or days of time possibly necessary to try, but I have this feeling that the answer to your question is in the idea of reincarnation. Or at least cycles on earth.

Why do things happen to people on earth? Any answer to this has to go deeper than most of our "answers." Most of the time we are content to ask for help, for advice or for prediction. But when we ask why, we ask a much deeper question. Many people/organizations/religions will take your money to give you an "answer" to these kind of questions.

The best I can come to a feeble explanation of why I think about reincarnation and cycles is in the names of the two hexagrams: Limits/Limitations cause us to Return.

Tiger

 

[em ching]

Hi tiger,

Hmm Limits/Limitations cause us to Return So it could be to do with not accepting ourselves? Or not working with our limitations - rather allowing them to stop us in our tracks? Wanting to be better or assuming that we have limitations... Being set back on ourselves by our limitations and not learning from them but allowing them to depress us? Perhaps once we break out of that cycle... a new one can begin.. for the next generations (God help them lol). I saw a film last night - 'The Private Lives of Pippa Lee' which was excellent - and in the film Pippa comments that parenting style goes from one extreme to the other down the generations... never quite getting it right. For example a controlling/ smothering mother, may in turn create a daughter who's mothering style is distant and perhaps almost neglectful.. by dint of trying not to repeat her mother's mistakes... a sad cycle... but the film was interesting (and funny) exactly because of these issues. So it's all part of the rich tapestry.. and can be turned into a positive (such as through art) if it doesn't depress us too much...

I have sadly had another set-back day today. Uncontrollably upset, couldn't be with my dad (he is the major stressor it seems at this time) but also juts feeling down and depressed with no let up throughout most of today... Feel calmer now hence able to write here. But it feels like such a waste... for my energy to be taken up so negatively.. yielding nothing of any good to anyone.

So again today I have thought I should ask the doctor for anti depressants. But I don't know... maybe I should just accept that I'm in a painful period. And maybe shouldn't take a short-cut out... As well as it feeling ingrained, I'm also aware that my situation is far from ideal.. so maybe that is the major reason I'm like this now. I felt sad and stressed this morning when I got out of bed which I wasn't expecting - asked the Iching and received hex 5. Perhaps I just need to accept I'm in a period of Waiting - and that ain't fun. But it's part of the cylcles of life...

But if anti-depressants would encourage me to make better use of this time then maybe I should. I received 18.2 > 52 (again!) when asking just now. Perhaps saying I've brought this on myself today by not endevouring to keep still as I was advised. Not easy when my emotions seem almost physical now...

Maybe I just need to really think about it - so a talk with the doctor would aid an informed decision so I'll do that. It just seems to be clocking up towards needing them.

The 5HTP did seem to be working but I was taking one in the morning and one at night. Because if I took 2 late in the day I found I was unable to sleep. But taking one in the morning made me very lethargic during the day. So I don't think for me they're enough at the moment. But maybe I can continue steering the boat through this period of rough sea ...

Thanks all for your support - and Clarity for letting me get some of this out!

Do you think 18.2 is saying I need to be gentler with this whole decision of anti-depressants? Feel my way and think about it (52) before taking action? I just don't know how many more days like this I can take... Funnily enough it has been my mother suggesting them to me seriously now...

Sheesh. Maybe it is also a case of needing to be alone. Needing more space from my nearest and dearest who keep exasperating my negative feelings... but I can't just pack up and leave.

:bows:

 

[em ching]

Searching hex 18 my_key wrote this

Hex 18 can be about just letting things take their natural course of decay. What is happening to you now and how you are feeling is all part of this natural cycle. Easy to say but not always easy to live through. Keep hanging on in there and the blockages you are feeling will disperse.


Which seems to fit... hopefully...

 

[rodaki]

hi Em . .

I'm really sorry to hear about your state today . . honestly, I do not know what your readings are saying exactly, I can only guess . . and offer some ideas here . .
One thing I've thought again from your other thread is what Marien had mentioned . . have you definitely ruled out the possibility of there being some chemical imbalance that is hereditary???
You have mentioned that you've done some work on your issues, I assumed you meant therapy . . have you found anything there that can help you understand better the patterns you are describing?

24 is about a turning point from winter to spring, the winter solstice when the days start getting bigger, darkness recedes, light increases and 60 can be abt thrift and having things not go over the mark, also abt patterns of open and closed, night and day, the seasons etc . .
your changing, dynamic lines 2&5 characterize hexagram 29 (Lofting's XOR method) which is about recurring trials, being put to The Test . . until we learn what we need to learn. They also talk abt making decisions abt your life and keeping to them, reinforcing them by choosing the right context, accepting prior faults . .

and 18.2 reinforces the idea that this problem is coming from your mother's side, or from your own yin nature and you must approach it with a calm and steady frame of mind, no abrupt or excessive moves

I think you need to sit down, take some deep breaths and methodically make a plan that will one by one examine and rule out (with the help of experts where needed) the possible reasons that may be causing your depression (physical? psychological?), keep to it and give to every part of it no more space than it deserves (that is just some personal advice, inspired by your readings, but not what your readings are saying . . this is something only you can unlock . .)

wishing you patience, courage, and clarity . . .
:bows:

 

[tigerintheboat]

Seeing the Obstruction

So again today I have thought I should ask the doctor for anti depressants. But I don't know... maybe I should just accept that I'm in a painful period. And maybe shouldn't take a short-cut out...But if anti-depressants would encourage me to make better use of this time then maybe I should. I received 18.2 > 52 (again!) when asking just now....Do you think 18.2 is saying I need to be gentler with this whole decision of anti-depressants? Feel my way and think about it (52) before taking action?

Karcher says, in commentary on H18.2 "You are dealing with the corruption of nourishment and care. Divination or good ideas will not help. You must put yourself into the middle of the situation and find your way. Then you will see the obstruction."

So, will you see better with anti-depressants or without them?

(I am very prejudiced on this point because of side effects and dangers in these drugs. Better to play with dosages on 5-HTP, eat more protein, walk more in the sun, etc...but you and I are not the same people! Incidentally, I take two after dinner and sleep better, so some experimentation is called for.)

I asked Yi what I could tell you that would be of use, and Yi responded 14.4 -- H26. My sense of that reading is that what is happening is emphatically not your fault, you have great power to realize things, but you can not be dominant in the situation. Use Great Restraint; be modest and cooperative and store up your energy.

Tiger

 

[maremaria]

Hi Em,

Couple of thoughts.

24 > 60
Could be , as you said that , the limitations the previous generation “put” upon you. Patterns that have imprinted in your grandmother mind and your mothers mind and yours. Patterns that re-occur. Bad news : you can’t delete them. Goods news : You can create new . These limitations maybe don’t let you be/go at “home”. But the lines you got, If I were you, I would smile.
Both hexs talk about cycles and new energy, one way or another. I also read in those lines that for your own cycle of life you are going to make the rules and decide how to run it.

18.2 > 52

Quoting W/B

18.2 This refers to mistakes that as a result of weakness have brought about decay-hence the symbol, "what has been spoiled by the mother. " In setting things right in such a case, a certain gentle consideration is called for. In order not to wound, one should not attempt to proceed too drastically.

One aspect of 52, in my eyes is independence. Explore the anti-depressants option but have in mind your reading. Doctors subscribe easily those pills. Ask also for alternatives. Running or swimming fast is very good. Also yoga and Pilates in a lower degree. They increase serotonin and make you feel better. See what you need, see how you can get it and make your decision in a 52 way.

I’ld like to share the words of a Greek writer. I think it fits with both of your readings.

You have your brush, you have your colors, you paint paradise, then in you go. -Nikos Kazantzakis

 

[marien]

So again today I have thought I should ask the doctor for anti depressants. But I don't know... maybe I should just accept that I'm in a painful period. And maybe shouldn't take a short-cut out...

Agreeing with Maremaria that doctors have a tendency to overprescribe these drugs, and that there are many dangers involved. But I'd also point out that they are not a short cut. Going on anti depressants will not make you happy. But maybe the right drug(s) combined with therapy could give you the ability to make yourself happy, something which maybe isn't possible now. If your synapses are blocking all the happy chemicals, then it might not be feasible to do this through self will. It's a very serious decision, and you might try talking to several doctors/specialists and reading about the physiological effects of these drugs. It's important to understand how they work. There are also lots of online support groups where you can pose questions about anti depressants and clinical depression. That might help you to stabilize yourself, which is the message of 52. Anti depressants may not be right for you, but they're worth looking into. It hurts to read about someone like you who is trying so hard and not feeling better. You shouldn't have to suffer for so long like this. Hang in there Em ching, and please keep us updated on your progress.

 

[em ching]

and 18.2 reinforces the idea that this problem is coming from your mother's side, or from your own yin nature and you must approach it with a calm and steady frame of mind, no abrupt or excessive moves.

wishing you patience, courage, and clarity . . .
:bows:

Thanks Rodaki.
When you say my yin nature do you mean that part of my depression could be the consequence of not being able to sit back and trust that life will bring me what I need eventually? I can be impulsive sometimes and push for things from situations or people, when the time isn't right or receptive to me, which has brought me problems and upset.
Or could it be that I am nurturing my dark yin side too much. Neglecting the yang positive side - I feel it's neglecting me but maybe I need to give it more of a chance to compete with my negative voice. (If you understand what I mean by that.)

Anyway the past couple of days I have been taking things slowly and not jumping to conclusions about my life... Was v upset the other morning then calmed. Spoke to my dad about needing space which he is going to do. Have taken on board my auntie's advice - been grocery shopping, will help more around the house and get into cooking!... Have a few days off work thank god so can do things to make me feel better - go shopping - hex 22 myself! Give value to the little things that make life good. Also have had a development in the work front so will work towards that. Self-discipline to detach my emotions from the tasks at hand.

Drugs wise I think I'll stick to the 5HTP for the time being
Anyway. Feeling again there are things I can do despite how I feel.

In the 'Tao of Pooh and Te of Piglet' (great book!)
There's a poem by William Blake which is fitting:

'It is right it should be so,
Man was made for Joy and Woe,
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go,
Joy and Woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine'.


:bows:

 

[em ching]

Thanks for taking the trouble tiger to ask the Yi what to say to help me
Perhaps 14.4 is saying that like you said, because everyone is different what works for one may not with the other. But eating more protein I can try and can't hurt! Yeah I've heard that can be good because it gives more energy. And I'm sure the 5HTP has helped me sleep and been beneficial! As long as I don't take too many

I looked up takes on 14.4 in previous threads and this came up

This is an emotional situation that goes against the wish of one will.
IOW, an emotional context where one will go thru a "magnitudinal emotional conflicts within". (from thread http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=3559)

Not sure how this was taken from the line but seems fitting! Perhaps it just means that one person's problems can seem irrational to an onlooker because they can't understand why they have them. That's not to say we can't help each other. But perhaps the Yi was just saying it's hard to really get through to another individual going through emotional upheaval.. because we all carry different loads (emotional baggage). But that doesn't mean we can't help and encourage each other - and in that way lighten our neighbour's loads a bit!? I have certainly felt relief and encouragement from everyone who's helped me on clarity. So 'He makes a difference Between himself and his neighbor' could be illustrating how you've already helped me and made a difference.

:bows:

 

[em ching]

Patterns that re-occur. Bad news : you can’t delete them. Goods news : You can create new . These limitations maybe don’t let you be/go at “home”. But the lines you got, If I were you, I would smile.
Both hexs talk about cycles and new energy, one way or another. I also read in those lines that for your own cycle of life you are going to make the rules and decide how to run it.

Running or swimming fast is very good. Also yoga and Pilates in a lower degree. They increase serotonin and make you feel better. See what you need, see how you can get it and make your decision in a 52 way. [/FONT]

I’ld like to share the words of a Greek writer. I think it fits with both of your readings.

You have your brush, you have your colors, you paint paradise, then in you go. -Nikos Kazantzakis

Thanks yeah I am very aware of what those patterns are so I can try at least to transfer this knowledge into practical action (or non-action depending on the situation) rather than feel doomed

Yes I have been a member of the gym now for a few months since arriving in this slump, which I've been making full use of. So if anything at least my difficulties have made me fitter!

 

[em ching]

But I'd also point out that they are not a short cut. Going on anti depressants will not make you happy.
If your synapses are blocking all the happy chemicals, then it might not be feasible to do this through self will. It's a very serious decision.

Thank you for your encouragement - hanging in there is what I am determined to do now! And I agree with what you say above - which is why I'm going to give other things a chance to make me feel better and keep me afloat.
I am aware that I tend to express my ups and downs on Clarity in succession - like a mood wavelength. So I know that just because I feel I'm on my way up again now - I am going to be mindful that what goes up....
But that said I will remember the William Blake poem, and the teachings of the I ching. Especially hex 11 line 3 'Prosperity is followed by decline, this is the eternal law on earth'. ) But more prosperity please! haha...

Thanks all
:bows:

 

[ginnie]

Hi Em,

I'm jumping in here late and I see that you've gotten so much good advice . . .

One translation of hex 24 is the word Recovery. I think the Yi is telling you a couple of very positive things about your fated condition, certain nervous symptoms.

24.2 says you will get the help you need.

The way I read 24.5 is that you need to focus on yourself and would do well to forget the long family history. Always be honest with yourself, and when it comes right down to it you will see that there is nothing gained in the long run by ascribing causes to family genetics. When there's a problem, it always must manifest now,and therefore it can be always be dealt with by you, now, too.

Sometimes we make the mistake of feeling it's okay to follow in the beloved footsteps of our female forebears, but in this case, I am sure that your grandmother and mother and aunts would all want you to be a well woman, Em Ching, not suffering from debilitating nervous symptoms. The #18.2 means to treat your condition with great gentleness, never with force.

 

[em ching]

-Thanks Ginnie.
Yes I will try to make the changes and not assume the worst...
Sometimes it seems to clutch at my chest though in moments of panic.. but passes again...
Things just need to fall into place at the mo. And I need to give myself more positive attention... keep going.

:bows:

 

[ginnie]

Sometimes it seems to clutch at my chest though in moments of panic.. but passes again...

Most people have nervous symptoms. It's just a matter of degree. You may be assuming that other people are "fine," but that cannot be true. If you make it your goal to lessen your symptoms, then you would be doing "fine," too.

 

[em ching]

Yes. Neglect them in favour of practical activities perhaps... they're sure to get the message

 

[ginnie]

Getting going, practically any activity at all, is a well-known antidote for nervous symptoms.

A lot of women are currently taking up knitting with needles and yarn. This is a very calming activity, because one is counting or saying "knit knit knit knit purl knit knit knit knit" to oneself. Personally, I find knitting boring, but there are other things to do that get the "right brain" into action. I think that anything that switches on the right brain, like drawing, counting, and so forth, and switches off the left brain, which thinks too much in circles, would be good.

Any physical activity outside is good, too. When the muscles are in motion, the mood of the mind tends to improve almost immediately.

I have a lot of ideas on this subject, but I'm going to leave this thread now . . . Best of luck. I'm sending you some white light. Bye for now.