...life can be translucent

Menu

25.2 to have a goal / gain in mind or not?

L

legume

Guest
i'm not sure about this line. some commentaries seem to speak about doing each task or taking action for its own sake, without thinking about consequences or any sort of gain and in this way, so to speak, achieving non-entanglement (i.e. Wilhelm, Legge). then some i understand as taking the middle path, as if saying it only makes sense to work on something while knowing what you're working for, but at the time when you're at it, it's best to only focus on the task at hand (Bradford, Hilary - and apologies if i skewed the actual meaning of your commentary through paraphrasing). then there's also Berkers, who says something quite opposite, that it's actually better to work towards a goal.

is the most prevalent commentary (which i understand as having no goal or gain in mind) coming from the line itself or from the xiaoxiang? Legge's translation of the little image is He reaps without having ploughed:' - (the thought of) riches to be got had not risen (in his mind). but the bits in brackets seem to me as obvious afterthought of the translator. so the xiaoxiang itself looks more like Bradfords translation Not plowing to harvest: No riches yet.

and this makes me now lean more towards Berkers commentary on the line itself, though for the longest time i thought otherwise, that the advice is not to count on any gains. i don't however know chinese and although with some online help the first part of 25.2 (不耕獲 不菑畬) with fields and no plough seem quite clear to me, i'm really struggling how to understand the latter part (則利有攸往). then it's advantageous / worthwhile / to have somewhere to go? but 利 speaks of profit / advantage / merit / gain. so why no goal, if the goal is to go?

there's no direction in mind, but there's a goal or some gain in mind after all, at least in the going? thank you to whomever can help me with this. i'd be curious how this line actually played out for some in real life experience as well.
 

dfreed

Inactive
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
409
As usual, I think that what this line - or any line - 'means' has to do with what we asked the Yi; and also which translation we are using. But delving in even without a query ....

Richard Rutt's translation reads:
25.2 -‘Reaping without first having ploughed, tilling without first having cleared.’ Thus favorable when there is somewhere to go.

What is interesting for me is that 25's lower trigram Thunder changes to trigram Lake with the movement / change of this line. And one association I have with Lake is about unique or outside-the-box (or lines) thinking. And here the line statement reflects this: usually we need to - or think we need to - clear a field before we till (plow) it; and we need to plow before we harvest our crops.

But here the Yi is saying: "think differently about how you approach your situation; maybe the solution or resolution will come in a way (or ways) you don't expect" (e.g. harvesting before - and not after - plowing, clearing, etc.);

.... and tying it to Legume's question, it might be saying: "in this situation (that you've asked about) you think you need to have a goal or you think you need to gain something (or you think there is just one specific way to reach your goal), but maybe ....?"

And so it's also interesting to me that Rutt titles Hex. 25 'Unexpected'.

This reminds me of the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Chod, or Feeding Demons: usually we want to get rid of, avoid, or squelch our 'demons' - our unwanted 'stuff' which troubles us, or makes us ill at ease. But with this practice we instead (ritualistically) feed these very same demons, and thereby turn them into allies.

That's one way I might look at 25.2, and .... Bradford Hatcher's Yi gives it a different translation and therefore other possible meanings - and he titles 25 Without Pretense:
25.2 - When not plowing to harvest, and not breaking new ground for established fields, then it is worthwhile to have somewhere to go.

Here, I'm reminded of another aspect of trigram Lake: it is associated with the Fall, a time when plowing and tilling were finished (not doing these things), and once the harvest was in, it might be a worthwhile time to visit with friends or distant relatives. Thinking more mythically, Lake is also associated with shamans and diviners - so perhaps this 'worthwhile place to go' was a time / place to communicate with or visit the spirit world or one's ancestors. And this too reminds me of unique ways of seeing, thinking, and being - as a shaman might.

Best, D
 
Last edited:
L

legume

Guest
thanks D. this helps in particular:

This reminds me of the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Chod, or Feeding Demons: usually we want to get rid of, avoid, or squelch our 'demons' - our unwanted 'stuff' which troubles us, or makes us ill at ease. But with this practice we instead (ritualistically) feed these very same demons, and thereby turn them into allies.

though it makes me think of 25.4 more, which actually was the line i got previously and asked for a follow up on it, with 25.2 as a result. i have some experience with 25.2 but in hindsight not sure if it was saying that having no gain or goal in mind makes one free to go (which i felt was the case) or maybe advising that with a goal in mind there would have been a higher probability of harvest (which i now can only wonder about).

i also somehow got caught up in the line itself forgetting for a moment about the broader context like the hex name. i think unexpected or without pretense would assume no expectation or having a goal or gain in mind after all.

but then throughout the lines of the hex different things can happen to the one "without pretense", the cow gets stolen, one gets afflicted while not medicating and eventually in the top line being without pretense or innocent (or maybe without goal or gain in mind) brings misfortune. i'm not sure how to relate all these to the 2nd line or even if i should, but maybe looking at all of them in the context of the hexagram will give me more answers whether one should assume a goal and hope for some gain, or the goal should be just action for its own sake (kind of like the "discipline of de" in gus van sant's short).

and lastly i'm more and more confused about the whole line, considering that most commentaries mention working at a task, or taking action for the sake of it, but the line itself says not ploughing and not weeding and yet getting results. maybe it's more about wei wu wei, or action through non-action kind of thing, conscious decision to not act for a reason, so the goal is to not act and go with the flow?
 

dfreed

Inactive
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
409
i'm more and more confused about the line ....
I wonder, is this line part of the response you got to a question or query you posed to the Yi? For me, what we ask or state is an important part of the response. Without it, 25.2 can be many things - as you seem to be discovering with all the translations, comments, and Wings commentaries you're sharing here.

And since you have quite a few of these already, let me suggest one more:

25.2 - Reaping without first having ploughed: not rich. (from the Xiaoxiang, Wing 3 - lesser figure commentaries, Richard Rutt trans.) For me this suggests that we should gain or achieve our goal(s) through our own efforts: to reap or harvest without first doing the work of clearing and tilling is not real richness. (And this is different than what I was offering above - though not more or less correct, nor better nor worse - though it does feel much more Confucian in nature; that doesn't make it wrong - just that it is a later commentary and not the text of the Zhouyi.)

Maybe this helps with understanding the Yi's response to you?

D
 
Last edited:

my_key

visitor
Joined
Mar 22, 1971
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
1,334
This Hexagram shows the process of acting naturally ( being authentic), being spontaneous (without falseness) and allowing unconscious movement (all the reaping without planting and tilling before clearing themes in line 2 ) that equates to innocence of being. Walking in life cloaked in your innocence, without a thought for personal gain, will bring about a disentanglement from your past demons. Here at line 2 you sit at the core of your inner world - the place of transformation towards future harmony.

In the Judgement it advocates persevering and notes that any success you find will only come from the source (a higher source?) i.e. any direction you take as a human on this earth will be fruitless. All you need to focus on is setting an intent to correct yourself and become more upstanding and to do this the Image advises to trust in the abundance of the time (like the 'Early Kings') and allow this to inspire you internally and nurture the myriad beings so that these can support your inner changes too.

At line 2 you are told it is beneficial to untertake a task / a venture i.e. have a direction to go. That direction though is not to focus on the thing that is troubling or what you think you want and more a direction that is true to you - something that is natural, that you enjoy that you want to do just for the sake of it. Maybe something that you can feel proud of doing.

An example of this might be that you volunteer at a local old people's home, or day centre, just because you have always felt inspired when you work with old people. Then as you commit to and persevere with this new altruistic direction for you life you notice that some of the more troublesome aspects of your character (the false you) begin to melt away. You might begin to see that you are less angry; you can now relate with an older family member with greater empathy; you form a powerful friendship with one of the other volunteers; you notice the gift you have for bringing joy to other peoples life; you find that an addiction or compulsion becomes less compelling ....... or many other possibilities none of which you have cleared or tilled ground for and yet here you are reaping a reward of something that you have not sewn or planted.

Somehow, through setting out without any expectations of personal gain (per without a direction in the Judgement) they have arrived in your lap effortlessly: as if by magic.

....or maybe it's nothing like that at all.

Good Luck
 
Last edited:

kestrelw1ngs

visitor
Joined
Apr 4, 2021
Messages
334
Reaction score
195
I received this cast today when asking what someone's intentions towards me are.

'No ploughing, reaping.
No cleared land, ploughland.
And so there is harvest in having a direction to go.'

This is a domestic partnership where I do most of the work, provide a home environment, food, and such. Plans have been laid for the future.
However the emotional distress of my partner's avoidance behavior has become a severe problem for me, causing a rift I don't know can be healed without drastic change. From seeking nourishment outside the relationship in other men, drinking near constantly, dependency on my direction to do any chores, plan activities or participate in building a shared life. I'm not an innocent here by any means, having contributed to problems, but also do most of the emotional work to mend communication.

She claims we are in an open relationship, which I am willing to be when connection is strong, but in practice it feels like she is 'shopping' for a new partner while keeping me as a backup plan.
Circumstances are such that a breakup can't happen immediately so I've been trying to make it work while also bringing my true feelings into the light.

25.2 - Reaping without first having ploughed: not rich. (from the Xiaoxiang, Wing 3 - lesser figure commentaries, Richard Rutt trans.) For me this suggests that we should gain or achieve our goal(s) through our own efforts: to reap or harvest without first doing the work of clearing and tilling is not real richness.

Translation I am using on Eclectic Energies renders it:

Not plowing yields uncultivated land.
Thus, it is beneficial to have a goal to move to.

This seems to be a confirmation of the situation that could go several ways:

1. she is indeed "reaping without ploughing" i.e. seeking fulfillment and a happy relationship without doing the inner work mutual connection (real richness?) takes
2. a feeling of "i should stick with this, its all there waiting for me" but really she isn't happy, this future requires work and she is looking for an easier direction to go
3. suspended, not taking action. avoiding "clearing" or breakup. maybe there is a need for inner clarity to find a true direction. that is entirely her own journey, doesn't have much to do with me

So yes, it depends on the question asked. for my inquiry, it doesn't feel like a positive cast for getting results.
 

dfreed

Inactive
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
409
So yes, it depends on the question asked. for my inquiry, it doesn't feel like a positive cast for getting results.

Yes, I think the question or query is crucial part of this process, as is the translation you use. I have a few translations I know and trust; there are many I don't rely on - and I think many are interpreations, not translations of the Yijing.

I assume that both your query and the translation you're using are different than those of the person who original started this thread. If you want feedback or input about your specific situation, just a though/tip (which you may already know): you should consider starting a thread in Shared Readings about your question to take full advantage of this forum.

Best, D
 
Last edited:

EsYoSoy

visitor
Joined
May 30, 2015
Messages
15
Reaction score
5
This Hexagram shows the process of acting naturally ( being authentic), being spontaneous (without falseness) and allowing unconscious movement (all the reaping without planting and tilling before clearing themes in line 2 ) that equates to innocence of being. Walking in life cloaked in your innocence, without a thought for personal gain, will bring about a disentanglement from your past demons. Here at line 2 you sit at the core of your inner world - the place of transformation towards future harmony.

In the Judgement it advocates persevering and notes that any success you find will only come from the source (a higher source?) i.e. any direction you take as a human on this earth will be fruitless. All you need to focus on is setting an intent to correct yourself and become more upstanding and to do this the Image advises to trust in the abundance of the time (like the 'Early Kings') and allow this to inspire you internally and nurture the myriad beings so that these can support your inner changes too.

At line 2 you are told it is beneficial to untertake a task / a venture i.e. have a direction to go. That direction though is not to focus on the thing that is troubling or what you think you want and more a direction that is true to you - something that is natural, that you enjoy that you want to do just for the sake of it. Maybe something that you can feel proud of doing.

An example of this might be that you volunteer at a local old people's home, or day centre, just because you have always felt inspired when you work with old people. Then as you commit to and persevere with this new altruistic direction for you life you notice that some of the more troublesome aspects of your character (the false you) begin to melt away. You might begin to see that you are less angry; you can now relate with an older family member with greater empathy; you form a powerful friendship with one of the other volunteers; you notice the gift you have for bringing joy to other peoples life; you find that an addiction or compulsion becomes less compelling ....... or many other possibilities none of which you have cleared or tilled ground for and yet here you are reaping a reward of something that you have not sewn or planted.

Somehow, through setting out without any expectations of personal gain (per without a direction in the Judgement) they have arrived in your lap effortlessly: as if by magic.

....or maybe it's nothing like that at all.

Good Luck
I was passing by as a silent reader, looking for a key that would help me think outside the box and... voila! Thanks for the inspiration... a full 25.2 was what you wrote. Grateful!
 

rosada

visitor
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
9,888
Reaction score
3,169
I see a link between 25.2 - the Innocent One happily sauntering down the road eating fruit from trees he didn’t plant unaware the one who did do the planting might consider him a thief - and then 25.3 - Instant Karma! Well, maybe not instant karma but eventually. Point is, seeing 25.2 as seeing things from the the happy wanderer’s point of view, that is, that he’s having an innocent journey and thus oblivious to the efforts it took to provide for him and then 25.3 as seeing the same incident from the citizen’s point of view - or perhaps the wanderer is now a citizen and realizing what it feels like to have some random passerby help themselves to your stuff.
 
Last edited:

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

Top