27. Memorizing the I Ching I/ The Corners of the Mouth (Providing Nourishment)

[Sparhawk]

Very funny, Luis. But you have a point here too. What we eat can and does determine the character of our thoughts. Hmmm...

Sigh, do I know that... True.

 

[dobro p]

Why *corners* of the mouth, in Wilhelm/Baynes? (What's a 'corner' of a mouth anyway?) Just another example of gratuitous (and not very useful) poetic imagery in everybody's favorite classic, right?

 

[Trojina]

If the corners of your mouth turn up its a smile, if they turn down its a frown. Turned down corners equal unhappy expression I guess.

 

[rosada]

The IMAGE

At the foot of the mountain, thunder:
The image of PROVIDING NOURISHMENT.
Thus the superior man is careful of his words
And temperate in eating and drinking.

"God comes forth in the sign of the Arousing": when in the spring the life forces stir again, all things come into being anew. "He brings to perfection in the sign of Keeping Still": thus in the early spring when the seeds fall to earth, all things are made ready. This is an image of providing nourishment through movement and tranquillity. the superior man takes it as a pattern for the nourishment and cultivation of his character. Words are a movement going from within outward. Eating and drinking are movements from without inward. Both kinds of movement can be modified by tranquility. for tranquility keeps the words that come out of the mouth from exceeding proper measure, and keeps the food that goes into the mouth from exceeding its proper measure. Thus character is cultivated.

Thunder is the trigram in which God comes forth; the moutain is the trigram in which all things are completed. This is the image of PROVIDING NOURISHMENT. From the hexagram as a whole, as representing an open mouth, are derived the movements of the mouth, speech and the taking in of food. This movement corresponds with the character of the trigram Chen. It must be moderaated if it is to be correct. This is in correspondence with the character of the trigram Ken.

 

[Trojina]

Why *corners* of the mouth, in Wilhelm/Baynes? (What's a 'corner' of a mouth anyway?) Just another example of gratuitous (and not very useful) poetic imagery in everybody's favorite classic, right?

No wrong. 'Mouth drooping' clearly indicates to me a miserable expression . Why is that gratuitous.

Why is it so fashionable to knock Wilhelm - I never read his interpetations but I like his line translations - to me they are fairly rich in imagery and it is useful.

 

[Sparhawk]

Why *corners* of the mouth, in Wilhelm/Baynes? (What's a 'corner' of a mouth anyway?) Just another example of gratuitous (and not very useful) poetic imagery in everybody's favorite classic, right?

Perhaps Martin or someone that reads German can tell us what the original Wilhelm translation says. The interesting thing is that in the Spanish translation, from the original German text, the title is translated as "Las comisuras de la boca". "Comisura" is the word that in English is translated as "corner". Funny thing is that "comisura" is a very precise anatomical word and we have other words for "corner," like "esquina". We wouldn't use "Las esquinas de la boca", for example, because we have a very precise word that describes the points where the two lips meet (the word also applies to the eyelids, as in "las comisuras de los ojos"). What I'm trying to say is that for me, the word "corner" sounds too generic and perhaps the Germans have a similar word to the Spanish, very specific, for that anatomical part.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, Wilhelm idea for translating, or perhaps naming it so, comes from the image of the hexagram itself. It does look like an open mouth, the two external yang lines being the upper and lower lips and the four yin lines depicting both the open cavity and the continuation of the lips. Hexagram 21 also uses this image, adding something in between the teeth.

L

 

[bradford]

What we eat can and does determine the character of our thoughts. Hmmm...

In fact the little phrase "you are what you eat" goes a long way towards describing 27.
So does the corrolary from information theory: garbage in, garbage out.

 

[Sparhawk]

Ha! There is a en English word that Baynes could have used (it is almost identical to the Spanish one):

commissure

Main Entry:
com·mis·sure
Pronunciation:
\ˈkä-mə-ˌshu̇r\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin commissura a joining, from commissus, past participle
Date:
15th century
1 : a point or line of union or junction especially between two anatomical parts (as adjacent heart valves) 2 : a connecting band of nerve tissue in the brain or spinal cord

Got a love Google... Remember this one next time you play Scrabble...

L

 

[bradford]

Ha! There is a en English word that Baynes could have used (it is almost identical to the Spanish one): L

Good sleuthing, Luis.
Corners always implied four lips to me, or the scary
kind of mouth like you see on Alien vs Predator.

 

[rosada]

commissary

A foodstore.

..
I just think that's interesting.

 

[Trojina]

In the UK 'corner of the mouth' is just a commonplace everyday expression - if you have to talk about your mouth at all, ie 'I have a sore in the corner of my mouth' - so I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. What do you call that place where lips meet (at corners) in the US ?

 

[getojack]

In the UK 'corner of the mouth' is just a commonplace everyday expression - if you have to talk about your mouth at all, ie 'I have a sore in the corner of my mouth' - so I couldn't see what all the fuss was about. What do you call that place where lips meet (at corners) in the US ?

We call it the corner of your mouth. And if someone is speaking sarcastically, we often call it "speaking out of the corner of your mouth." Kind of like this... or this...

 

[Sparhawk]

Or this...

 

[bruce_g]

View attachment 308

 

[Sparhawk]

Master Yi-worm strikes again...

 

[Trojina]

What I don't get is if you all knew what the corner of the mouth is why have you spent the last page or so trying to figure what the corner of the mouth means

Why did Dobro term Wihelms wording gratuitous for speaking of the corner of the mouth and ask 'what is the corner of the mouth anyway' ?

 

[bruce_g]

What I don't get is if you all knew what the corner of the mouth is why have you spent the last page or so trying to figure what the corner of the mouth means

Why did Dobro term Wihelms wording gratuitous for speaking of the corner of the mouth and ask 'what is the corner of the mouth anyway' ?

Beats me. I never troubled over Wilhelm's 27.1, and I still think it's on the money, even if not translated exactly correctly.

 

[Sparhawk]

Who knows... Maybe because we love to...

Besides, it is a harmless way to "memorize" the darn thing...

L

 

[rosada]

Line 27.1 indeed refers to the lips turning down, which is fairly obvious, but I think dobro was asking why the WHOLE HEXAGRAM is known as "The Corners of the Mouth". Reviewing Wilhelm's comments, it seems to me the "Corner" we are refering to here, is actually the hinge of the jaw. The upper part of the mouth, like the mountain trigram, is still. It is the lower part of the mouth, the jaw, that moves and it can move because of the hinge. Thus in determining if one should speak or not speak, eat or not eat, they are considering if they should or should not move the hinge at The Corners of The Mouth.

 

[bruce_g]

Gads - I never even realized Wilhelm titled the gua Corners of the Mouth. That does seem little odd, actually.

 

[Sparhawk]

Gads - I never even realized Wilhelm titled the gua Corners of the Mouth. That does seem little odd, actually.

It's been flying under the radar with all the "nourishment" imagery, but yes, that's the name he applied to it. And what I was referring to about what his idea might have been for the image behind the name of the hexagram (not 27.1)



L

 

[bruce_g]

It's been flying under the radar with all the "nourishment" imagery, but yes, that's the name he applied to it. And what I was referring to about what his idea might have been for the image behind the name of the hexagram (not 27.1)
L

Yes, under the radar is right. I've been looking at that thing for what, 40 years? and "corners" never consciously connected, except in line 1. But have to say, that has been the case with a lot of Wilhelm's Yi, not so much in the actual text but in his commentaries. I've subconsciously edited/adjusted not only certain commentaries he's written, but a number of allegories as well. Although I still see most of his Yi as genius, not as mere poetry.

 

[Trojina]

Yes, under the radar is right. I've been looking at that thing for what, 40 years? and "corners" never consciously connected, except in line 1. But have to say, that has been the case with a lot of Wilhelm's Yi, not so much in the actual text but in his commentaries. I've subconsciously edited/adjusted not only certain commentaries he's written, but a number of allegories as well. Although I still see most of his Yi as genius, not as mere poetry.

You're not the only one Bruce, in all these years I've never seen 'corners of the mouth' as the title of this hexagram. Infact initially I wondered what the heck Rosada was talking about - till I looked at Wilhelm. Weird isn't it, that neither of us ever saw that through years of referencing it

 

[getojack]

OK, maybe I'm getting ahead of things a bit, but speaking of 27.1... can anyone tell me why duo3 朵in line 1 seems to be unanimously translated as something like "hanging down" or "drooping" when the character is actually either a measure word for flowers or an earlobe? And from an etymological standpoint, it would make more sense as the top part of a flower or tree that blows in the wind... I'd like to translate 觀我朵頤 as "Observe my flapping jaw" or something like that. If the writers of the Yijing meant "hanging down" wouldn't they have used a different character?

 

[bradford]

OK, maybe I'm getting ahead of things a bit, but speaking of 27.1... can anyone tell me why duo3 朵in line 1 seems to be unanimously translated as something like "hanging down" or "drooping" when the character is actually either a measure word for flowers or an earlobe?

Karlgren's Analytic Dictionary (Dover) (entry 1007) reads:
drooping branches; to dangle; cluster of flowers or fruits; lobe of ear
[tree with drooping top branches depicted]

 

[Sparhawk]

Following Brad's lead, I was just checking the L.Wieger dictionary and he has a very good distinction about the radical for this character, 殳, only the original form was only the upper part which looks very similar to 几, but it is not the same character. Whereas the latter depicts a stand or small table, the former depicts "the jerky flapping of a short wing. Then, in general any rhythmical and jerky motion. The derivatives of 殳, must be carefully distinguished from 乃 and 几; in the modern writing, this distinction is not easy to be made."

L

 

[bradford]

Following Brad's lead, I was just checking the L.Wieger dictionary and he has a very good distinction about the radical for this character, 殳,
\L

I have Radical 75 (mu, tree/wood) + 2, not 殳

 

[Sparhawk]

I have Radical 75 (mu, tree/wood) + 2, not 殳

I still get confused with the radicals... I took the upper part of the character as being the radical for duo3, not mu... Actually in the Wieger dictionary, duo3 appears under 殳. Now, this character is a derivation of "shu" (look under Lesson 22 first and then at 19 and 20). I'm sure you have this old dictionary.

L

 

[bradford]

I took the upper part of the character as being the radical for duo3, not mu... Actually in the Wieger dictionary, duo3 appears under 殳. L

Not in my copy. The Wieger I have has a radical + stroke index and Duo3 is found under 75, not 79.

 

[Sparhawk]

Hi Brad,

As I said, more than likely I'm using the radicals concept the wrong way, but this picture shows what I'm talking about. If you have the patience, someday, you can tell me how to spot the radicals. I find that in many cases they are not so obvious.

L