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28.5

canislulu

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28.5 - "Withered willow sprouts flowers, Venerable woman gets an upright husband. No blame, no praise." (Barrett)

In contemplating this line today I find the "no praise" part interesting.
Isn't being venerable and upright praiseworthy in and of itself? Or is the "time" described by this line a place of marriage between "venerable" and "upright" that has the potential to move either toward blame or praise depending on choices made?

I am thinking getting an "upright husband" puts one in the position to be successful in making a transition --- crossing the Great Pass.

One hasn't crossed yet. No blame, no praise. There is still work to do. One must "choose a direction to go". Will one choose a direction that will yield blame or praise? Or perhaps one's direction will be unnoticed and neither praised nor blamed.

Are there any bees to pollinate the flowers so the situation can bare fruit? Will the fruit be nourishing or poisonous?
 

rosada

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I think 28.5 is saying one's actions may be a bit excessive but like most 5th lines it's not a big negative. As you say, the action may go unnoticed and neither praised nor blamed.

I got this line a couple of years ago when I asked about getting married again after my first husband died. My new husband is a year younger than I am, so that fit the line description but also I think our friends were kinda amused that we wanted to be legally married at all when at our age and with the kids grown we could have easily just moved in together - they didn't blame us for getting married (well, maybe my kids wondered for a minute what their crazy mother was getting herself into this time), but also there wasn't the sort of light-up-the-skies enthusiasm you have when a bride is 20 either. So perhaps our getting married was a bit Excessive but at this time in our lives we're not intending to cross any big rivers so it didn't cause any bridges to break. No blame - no praise, just nice :).
 

canislulu

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Thanks for sharing your 28.5 experience. How nice to get that response when asking about getting married!
I hope others will share their experiences and thoughts on this line.
 

bradford

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You really have to have been or slept with a cougar to understand this line.

[I've been asked to elaborate]

The withered poplar* bears flowers
An older lady finds herself a young gentleman to marry
No blame, no praise

28.5x The withered poplar bears flowers:
(But) how could this last?
* (An) older lady (and) young male companion:
So inviting (to) condemnation

This line is the complement to 28.2, where an older man finds a younger woman
which is more socially accepted (see the "half your age plus seven" rule)
And it's the Fan Yao of 32.5:
To continue in one’s character means persistence
For a woman of maturity, promising
For a man in youth, disappointment


I don't believe the Yi is condemning the older woman / younger man arrangement,
but it is warning of greater social difficulties ahead, especially gossip, and the childbearing issue.
Still carrying much gratitude for the older lovers I knew in my youth, I don't think this is a bad thing.
These were in fact extraordinary events in my life, consistent with the core meaning of Gua 28.
Thus my commentary reads:

Good for our lovely, plucky old lady! With wrinkle goop and war paint, and some
would say not enough else, she goes on the hunt and brings home a healthy, young
buck. How discreet can you be when you kick up your heels like that? There will be
no children of course, and no praise from the horrified gossips, and one day he will
move on somewhat wiser. In great times life knows its allies, sometimes by warmth.
The value of such an arrangement is not so commonly known, but its worth is clear
to those so arranged. Why even care what a gossip will think? How could this last?
Can it be more than one final fling if the flower saps the tree’s strength and renewal
is not from the roots? A last hurrah or maybe hooray! Why not ask this one instead:
Who dares to measure the time? And is the eternal really all that it’s rumored to be?
 
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Tohpol

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Have a few friends - three couples - who fit that criteria (two of them are the older man/younger woman deal and one older woman younger man) and up popped 28.5 for each at the start of their relationships. The latter couple is going strong, (still flowering) and the other two's arrangement fizzled out - one very amicably and the other less so. The two guys are not players or sugar daddy's. And the "old lady" is not remotely a "cougar." So, although this line can apply to the usual cultural categorisations or cliches, it can just as easily not.
 

hilary

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Have a few friends - three couples - who fit that criteria (two of them are the older man/younger woman deal and one older woman younger man) and up popped 28.5 for each at the start of their relationships. The latter couple is going strong, (still flowering) and the other two's arrangement fizzled out...
Yes - 28.5's zhi gua is an interesting one.
 

Liselle

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Another interesting reading is when you get both those moving lines, 28.2.5 > 62. Great Exceeding changing to Small Exceeding, and the steps of change are a pair (28.2 zhi 31, 28.5 zhi 32).

I had that once when I asked about a family activity. I think the lines meant it would be of most benefit to the teenager among us (maybe he'd learn something from the experience that would influence him in some way, 28.2 zhi 31), whereas the rest of us older folks would just more enjoy it (28.5).
 

Liselle

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Well--- I suppose more precisely what Yi might have been doing was addressing the reading to us older ones, since we're the ones who'd facilitate the activity that would include the teenager (edited: and I'm the one who cast the reading). So in that way, the "withered willow(s) sprout shoots." But for ourselves it would just be fun.
 

canislulu

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Any thoughts on the advise when it appears for a question not related to a relationship?
 

Liselle

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Mine wasn't about a relationship, but it was two lines, not just 28.5
 

bradford

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Any thoughts on the advise when it appears for a question not related to a relationship?

An extraordinary experience, outside the boundaries and envelopes, calling for adaptation on your part.
Just hope it's not a plumbing problem.
 

Trojina

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Any thoughts on the advise when it appears for a question not related to a relationship?

Are you not in WikiWing, there are plenty of experiences in there for 28.5 (only £1 a month or more and you get to take part in making a massive Yi book for the benefit of all...including yourself ...Hilary didn't pay me to say that but we do need more contributors to share in it)

Anyway in a nutshell if a woman is having a sexual relationship with a younger man when she's past menopause she's not in it to produce fruit/children...she's doing it for the sake of it. (back in those days when Yi was written pre good birth control probably all sex meant possibility of fruit)There is no judgement on that, neither 'blame nor praise' in the sense that it's sufficient unto itself. She won't produce children but they can both have a fab time together (flowers) nonetheless.

So transfer this to questions not about relationships, it would refer often to things you do for the sake of doing them. You wouldn't be doing them with a view to long term progress/fruit/children/dynasty you'd be doing it to celebrate life or make the most of your life whilst it's yours. This at times may not be valued by others, they might think 'what's the point of that' but what is happening here can be as Brad said, something outside of social conventions. I wrote of it re an exercise programme in wiki where I had this line where I think it was saying yes, this is okay in it's own right, but it's not going anywhere. A younger person may get fitter and fitter , become athletes/dancers (fruits of achievement) an older person will just be seeking to enjoy themselves and maintain health.

A hypothetical example. Suppose you ask if it's a good idea to subscribe to a magazine in your area of interest in which you hope one day to work ? 28.5 here might indicate this magazine is something you will enjoy and so on but it won't assist you in getting a job in the field (fruits)...there's no extras in it, it's not something that will go out into the future beyond itself as offspring do. But hey we don't do everything for the sake of off springs. Orgasms, magazines and exercise programs can be (well generally are) perfectly fulfilling for their own sake (you could combine all 3 but lets not go there)


Plumbing ? An imaginary plumbing question for 28.5, actually I think I did get it once, will have to look in journal.
 
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Trojina

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No can't find it...but I did notice 28.5 cropped up for a number of social situations wherein I had a nice time but didn't make new contacts or experiences from. The line says the older woman does produce flowers, beautiful things that nourish our soul, but not shoots, new life... So from some parties or meetings you might come away having connected with someone you will have a future connection with, be creative with/do things with...things that stretch out into the future/fruit but the 28.5 experience might be more like you have a great experience that may nourish your soul, make you flower, but it doesn't produce an on-going outer change in your life...something like that.

I think even in what I've written there's a sort of negative bias that many commentaries do have, that somehow the fact that there's no chance of new fruit makes this a lesser thing. But it isn't, hence 'no blame/no praise', it's outside the usual realm of judgment as Brad was saying.
 

Trojina

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Also worth noting the phrase 'no blame, no praise' is in 2.4 and there it indicates this thing is really not open to ordinary evaluation. We are not able to judge it or evaluate it really. I expect 'no blame, no praise' occurs lots of other places too...none come to mind at this moment.
 

charly

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Also worth noting the phrase 'no blame, no praise' is in 2.4 and there it indicates this thing is really not open to ordinary evaluation. We are not able to judge it or evaluate it really. I expect 'no blame, no praise' occurs lots of other places too...none come to mind at this moment.
Hi, Trojina:

yu4, praise / compliment / reputation occurs six times in the Zhou Yi: 2.4 / 18.5 / 38.5 / 55.5 and 56.5 , but the four character sequence...


无咎
wu2 jiu4
NO BLAME
No wrong.

无譽
wu2 yu4
NO PRAISE
Disreputable.
Whitout compliments.

... occurs only in 2.4 an 28.5, as follows:

2.4
括囊。无咎无譽。
kuo4 nang2 wu2 jiu4 wu2 yu4
TYING BAG NO WRONG NO REPUTABLE.
Zip the bag. No wrong, without compliments.​

In the context of H.2 I believe that there is a possibility of reading it as an ancient women's right to keep the BAG closed or receptive although it could be seen a little disreputable. Not that women enjoyed reproductive rights but that reproduction was at the begining a female mystery.

All the best,

Charly
 
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bradford

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Meaning in old Chinese is highly dependent on context, for both words and phrases.
Some of the statements can mean the same thing wherever they appear, but some, and especially Wu Jiu (No Blame) and Li She Da Chuan (worthwhile to cross the great water) can mean (or at least imply) something different wherever they appear. "No blame, no praise" has a different implication here than it does at 02.4. In both, however, both blame and praise are just nuisances that shouldn't be blown up out of proportion.
 

charly

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Meaning in old Chinese is highly dependent on context, for both words and phrases.
... "No blame, no praise" has a different implication here than it does at 02.4. In both, however, both blame and praise are just nuisances that shouldn't be blown up out of proportion.
Hi, Brad:

Do you mean that there is a need to say those words when the contex is complex and it is not clear whether there is no blame or wether praise is going to be achieved?

Something like 2.4:
«Closing the bag, no blame, no praise.»
Even if someone could think that you have some responsibility and that the context looks a little disreputable.

Yours,

Charly
 

bradford

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I think in 2.4, avoiding the distraction of both blame and praise is the main point of hiding or hanging out in the bag. In 28.5 they would both just be noise compared to what you're going through, what with the heart wanting what it wants and whatnot.
 

Yasmin

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I once had 28.5 when I asked if it was a good idea to change the kitchen cabinet doors to give the kitchen a cheap facelift. I took is as " it may look a bit better but you won't get any additional functionality out of it".

I also got it in a relationship where despite being the same age, I was more mature than my partner.
 

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