29.4

[dobro p]

Bump.

Whatcha all think about the 'jail' idea for 29.4? Food being handed to a prisoner in a cell. Why else would you hand food to somebody through a window? It's not like they had drive-in fast food joints in those days...

 

[Sparhawk]

It's not like they had drive-in fast food joints in those days...

..., unless somebody stumbles on a big, arched "M", buried in a deep archaeological site, somewhere in the Shanxi province...

L

 

[bradford]

What about "double checking"? I just wonder if, in certain contexts, the meaning can be extended to that. L

I'd double check it. Might be twice the fun.
One thing I try to remember whenever I'm tempted to get stuck on a narrow meaning for a Chinese word - the central or core meanings will cover a lot more ground, especially in a text that isn't supposed to have its meanings narrowed down until a specific question is asked of it. The Chinese characters we're working with here have to cover the whole territory of existence and experience with only 8000 words. Our Western languages have hundreds of thousands. The meanings that we gloss the characters with have to stay broad enough to do this. One thing that helps is to keep the concrete symbolic imagery as just that, and not force them into abstract concepts. That way they can still flex to describe more situations.

 

[Sparhawk]

The Chinese characters we're working with here have to cover the whole territory of existence and experience with only 8000 words. Our Western languages have hundreds of thousands. The meanings that we gloss the characters with have to stay broad enough to do this. One thing that helps is to keep the concrete symbolic imagery as just that, and not force them into abstract concepts. That way they can still flex to describe more situations.

Understood, thanks! That's a very good point.

L

 

[ewald]

Yes, I think it was. In the 金文引得 collection of bronze inscriptions a vessel classified as the 五年召伯虎 gui (Vol. I, entry 5034) contains the following sentences (characters between () are the modern equivalent of the preceding character; X are characters that are not in Unicode):

弋(秘)白(伯)氏從X(許)。公宕其參 (叄)。女(汝)X(則)宕其貳。公宕其貳。女(汝)則宕其一。

I don't know how I should translate these lines and I could not find a translation in any of my books. But we have here in three following sentences the characters 叄, 貳 and 一. 叄 is the elaborate form for 'three', 貳 is the elaborate form for 'two', and 一 is 'one'. Even though I don't know how to translate these sentences, I guess it shows that 貳 had the meaning of 'two' in Western Zhou times. The 五年召伯虎 gui is dated in the later part of the Western Zhou dynasty.

Harmen.

I've been thinking about this. Actually, while there isn't a translation of these lines, I don't think they prove that these are eleborate forms.

I'm still considering the hypothesis that 貳 at first meant "double," and that "2" is in fact a derived meaning, that came into use later, when the need arose with the use of checks and such. This Chinese text doesn't falsify this hypothesis, while we don't know what it means.


(I'll be away for the next week.)

 

[hmesker]

I'm still considering the hypothesis that 貳 at first meant "double," and that "2" is in fact a derived meaning, that came into use later, when the need arose with the use of checks and such.

My 金文大字典 dictionary does not agree. It says that on bronzes the meaning of 貳 was simply 'two'. The inscriptions (there are more with this sentence pattern) might be seen as some sort of contract, as the text deals with the division of land between two parties (if I understand the text on this site http://www.xianqin.org/xr_html/articles/lgxd/436.html correctly).

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Not to let this line rest...

I just discovered something interesting. This morning I received a hard to find, Spanish translation of the Yi, by Carmelo Elorduy, a Jesuit priest. (Sorry, it is in Spanish but he's mentioned in the bibliography of Michael LaFargue's book, "Tao and Method. A Reasoned Approach to the Tao Te Ching") He went to China in 1923 to study Chinese; went back to Spain in 1929 and then back to China in 1934, where he stayed until 1955.

I've always wanted to check this translation because it is one of the very few serious and early translations of the Yi into the Spanish language.

Here is how he translated this line in Spanish (I'll offer my English version after that):

"Línea 4/6: Ofrece vino en un cubo de madera y mijo en cesta de bambú, además de vasijas de barro cocido. La pobre ofrenda ha sido colocada fuera, debajo de la ventana del templo. Al fin de cuentas, no comete falta o error alguno.
La figura dice: Vino en un cubo de madera y mijo en cesta de bambú. Se sitúa entre la dureza y la blandura."

He offers wine in a wooden bucket (sic) and millet in a bamboo basket, plus earthenware vessels ("barro cocido" = fired clay, thus "earthenware"). The poor offering has been placed outside, below the window of the temple. At the end, he commits no offense or error whatsoever.
The image says: Wine in a wooden bucket and millet in a bamboo basket. He places himself between hardness and softness.

The translation is quite a flourish one, indeed. The interesting thing is that "he" derived this meaning from the original Chinese characters. While many translators try, more or less, to "transliterate" (as much as that is possible with a non alphabetical language), and thus economize in meanings and abstractions, others go well beyond the call of duty and spill what's really in their interpreting minds.

Luis

 

[Sparhawk]

I forgot to add the footnote Elorduy makes for the line...

Línea 4/6: Es también posición peligrosa, exterior en el kua superior. Para salvarse de su mala situación, ofrece sacrificios de su pobreza. La 4/6 es femenina. Simboliza el vacío de las vasijas en las que ofrece su vino y su mijo.

Line 4/6: This is also a dangerous place, exterior in the superior gua. To save himself from his bad situation, he offers the poor sacrifices he can give. 4/6 is female. Symbolizes the emptiness (void, vacuum) of the vessels in which he offers his wine and millet.

 

[hmesker]

That's not translating, that's interpreting. Gosh, how often can you bend the straight Yijing without making it crooked?

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

That's not translating, that's interpreting. Gosh, how often can you bend the straight Yijing without without making it crooked?

Harmen.

Ouch!! Hey, don't shoot the messenger! The book does says it is a "translation." Albeit a flourish one at that (i.e. an "interpretation" by any other name, if you wish) Actually, Carmelo Elorduy translated several Chinese classics to the Spanish language, like the Dao De Jing and Zhuangzi.

Now, his "translation" is based on the Chinese original (pardon the redundancy) not from something read in a Western language and then re-phrased in a personal "interpretation." If he's deriving an "interpretation," it is from the original.

BTW, I suppose you are talking about Elorduy "bending" the Yi. I only offered something that was new to me until this morning and found worthy of sharing.

L

 

[hmesker]

BTW, I suppose you are talking about Elorduy "bending" the Yi. I only offered something that was new to me until this morning and found worthy of sharing.

I know Luis, I wasn't referring to you, but indeed to Elorduy. I cannot imagine that someone gets this crap out of the Chinese original. It is Legge-ism with these words interjected that are not in the Chinese original, it is Cleary-ism because he does not seem to understand what he translates. At least that's what I think of it.

Harmen.

 

[Sparhawk]

Well, at least he wasn't translating Japanese haikus...

L

 

[Lavalamp]

This is such a long thread for a single line!

I wanted to add Hex 29, "the teachings of danger" might be also worded a bit differently, perhaps "Danger is your teacher." With line 29.4 your have a relating hex of 47 Oppression, and where there is some kind of implicit hostility in Hex 47, with Hex 29 I do not think that is the case. It occurs to me that in 29 you have a hex about the learning process, and some things are only learned by facing real dangers. For example a martial artist must face a certain danger, *love* certainly involves risk taking and exposing ones self to danger.

"If you are sincere you will succeed." The image of water flowing on repeatedly. "Be like water..." Bruce Lee. "The superior man ... carries on the business of teaching." This hex is on some level more about education and the learning process with serious subjects, than it is about actual danger itself, I think.

Also Liu Da-jun President of the China Zhouyi Society's interpretation of 29.4, references wine for a sacrifice, and "...(filling) the pot with wine by taking it with a spoon through a window. As a result, no calamity takes place." I think this ties in Rosada's feeling there is a rope, a connection between the people. There is a sincere connection (wine) or why would you be handing in rice or anything else through the window in the first place? It may not be a rope of obligation, but it is a sincere connection of heart.

Which leads to the idea that a window is not the front door of the house. There is an exchange of sincerity taking place through someone's window. Maybe this is something like "my parent's house is like a jail to me." So her love interest arrives through her bedroom window - maybe Mr. Liu's veiled reference? Or maybe in a hostile social environment sometimes you have to connect with some you care about (wine - sincerity, love) in a less public way. Nevertheless, the connection is there and the relationship develops, despite the restraints of the time - Hex 47, a hostile social environment, mental or physical exhaustion, etc.

- LL

 

[bradford]

I use the title Exposure, with implications of risk. There is danger when you aren't paying attention or being present, which is what Kan really requires of us.
My sweet little flower of a daughter climbs cliffs regularly in Yosemite, and brings both of my granddaughters and grandson up those ropes with her. But I'm not afraid. I use this image a lot in interpreting Kan, as well as the metaphor of white water rafting. Thrilling stuff, but you've gotta be paying attention.

 

[Mayorka]

Does anyone know if the translation of this line shows pregnancy or birth?

 

[EmMacha]

Interesting I've cast this line a lot during lockdown!

This is the advice I draw from it, and from this excellent thread

Good wine in a simple vessel, ​

Simple food on ordinary delph. ​

Keep it simple, eat well, but simply, while you are staying home to save lives.​

It is a dangerous situation, this virus everywhere that could kill you or someone you know. In some countries there are fierce hardcore knockdowns, in others it's more relaxed, but everywhere there is a sense of danger, whether it's the virus, or police stopping you if you travel beyond the 2km.
The 2m distance brings such a sense of danger too, in shops, around people; skirting around older people, seeing that everyone is starting to wear masks, hearing the helicopters arriving at the hospital, seeing the roads so empty... it's a palpable sense of danger!


I cast this line yesterday, after some hard difficulties with my teenagers. It was a tough day.

Late last night I received a video link from a young man (who occasionally chases me, but is too young for me! But we do text occasionally, we are friends)
It's a video about pottery traditions in Ireland, from the RTE archives.

Pottery - Earthenware!!!

Yi is so literal sometimes!

The message & video is a gift, there is something sacred inside the ordinary 'look at this video' text, and it's a freely given gift, something fine served simply, through the window (screen) of the smartphone.

We are all viewing the world through our screens right now, millions if not a few billion (might I suggest 2 billion?) either staying home by choice, or under "stay at home" orders, or in lockdown, or under strict quarantine all around the world.

It adds another layer of meaning to the image of fine wine & simple rice served through the window; something to ponder when reading or watching media online? Look for the simple freely given gifts coming through your window, the content ripple release freely?
(Maybe also means dont watch the big media paid TV / News?)

It's a very interesting line, especially now, during the Covid19 pandemic!

 

[Trojina]

I have also seen people literally handing food in to others through the window.

 

[kestrelw1ngs]

it is interesting, EmMatcha you brought this home to the pandemic.
today I was so tired of this funk I've been in, and instead of picking on the familiar worries the Yi is probably tired of, I asked "what is the source of my negative energy/thoughts?"
and received this line.

the Fan Yao of the discontented rich man in his gilded carriage, what Lavalamp says about the "hostile social environment" of 47 makes much sense out of what was initially quite a confusing cast for me.

it might be again, about what is coming through the 'window' of the screens. is the content being exchanged simple and coming from generosity?
tricking the 'evil spirits' of big media, and the virus itself, through simple heartfelt exchange/gifts.

could also have to do with the "thinking twice" and distrust, but it seems from this thread that is a dubious translation.