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29's dangerous(?) questions on the abyss

M

meng

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hmm, couple thoughts..

water is true to itself
water is formless
water conforms to and seeks the lowest place
water moves along the lines of least resistance

water upon water is habitual
the way water follows water in a river
following the course that's been cut out before

In regard to the other thread, I think you already know what you are advising yourself, but I don't see Yi as being partial to one way or the other. What matters is how you choose to shape your life. Delaying by vacationing will diminish your passion and ambitions, but if you gain happiness in another way, that is possible, but not promised.

So, my suggestion is to be like water: make and follow your way.
 

rodaki

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hi Meng!

some thoughts on what you said:

obviously the road of least resistance in terms of my thesis/vacation was to keep on working, comply that is with the path carved out by my professor (I'm back in line already working, just eased abit my rhythm)

what I find interesting though is the fact that choice then seems not to be a big part of being like water. Following the road of least resistance feels like choosing not to be forceful, not to impose any form, but rather take any form offered.
the cases where this is not true is when it is a moment of upheaval, rising above ordinary circumstances, forging new forms, sometimes even by destroying OR
when the volume of water makes up a great river which has already been through least resistance and has established its own form.

I'm thinking that maybe this has to do with mastery and apprenticeship.
As LiSe writes in her 29 notes,

The class A players had a memory of around 2,000 patterns, but the masters of around 50,000 patterns.

The master then is like a wide river, which, by repeating and augmenting has broadened, while the apprentice is still this small stream with few choices, not a form of its own, has to be docile . .

I wonder if the word 'danger' actually comes up that often in the chinese text
Maybe 29 is about the challenges of apprenticeship -challenges which are not to be dealt with forcefully, but with understanding your place and be in agreement to that and not to your aspirations -be ware of your ambitions for if they get too powerful they will be destructive,, the power of big choices/ big decisions is earned drop by drop perhaps?

my supervisor has commented on me knowing my place, being more modest, because I have my own ideas and sometimes maybe too forceful in laying them out

maybe then water and pit are the positive/negative sides of 29:
in one case you are still you but not assertive, so you flow
in the other you are too forceful and instead of finding a way out, you dig a hole for yourself

could this be a right trail?

rodaki
 

rosada

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Consider the sequence:
26. You're in school.
27. You absorb all the knowledge you can.
28. But just listening to other people's experiences wont tell you who you are.
29. Ya gotta get out there and walk your own walk.
This can be dangerous if you are dependent on other people's approval, but will turn you into a Master if you judge for yourself.
 
M

meng

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could this be a right trail?

Great thoughts, all. Thank you.

It's true that water is passive, moving along the lines of least resistance, however, the power of accumulated water can light a city, and can devastating to anything in its path when unleashed uncontrolled. Hence powerful potential and also danger.
 

rodaki

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Hi Rosada, yes, what you propose makes perfect sense from where I'm standing ;) . .

Meng, thanks for your input, without it (and other people's comments) none of this would come out, so from my view we're all in this together! :)

I'll still have to think about the 'mise-en-abyme' structure though -this is one of my obsessions :rolleyes:, along with ambiguous images like the duck/rabbit

rotate.htm


actually I find that such images share sth with chinese ideograms in their multiple meanings but still not many thoughts on that . .

take care

rodaki
 
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bradford

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29 isn't always danger or dangerous, but it's usually something
that demands, commands or deserves your undivided attention
or full presence - and a readiness to respond like water has.
 

rosada

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Also, I see it that by successfully experiencing this rite of passage one gains the self confidence to be able to be around other people without being pulled off center, that is one grows to 30., the hexagram about being an independent individual among other independent individuals.
 
M

meng

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Dependency is a fundamental nature of 30. But I agree with your 29 image.
 

rosada

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Okay, yes, 30 is Dependency but dependency on what? Not on others, but on the tao. So how about..
by no longer just innocently (25) studying the words and deeds of the past (26), but by intentionally deciding for himself what to focus his attention on, nourish himself with (27), the superior man will become able to stand alone undaunted (28) and walk in lasting virtue (29) dependent not on others, but only on the tao and his own inner clarity (30)?
 

rodaki

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ok, so in fact one is not to run away from 29 but learn how to work it (which sometimes means even to stay out of it)

hmm, now I also understand better LiSe's take on 29 :The teachings of danger
It is not only what danger teaches you by threatening you, but also the dangers you must face up to while being taught, the narrow streets of being face to face with the power of your teachers, water into water, being homogeneous but not identical, not even equals, this fine balance -yes, I think 'rite of passage' is a most eloquent way of putting it!

and taking it just a bit further . . maybe in 29 you are already among others, standing your own ground while belonging in a group, which again takes up a lot of skill to be both without feeling torn between different demands

having learned how to do that -sth which is tested again and again, every time you are facing a situation where you have to reconcile the general, social, group demands with your own, individual stance- you reach the state of 30, you are good for the group and in return they are beneficial for you, each dependent on the other but certainly distinct (ok I'm mostly repeating here, but it helps putting thoughts in order. . )

also from LiSe 29:
defense can come entirely out of one's skill. No fear interfering.

thus when you reach danger, do not run away from it in fear, learn its ways but don't let it turn you into its own, it is your fear that embalms you like a pit, it is in fear that danger rests
and also, when in danger do not put up walls, but be like water

the force of letting things be because no matter what they can not harm you
 
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rodaki

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and in terms of synchronicities:

when they show up they work as signs that you are in the flow. The stream they come from is bigger than yourself, more powerful, more wise. Accept them gracefully but don't loose yourself trying to follow them. Remember still that they are not about yourself specifically but about the rhythm of the world. As long as you can flow along them without loosing your own way you can be one.
 

rodaki

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well, i use 'you' but it's actually me . . no, not multiple personalities, but lots of inner dialogue ;)
 

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