3 sons that don't visit 12.1.6>17

[goddessliss]

Good morning to all,

I have 3 sons who all respectively left home around 17 years old. They are all confident, self-sufficient and responsible young men so I believe I did a great job in bringing them up for our World.
But they don't really ever come visit me - we are not estranged and in the bigger picture have a loving relationship.

The oldest one is married and has a 6 month old baby and every 2nd year they come for Christmas but this year they have said it is too much trouble although I only live 1 hour flight away from them and they go away a lot with their church group

so I have asked

Why don't M and S come to visit me Hexagram 12.1.6>17

Line 1 - may be talking about a conflict that S and I had recently which I believe we sorted out and progress has been made but is there more 'things' underneath it all that I am not aware of.

Line 6 - Looks like it does get sorted out but will this result in a visit??

Hexagram 17 - Following - well we are following each others initiative in a bid to have a stronger, healthier relationship for sure.

My youngest used to ring me all the time but he is not at all giving and one day also recently I had, had enough and let him know although again we have reconciled our differences, I believe anyway.
He lives only an hours drive away.

why doesn't K communicate with me like he used to -

Hex 64.2>35

Hexagram 64 trying to create order out of the chaos of the old way of our relationship and line 2 suggests he's not quite there yet. Hex 35 suggests to me there is progress though which I would agree with.
But still I am finding it difficult as a mum.

My middle son and I are the closest and he is not able to come visit at this time though rings me regularly.

- Liss

 

[kdedeaux4]

Hi Lis,

I rarely offer help in interpretations here, as I'm not at all confident in my ability to comprehend the beautiful and complex I Ching. So, please know that this is simply a few thoughts of my amateur understanding which may or may not be accurate....

I looked at Lise's interpretation for hex 12 and was struck by this:

Saying no is the prerequisite for individuality, for inner peace and for a rich and creative existence. Sometimes you need a time of no. After a hectic time with worldy pursuits, you have to come back, and then 12 feels like a clear glass of water after a hot dusty day.[/QUOTE]
It makes me wonder if your oldest son just simply needs to say no to a visit at this time due to some hectic life responsibilities(obstructions), perhaps with their infant and their church commitments they are somewhat overwhelmed with a busy schedule. As though saying no now will allow him to visit at a less hectic time and the visit could be better enjoyed and feel more like a nice escape than a responsibility.Lise's interp of Line 1 also seems to imply that he intends to "weed" out some other life stuff in order to make better room and time to schedule a relaxing and enjoyable visit with you.
And line 6 certainly confirms this train of thought and that it's certainly temporary:

The obstruction is temporary. First obstruction, later rejoicing.
When an obstruction lasts for a while, one gets to know it, one realizes what it is, its why and how, and that announces its end. What one knows, one can handle and overcome.

I do understand that this doesn't make it less hurtful or appease the fact that you will miss his visit! I'm sorry for your disappointment and can only imagine you were more excited than ever to spend time with your new little grandbaby(congratulations btw)! It does seem tho from this casting that he's recognizing his current life tasks are obstructing his ability to do some of the more enjoyable and meaningful things(like visit his Mum!) and that with this recognition, he will alter or better manage the other stuff in order to ensure these obstacles don't intererfere with his visit the next time.

~kd

 

[goddessliss]

Thanks for replying kdedeaux4,

I do understand he is very hectic and has many commitments with the church. It has been like this for a long time and his family has not come first for a very long time.
In regards to the grandchild, he appears a bit upset because his brothers and I have shown little interest, but I believe that is because he hasn't put family first we now (unintentionally) don't reciprocate. It is like having a friend who doesn't put any effort into maintaining the relationship you soon don't bother with them either.

So I do understand his busyness but at what point are we going to come first?

Your interpretation tells me that it is nothing more than the church so that is a good thing in terms of the bigger picture but yes it still hurts and upsets me.

- Liss

 

[Trojina]

Thanks for replying kdedeaux4,

I do understand he is very hectic and has many commitments with the church. It has been like this for a long time and his family has not come first for a very long time.
In regards to the grandchild, he appears a bit upset because his brothers and I have shown little interest, but I believe that is because he hasn't put family first we now (unintentionally) don't reciprocate. It is like having a friend who doesn't put any effort into maintaining the relationship you soon don't bother with them either.

So I do understand his busyness but at what point are we going to come first?

Your interpretation tells me that it is nothing more than the church so that is a good thing in terms of the bigger picture but yes it still hurts and upsets me.

- Liss

Not focusing on the readings much because you know by know i don't think questions about why others do things are much use....afterall what you need to know is what is your appropriate response/reaction. If I were to apply the 12.1.6>17 I'd take it he is actually doing the best he can to follow his path. He is trying to get out of being stuck by following his calling in some way

It is very sad if you only see your grandchild every 2 years when they are only a 1 hour flight away. In my experience when a couple have a new baby it is very difficult for them to make trips and it is usual at first anyway for the grandparents and other relatives to visit them. Especially grandmas....who are generally very much needed with a new baby !

The new parents are exhausted, maybe still not getting much sleep. Often the woman has the blues or feels stressed....and then theres all the stuff to take along. I mean a baby needs alot of stuff as you must know.

I have to say FWIW its my opinion it would be good for you to consider visiting them, especially if they are hurt you haven't shown much interest. Every new grandparent I have come across actually muslces their way in to see their grandchild...infact I have even seen 'battles of the grandparents' each parents families wanting equal access. Its a special thing, don't let it slip by you.....and don't spend any more time feeling neglected.
I think young men naturally just want to get on with their lives and are often bad at keeping their mums in the loop so I don't think you should take this personally. I just think you should book a flight, if possible, finances permitting, and get your hands on that baby they don't stay babys long afterall...

As for your youngest as I recall not so long ago he was a kind of go between for you and your ex and it worried you. So he's had alot on his plate and he needs to get his bearings emotionally.

I really wouldn't worry too much in your shoes Liss...as you say you did a good job of bringing them up. I am concerned though if you don't get to bond with the grandchild through expecting them to come to you because of your sense of neglect. When theres a small baby around that baby is the centre of the universe and the universe must come to it. I think its more like that these days than it used to be. People are much more child centred.


Would it be possible to go and stay for a few nights or are there obstacles to that ?

If that 12.1.6>17 applied to you it might be asking you to follow your heart out of this sense of stagnation.

 

[goddessliss]

Not focusing on the readings much because you know by know i don't think questions about why others do things are much use....afterall what you need to know is what is your appropriate response/reaction. If I were to apply the 12.1.6>17 I'd take it he is actually doing the best he can to follow his path. He is trying to get out of being stuck by following his calling in some way

It is very sad if you only see your grandchild every 2 years when they are only a 1 hour flight away. In my experience when a couple have a new baby it is very difficult for them to make trips and it is usual at first anyway for the grandparents and other relatives to visit them. Especially grandmas....who are generally very much needed with a new baby !

The new parents are exhausted, maybe still not getting much sleep. Often the woman has the blues or feels stressed....and then theres all the stuff to take along. I mean a baby needs alot of stuff as you must know.

I have to say FWIW its my opinion it would be good for you to consider visiting them, especially if they are hurt you haven't shown much interest. Every new grandparent I have come across actually muslces their way in to see their grandchild...infact I have even seen 'battles of the grandparents' each parents families wanting equal access. Its a special thing, don't let it slip by you.....and don't spend any more time feeling neglected.
I think young men naturally just want to get on with their lives and are often bad at keeping their mums in the loop so I don't think you should take this personally. I just think you should book a flight, if possible, finances permitting, and get your hands on that baby they don't stay babys long afterall...

As for your youngest as I recall not so long ago he was a kind of go between for you and your ex and it worried you. So he's had alot on his plate and he needs to get his bearings emotionally.

I really wouldn't worry too much in your shoes Liss...as you say you did a good job of bringing them up. I am concerned though if you don't get to bond with the grandchild through expecting them to come to you because of your sense of neglect. When theres a small baby around that baby is the centre of the universe and the universe must come to it. I think its more like that these days than it used to be. People are much more child centred.


Would it be possible to go and stay for a few nights or are there obstacles to that ?

If that 12.1.6>17 applied to you it might be asking you to follow your heart out of this sense of stagnation.

Thanks trojan - I know you are right here with a lot of things but they do get mega amounts of help from their church group. Unfortunately when I go to visit them most of the time they are standing over me in Judgement as they are pretty full on Evangelist Christians and according to them what I am doing in my life is so, so incredibly wrong.
This is actually what our recent conflict was about - I basically said stop doing it or you cannot expect any sort of close relationship with me. Both him and his wife have backed off considerably and have reached out to me but at this point I still hesitate to go there.
He also has a step-mum so to speak so there are actually 3 sets of grandparents and great grand parents but I note none of them are really spending much time being grandparenty - I am guessing for the same reason as mine.

Yep you are totally right about my youngest and I do understand he is trying to get the gist of who he is and where he fits into our World, maybe I'm just having a 'mum' moment - have a lovely day - Liss

 

[Trojina]

Thanks trojan - I know you are right here with a lot of things but they do get mega amounts of help from their church group. Unfortunately when I go to visit them most of the time they are standing over me in Judgement as they are pretty full on Evangelist Christians and according to them what I am doing in my life is so, so incredibly wrong.
This is actually what our recent conflict was about - I basically said stop doing it or you cannot expect any sort of close relationship with me. Both him and his wife have backed off considerably and have reached out to me but at this point I still hesitate to go there.
He also has a step-mum so to speak so there are actually 3 sets of grandparents and great grand parents but I note none of them are really spending much time being grandparenty - I am guessing for the same reason as mine.

I see....it must be pretty impossible. I met someof these types the other day. They are rare in England so I had a shock. They told me everyone was going to hell except people who believed what they did. Couldn't believe my ears.....I don't know what exactly evangelical christians are but those people scared me to death.

 

[moses]

family.... can't choose em!

Thanks trojan - I know you are right here with a lot of things but they do get mega amounts of help from their church group. Unfortunately when I go to visit them most of the time they are standing over me in Judgement as they are pretty full on Evangelist Christians and according to them what I am doing in my life is so, so incredibly wrong.
This is actually what our recent conflict was about - I basically said stop doing it or you cannot expect any sort of close relationship with me. Both him and his wife have backed off considerably and have reached out to me but at this point I still hesitate to go there.
He also has a step-mum so to speak so there are actually 3 sets of grandparents and great grand parents but I note none of them are really spending much time being grandparenty - I am guessing for the same reason as mine.

Hi Godess,

okaaaaaaaay, I think I do see thiis and agree with Trojan to some degree also!

The thing is with Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, and many other Envangelists, is that some may not understand is just how involving it is and quite how much effort goes into living that life. There is such a high devotion to God and "law" and stuff. However weird it may seem from the outside.... It's actually quite admirable IMHO. But hey, that is MHO.

Wilhelm says: " If it becomes impossible to make our influence count, it is only by retirement that we spare ourselves humiliation. Success in a higher sense can be ours, because we know how to safeguard the value of our personalities. "

Anyway, firstly I can see why it hurts, but I agree that he is probably doing his best to live life in the way he sees fit, but the Hexagram 12 is quite definite it it's line 6 where, and I'll quote Wilhelm:

"The standstill does not last forever. However, it does not cease of its own accord; the right man is needed to end it."

It also says, "The time of disintegration, however, does not change back automatically to a condition of peace and prosperity; effort must be put forth in order to end it."

Well.... In this case.... Who is the right man?

From what I understand, so very far from the situation of course, the following could well be you going over to see him for some days, maybe going to "church" with him and the family.... Going with the flow of following (?)

Sounds to me it might actually be fun After all "a condition of peace and prosperity" is awaiting, but not without effort.

Again Wilhelm says:

When ribbon grass is pulled up, the sod comes with it.
Each according to his kind.
Perseverance brings good fortune and success.

Well, in line with this...You'll always be his mum Godess, and he'll always be your son Maybe to put away the hurt could be a really good first move toward "a condition of peace and prosperity" and who knows, as above suggests.. maybe he will follow. BTW... Both line are good fortune lines!

Love you,

Moses

 

[moses]

ahhhh, sorry, I forgot to say... sometimes Yi just cuts to the chase... doesn't 'answer' the question, but just tells you what you need to know! (like any good oracle!)

But I'm pretty sure you knew that already!

I can't wait to hear how well it all worked out! x

 

[meng]

Hi Liss,

I think the Yi answered your question directly, and describes the way a new generation, a young family separates from parents and traditions in order to develop their own family life and declare their independence - follow their own dream.

 

[goddessliss]

I see....it must be pretty impossible. I met someof these types the other day. They are rare in England so I had a shock. They told me everyone was going to hell except people who believed what they did. Couldn't believe my ears.....I don't know what exactly evangelical christians are but those people scared me to death.

Well trojan - my son and his wife are not much different to this in their belief system and sometimes it is a bit tough to deal with

 

[goddessliss]

Hi Liss,

I think the Yi answered your question directly, and describes the way a new generation, a young family separates from parents and traditions in order to develop their own family life and declare their independence - follow their own dream.

Hey Meng thanks for responding. I had a phone call with him a couple of days ago and as it turns out it is exactly as you say it here. but with me as the one he is separating from apparently.

Long history short, I always supported, accepted whatever he has done in his life, doesn't mean I necessary liked it and as I pointed out to him not long ago I have never, ever interfered in his life since he was old enough to make his own decisions without any suggestion from me.
But on the other hand, he has struggled for many years to maintain a relationship with his father and his wife and his extended family because of his belief system. but now that has reversed itself as they have been now bonding because of the new grandchild which I thought wasn't happening.
My son words were 'you know mum most of my family lives close by so I don't really see the need to come visit you'.

- Liss

 

[goddessliss]

Hi Godess,

Well, in line with this...You'll always be his mum Godess, and he'll always be your son Maybe to put away the hurt could be a really good first move toward "a condition of peace and prosperity" and who knows, as above suggests.. maybe he will follow. BTW... Both line are good fortune lines!

Love you,

Moses

Hey Moses, thanks for your interpretation and thoughts. I have decided to put away the hurt and just let it all go - empowers me and makes me feel less hurt and sad. - Liss

 

[Trojina]

Good idea, not to feel hurt, because synchronistically while I was answering this thread a few days back I found a thread where you said each of your 3 sons had thanked you for how you bought them up...that you bought them up to find their own path/beliefs,.can't find it now...and then I came across this today http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=15089 I suspect you need not feel as hurt as you do at all. I think it might be more like you are having a slight depression without being aware of it and all your negative thoughts are surfacing and attaching themselves to sons visiting issues...maybe ? I mean that linked thread isn't a happy one but it does show he turns to you when he's low doesn't it. Many sons wouldn't do that.

I think it may be more than coincidence that I have accidentally come across that thread of yours where you say how they have all actually told you of their appreciation. I should have linked to it then to remind you I think just incase you have temporarily forgotten the good bits

 

[goddessliss]

Tnankyou trojan for taking the time to respond and remind me of those threads.

I have found more than once, looking at my old threads reminds me of where I have been and how far I have moved forward and also of the moments such as these - a bit like a diary.

- Liss

 

[mazaru]

This looks to me like it's saying there is a natural attraction that can not be resisted. And that the standstill will eventually come to an end and they wil come back to you. Hope I read this right.
Hugs!!

 

[goddessliss]

This looks to me like it's saying there is a natural attraction that can not be resisted. And that the standstill will eventually come to an end and they wil come back to you. Hope I read this right.
Hugs!!

Haha funny you should say this today mazaru - they have all done an about face and a particular phone call from my youngest yesterday showed he has returned to me so to speak. - LIss

 

[mazaru]

That is so good to hear Liss.
I love happy endings!