35.2<64 -- encouraging or discouraging?

[equinox]

Hello,

today I got the very rare chance to talk a brief moment with the workmate I really like. I was polite and friendly, but at the same time I found myself reserved and shy, even if he was keen on keeping the conversation up. But I find he was also a bit insecure. Immediately after the talk I asked the I-Ching if it really was so bad and how it could go on between us. I find the answer rather descriptive, reflecting my dissatisfaction. But I can't say if it's more encouraging or discouraging. I would be happy about your opinons. And if somebody ask themselves if I am a teenager I am not, only too shy when I like somebody.

Best regards and thank you, black milk

 

[equinox]

hexagram 35.2

 

[oceangirl]

Hi blackmilk the reading says to me that Progress has been made despite the difficulty in being able to communicate as you would like. Is there a work restriction on being able to normally talk with this person?It seems this is a challenge for you to take up despite your shyness as it is for you to learn to overcome something.

 

[equinox]

Thank you, oceangirl. The thing is, this man and me have a strong chemistry and I fear everybody around us could feel this too. I already experienced it a few times that people noticed it. One friend of mine already made a joke about it, when I was alone with her, so I know that it's not just my fantasy playing tricks on me. There is no formal restriction like a ban but you are right, I feel indeed restricted. I mean, if it would end up in being a true and sincere relationship, no one could say anything against it. But if it wouldn't work out it would be just an office flirt most probably surrounded by gossip. That's the reason why I feel inhibited in approaching him.

 

[Trojina]

Hello,

today I got the very rare chance to talk a brief moment with the workmate I really like. I was polite and friendly, but at the same time I found myself reserved and shy, even if he was keen on keeping the conversation up. But I find he was also a bit insecure. Immediately after the talk I asked the I-Ching if it really was so bad and how it could go on between us. I find the answer rather descriptive, reflecting my dissatisfaction. But I can't say if it's more encouraging or discouraging. I would be happy about your opinons. And if somebody ask themselves if I am a teenager I am not, only too shy when I like somebody.

Best regards and thank you, black milk

Hilary's translation from wikiwing

'Now prospering, now apprehensive.
Constancy, good fortune.
Accepting close-woven chainmail,
Blessing from your grandmother.'

I think it is most certainly an encouraging reading. It is a very kindly reading as if Yi understands the apprehension, the uncertainty and is soothing it saying everything will be alright. Accepting protection from your grandmother is quite a mysterious line but my perception of it, my experience of it is this is not something to worry about. There's a blessing here and protection and it's from your grandmother. So this is a motherly wise ancestor who sees your worries and bestows on your some kind of invisible blessing making sure you will be alright. So this is a matter in which the spirits (if you believe in them) have noticed, are with you, reassuring you. If you feel anxious about this it is worth taking it in your mind to the most wise motherly ancestor you had and feel her advice, feel her protection, what might she say to you ? Nothing has really gone wrong here though it might seem that way.

 

[rosada]

I think of hexagram 64, Before Completion, as describing the moment between when one chapter has finished and the next one has yet to begin. Like a No Man's Land where you're trying to figure out where you belong and where do you go from here? In this case I think it refers to the fact you two are talking as co-workers but also as friends and also as possibly something more plus there are all these other people around so you're trying to be very careful to act in an appropriate manner. Hexagram 35.2 is very encouraging for continuing. The reference to receiving a fine garment makes me think the next time you have a chance to speak you should mentally wrap yourself in your magical invisibility cloak so the prying eyes can't see you!

 

[equinox]

Trojina thank you for this insight, indeed the "grandmother" of 35.2 is the most confusing part of the line, I never could really make sense of it. And I never thought of the "grandmother" in 35.2 as a guardian angel. This is really a idea I love. After my mother died, my aunt often said to me: The spirit of your mother is your guardian angel now -- so of course I think now of her as the motherly ancestor.
Rosada, thank you for putting 64 in context to 35.2, it describes the way I feel in these developing times, obviously I have reasons to be cautious, but I can also hope for the protection of benevolent spirits.
Also the idea of a magic cloak is a lovely and creative approach on my situation.
So next time, I will call my guardian angel for wrapping a magic cloak around me that protects me from prying eyes and helps me a bit overcoming my shyness. Because you are right, oceangirl, it seems to be a (spiritual) task of mine to deal with it now. Often life confronts one with their weaknesses when they seem especially hard to overcome, but at least if you succeed in overcoming them then, you did it quite thouroughly. Good to have support from friendly spirits in such situations.

Thanks again to all of you three for your friendly and empowering comments.
I read them over and over and they are very helpful and precious to me.

 

[Liselle]

Reading through this, I can see how the emphasis could go either way, either that you are protected (more what Trojina said), or that there is something you need protection from (more what Rosada said and what you said originally). There's commonality there - protection - but from different angles. It might be important to figure out what angle pertains.

Personally, I've had this line several times about a particular situation, and for that one I've found it helpful to think of the "closely-woven chainmail" perhaps as a modern bullet-proof vest or body armor. Nowadays those are made of high-tech materials that are thinner and lighter than before, but, I'd think, still hot, uncomfortable, heavy, awkward etc. Much better than they used to be - but still not something you'd really want to wear - but necessary to put up with if you're in danger of being killed.

In my own situation, I feel constrained - mildly constrained if I'm objective about it, but it's still very annoying. But I know it's essential, and if I want to progress (35) I'd better "accept" it as the text says.

Also (in my situation) I can see the constraint as a transition (64), not an end in itself, and not something that will last forever (despite seeming that way ).

However as I said people have different experiences. Certainly the example in WikiWing sounds a lot more like what Trojina said, that you are protected, period, and despite your "apprehension" (the word from the text), you really have "nothing to worry about" (quoting er, paraphrasing, Trojina).

For all I know I have examples more like that, too, it's just that the ones that come to mind are what I described.

 

[moss elk]

Sometimes I wonder if this line has a bit of the 'grin and bear it' quality.


"Thank you Grandma,
I just love it."

 

[equinox]

Thank you for your elaborate answer, Liselle, yes, this aspect of feeling vulnerable with all that this implies is certainly there.
I asked how to proceed now and received hexagram 13.2.5.
13.2 to me clearly refers to the fact that we are workmates and that our constellation in this surrounding is embarassing at times.
And 13.5, I had this line three times in a row when I asked first about this man.
The first time I asked and received 13.5, I was wondering about the tears, because I was not the least sad because of him and just curious. Then I didn't see him for a long time and after we met again I started to like him a lot and understood about the tears.
And now again 13.5, this time together with line 2. I don't know if it is a prediction that it will end in happiness after a long time, or simply a description of our good chemistry. Well.

 

[equinox]

@Moss Elk
This pullover seems to be a perfect magic cloak against insecurities and prying eyes

 

[equinox]

I asked how to proceed now and received hexagram 13.2.5.
13.2 to me clearly refers to the fact that we are workmates and that our constellation in this surrounding is embarassing at times.

Does anyone by chance have a clue on this in the context on my matter? The lines are conflicting. Does it simply mean, 'you two have a great chemistry, but the setting is unfortunate' or could it desrcibe a sequence of events like, now it's embarassing and later it will be better.
Maybe relating hexagram 14 says something about it, but I do not have so much experience with 14 as a relating hexagram.
Thank you

 

[Liselle]

The lines are conflicting. Does it simply mean, 'you two have a great chemistry, but the setting is unfortunate' or could it desrcibe a sequence of events like, now it's embarassing and later it will be better.

13.2
'People in harmony at the ancestral temple. Shame.'
13.5
'People in harmony first cry out and weep, and then they laugh. Great leaders can bring them together.'

I think it could be either or both of what you're saying. As I'm sure you know, this reading can't be looked at in isolation. It has to be looked at in context with the 35.2 > 64, as well as other readings you've done. So for example you might think about what 35.2 > 64 says, and then what 13.2.5 > 14 might say as the next part of the conversation. Both together, as a real conversation.

Maybe relating hexagram 14 says something about it, but I do not have so much experience with 14 as a relating hexagram.

The relating hexagram can be different things, all to do with how you "relate" to the matter. It could be how you feel about it, what it seems like to you, the background or context. It doesn't usually mean "the future," and it's probably not a good idea to assume it does, but once in a while it means the future, what the situation could develop into. In that case, the lines might be advice on how to get from one to the other. (Realizing that you're not there yet, and there's no guarantee.)

This reading is especially interesting since 13 and 14 are in sequence, and they're also "pairs" of each other (if you flip one of them over, you get the other - look at them visually to see this). They are "Wings" of the I Ching - structural features that were studied long ago, and commentaries were written.

With the Sequence, it might help to go back one step, to hexagram 12, to see where your reading "came from," and look at the Sequence texts through 14.

(I'm assuming these Wings are important and meaningful in your reading - they probably almost have to be. But bear in mind I'm mentioning them without really know what I'm talking about Aside from the usual difficulties in interpreting and applying someone else's reading, I am not good with the Wings. Hilary is currently writing a course about the Sequence, but a course is one thing - experience, facility, and fluency are very much other things, which I do not possess. One thing that might be said is that the primary and relating hexagrams in this reading are even more tightly bound together than usual, since not only do moving lines connect them, but also these structural relationships.)

Anyway, here are the Sequence texts, copied from Hilary's translation:

People in Harmony follows from Hexagram 12, Blocked:
'Things cannot end with blockage, and so People in Harmony follows.'

(So read about 12, and think about how your reading might be "coming from" a state of 12-ness.)

Great Possession follows from Hexagram 13, People in Harmony:
'Reaching out to people in harmony means beings truly return home, and so Great Possession follows.'

And the Pair text:

People in Harmony forms a pair with Hexagram 14, Great Possession:
‘Great possession means crowds, People in Harmony means connecting.’

I find these texts confusing, personally. Do you have Hilary's book (https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/lea...ching-walking-your-path-creating-your-future/), or access to WikiWing? Hilary has written her own commentaries about the Sequence and the Pair which might help. Or if you have other books, look to see what (if anything) those authors have written about them.

Also, Hilary has said that the texts might have been written as mnemonics - shorthand memory aids. As such they might have the benefits and shortcomings of any other mnemonic, such as they might be an important pithy summary, but they're not comprehensive.

Making a feeble stab at the Pair - I believe Stephen Karcher, a well-known I Ching translator, has said that you should always think about the Pairs when looking at a reading, because a hexagram and its Pair are a unit. (And in this case you actually received both 13 and 14.) The Pair is a contrast (there are other structural contrasts, too), so it can be a way of seeing what a hexagram is "not." (In the Pair, it's what the hexagram looks like when you walk around it and see it from the opposite direction.)

So in this case, while yes your reading is both 13 and 14 together, 13 is the primary hexagram, while 14 is the relating hexagram. It could be a matter of emphasis, where the primary hexagram is emphasized. After all, Yi could have given you the reading the other way around, 14 > 13, but it didn't. Your moving line messages are lines of 13, not 14.

One of the analogies Hilary has written about for combining hexagrams is to think of them as a chemical reaction which produces the moving lines. In other words - if I'm getting this right - if you drop hexagram 14 into a vat of hexagram 13, what do you end up with? Lines 13.2 and 13.5. That might be worth pondering.

There are probably many ways of thinking of 13 and 14 as a combination.

Your question was "How to proceed?" The reading might be about "how to proceed with this relationship while at the same time tending to harmony." Harmony between just the two of you, harmony within your workplace...

It might help to think about possible outcomes, and how to preserve harmony regardless:

(a) how to preserve harmony/ies if the two of you become a couple
(b) how to preserve harmony/ies if you definitely don't
(c) how to preserve harmony/ies in the interim (where you are now, kind of in limbo)

Do any of the texts, moving lines and the rest, seem like they might be clues?

A specific thing in 13.5 is "Great leaders can bring them together." It's sometimes helpful to think of both external and internal explanations. So who or what is the "great leader"? It might be a person, either you or the man you're interested in acting as a leader, stepping forward and taking charge of what's happening. It might be a third party. Do you have a mutual friend? Internally, it might be the inner wisdom of one or both of you. Or, I suppose it might be previous readings.

Obviously I can't say what any of this is exactly.

One way of possibly combining them - there are probably many - might be something like:

How to proceed?
"Proceed by staying aware of the danger here (gossip, embarrassment), and let your inner wisdom ('great leader') show you the way forward, so that you can end up 'laughing' instead of 'crying and weeping'." That's 13.5 more as advice rather than a statement of fact or a prediction.

 

[Liselle]

[Edited: I noticed - see post #16 - that you already answered this. Sorry...ignore... ]
---

Ahem - I've been assuming 14 refers to your relationship as a "great treasure" - and it might, but it also might not. In the context of work it could also mean "great asset" as your ability to make a living? Maybe you should read a lot more about 14 to try to decide that. Have you gotten 14 in other readings on this subject?

Why I'm saying this - it occurred to me that you got 13 changing to 14, not 13 changing to 31 or some other hexagram that is more obviously about love, attraction etc.

Does your workplace have rules about workplace relationships? (Er, did I ask you that before and forget what you said? :bag

I mean, in the olden days when two people at a workplace got together and got married, as far as I could tell everyone was happy for them, and now it seems everyone's just worried about the potential workplace problems. [Edited - by the way, not saying those aren't real.] Workplaces didn't used to have rules about it (as far as I know), and now they do. You live now, though, not then, so you have to be cognizant of what is.

Actually....hm, that could be part of what 13.2 is getting at, maybe. 13.2 can mean a "golden past," or at least us thinking of the past as golden, possibly through the hazy eyes of having survived it. Not sure.

 

[Liselle]

Having said all that, it still could be about navigating all this with an eye to preserving various harmonies, rather than a dire warning of Do Not Go There.

I can't remember your other readings - have you ever gotten any that sounded like "Do Not Go There"?

 

[Liselle]

Does your workplace have rules about workplace relationships? (Er, did I ask you that before and forget what you said? )

Thank you, oceangirl. The thing is, this man and me have a strong chemistry and I fear everybody around us could feel this too. I already experienced it a few times that people noticed it. One friend of mine already made a joke about it, when I was alone with her, so I know that it's not just my fantasy playing tricks on me. There is no formal restriction like a ban but you are right, I feel indeed restricted. I mean, if it would end up in being a true and sincere relationship, no one could say anything against it. But if it wouldn't work out it would be just an office flirt most probably surrounded by gossip. That's the reason why I feel inhibited in approaching him.

Well look what's here if only I'd remember what's in the thread. Sorry.

No rules, but gossip, and who wants to be gossiped about. (I wouldn't.)

So maybe 14's not about preserving your job, and is "the relationship." So perhaps back to maintaining harmony while trying to pursue a possible relationship?

(Argh, I'm babbling myself deep into a hole. This is a special talent of mine. Will stop now.)

 

[Liselle]

Except - another way to look at 14 - Hilary has described it in WikiWing as "You have all you need for this..." - and look at 14's Image:

Fire dwells above heaven. Great Possession. A noble one ends hatred and spreads the good, She yields to heaven and rests in her mandate.

So - and I think this might fit nicely with 35.2 > 64 - maybe the small interactions you're already having with him will be enough, and "heaven" will take care of the rest if you "yield" to it and give it time?

 

[equinox]

Hello Liselle, thank you very much for you answer. I am going to think about it and will write back tomorrow Have a nice evening.

 

[equinox]

So - and I think this might fit nicely with 35.2 > 64 - maybe the small interactions you're already having with him will be enough, and "heaven" will take care of the rest if you "yield" to it and give it time?

Thank you for this reminder, it's indeed what I should do.

I'm assuming these Wings are important and meaningful in your reading - they probably almost have to be.

It's good that you emphasized the importance of hexagram 14 here -- I believe this too. I tried one method hilary suggests on her blog article about multiple moving lines (suggested by Gary Bastoky and Bradford Hatcher, https://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/learn/interpreting-the-i-ching/multiple-moving-lines/#reading), again I received 14 as the final relating hexagram:
13.2>1
1.5>14

Ahem - I've been assuming 14 refers to your relationship as a "great treasure" - and it might, but it also might not. In the context of work it could also mean "great asset" as your ability to make a living? Maybe you should read a lot more about 14 to try to decide that. Have you gotten 14 in other readings on this subject?

No, not in context of this matter but of others and I must say it always left me a bit baffled because of its complexity. In one case, with changing lines, it was quite clear: There is this line 14.3 that suggests that one has to achieve real greatness in not regarding „what he possesses as his exclusive personal property“ (Wilhelm). In my personal experience it meant to letting go of somebody that I really loved. So I had to let go my „asset“, which was the relationship and on the other hand I regarded this inner strength to let go (more or less graceful ) as an „asset“.
Hexagram 14 looks very simple at first sight, but I think it's really complex.

As I'm sure you know, this reading can't be looked at in isolation. It has to be looked at in context with the 35.2 > 64, as well as other readings you've done.

Well, the other readings, I did too many of them. First as I mentioned it was significant, that I had 13.5 threee times in a row, at the very beginning, first time when I was even just curious on the guy. So I took the result 13.5 more as an prediction than an advise. But who knows? I will definitely keep you updated


Thank you very much for your answer(s). They were really helpful.
By the way I love the metaphor of throwing hexagram 14 in a vat of hexagram 13.