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35.4

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candid

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35.4

This really isn't a big thing.
It is an important small thing.

Like a mouse, going about his business in secret: Not exposing, not debating. Working quietly to live in essentials.

Great ideas live securely in rhetoric.
Life grows out of compost.
Danger!
 

bradford_h

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Candid- RE:

"But I can not buy the moral value attached to Brad's assigned (read: written in stone) negative association."

Shame on you.
I didn't say a thing about morals. I think you freaked out when you saw the word ethics, read it as morals and then misunderstood my point completely.

For future reference, ethics is the branch of philosophy which examines the meaning of right and wrong in their various hues. Something the Yi does a lot of.
Morals is a set of social behavioral rules, more often than not unexamined. Something the Yi doesn't do.
 
C

candid

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Brad,

It's all good. I got a lot from your translation. I apologize if I was offensive or defensive. We are of different natures, and by confronting you and your ideas I hopefully get to the essence of not just your art, but the artist. That's how I learn. Not from books but from exchange.

No, I like ethics, very much. What gets my gander though is how definitions are perceived as life, and how teachers of Yi can lie dormant within these definitions. Granted, they are important, and often Great! But they are not always life or life-giving. And perchance the Masters learn something from the mouse ? all the better.
 

hilary

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Martin:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Summary:
- I don't want to be seen (stealth)
- There is something that I can't see (the unknown)
- I don't look deep enough (superficiality, lack of focus)

Yes?<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes!
I think I've come to the same ideas by a different route. In Rutt I found the idea that this was a harvest-stealing and -spoiling rodent. I imagine there is a huge store of grain for all, but the squirrelly rodent isn't big enough to see the great heap. It 'prospers' from its own perspective (where else?), but it always feels threatened.

I think persistence in this way is dangerous - for humans - because the fearful motivation and/or limited perspective undermine you and warp your tactics. But after reading through this thread my reading of this line will get a lot more neutral, less polarised.

I've found the 5-skills beastie applies in practice sometimes, too. "Running around, doing many things, and at the end of the day hardly anything has been done." Oh good grief, yes. A consequence of prospering - seeing opportunities everywhere, running after them all at once. Lots of squirrelly energy and not a fat lot happens.
 

bradford_h

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Maybe we're pronouncing it wrong.
Try this way, in a raspy, slightly raised voice:

Scwam, you wascawwy sqwiwwewwy wodent!

And-
Wrong does not just mean morally wrong. It is wrong and inappropriate for a square peg to fit in a round hole. But it doesn't need to go to confession for trying.
You can go the wrong way on a one way street. This might build character anfd hone your driving skills.
You can have the wrong technique with a bow and arrow. But it's only morally wrong when you lie about what happened to your neighbor's dog.
 
C

candid

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Maybe I just watched "Mouse Hunt" one too many times. A light comedy with Nathan Lane and Lee Evans. Very funny movie. The mouse thwarts the brothers' plans of an easy life through their father's inheritance. In the end the mouse shows them a legitimate way of making it on their own.

Anyone else see it?
 

heylise

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Candid: ?Anyone else see it?...?

This thread left me with question marks. Obviously I did not get the idea, and neither anybody else. So I gathered several remarks which seemed important.
First: ?a spider or a coyote: the blueprint is inherent rather than contrived.?
Because thinking (contriving) obviously had not given any result, I tried to look at it with not-thinking eyes. So I locked LiSe in the closet and tried the spider, but I cannot recommend that. I had to put soothing drops in my eyes, and they still feel like square pegs trying to fit in round holes. And did anyone ever try to look at a mouse with spiders? eyes? HUGE!
So I tried the coyote, and that did the trick! Not right away, a coyote seeing a mouse ... yummy yummy. But slowly something dawned.

Quoting:
?a good subject to ponder ...?, so it is not a question about any activity
?This really isn't a big thing.
It is an important small thing.
Like a mouse, going about his business in secret: Not exposing, not debating. Working quietly to live in essentials.?
?everything they do is essential to their existence ... and to the entire ecology of this world ...?
?Covert, concealed, stealthy progress?
?a light that can not be seen during a time of progress? ... 36 ...

Many things in life seem small when you look at them with the mind you have built up with all your experiences in the world of society. All things get a value there, according to what most people agree with. That has nothing really to do with their real value or meaning. Everything is part of creation, a human mind cannot judge what is important or not. If you have an open mind, everything is just there, as it is.
Small things are just as important, because they are part of life. Like animals, an elephant is not more than a mouse. It is even something like being without faith, not seeing ?life? if you compare them that way, not accepting creation the way it is.

?Perseverance brings danger.? It doesn?t say misfortune. Just, danger.
Even when you look without making any difference between all things, determination is dangerous. Even in this, you should not be rigid, and not judging, but all the same it is not right to give everything always the same importance. Because everything changes every moment, and every time you see anything, it is new again. And you have to be new too yourself.
The way to look at creation and be part of it, is to be totally new and open every time.

The squirrel, or the mouse, does small things, which make his life. Especially because they are small, his own size. Big ideas are not essentials, they cannot shape a life.

So when I look at this line, and I see only the good or bad it got, the advice or the warning, then I overlook the most important part. I forget to see life, the way it is present in every hexagram, and in every line.
This line tells about living, doing things small when life is about being small. Telling me those (or my) concealed, quiet, small things are important. They are an essential part of life, and thus also of progress.
Not teaching me anything about good or bad, but telling a story about life.

My first reaction on any line or hexagram is always ?what did I wrong, or what should I do right?. What the hell am I afraid of?? Afraid of being wrong ... wanting Yi to correct me, or tell me what a clever girl I am.

From now on I am going to look every time first of all with coyote?s eyes. I can always get a second look to see what I can do.

progress like a mouse ... this hex has to do with multiplying ... only a mouse who knows how to hide will become a lot of mice.

coyote
 
C

candid

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coyote,

Grateful to you. Not because you agree with anything I?ve said (you?ve known it all along) but because you understand what I was trying to say, and I think what Yi is saying in 35.4 too.

Being a mouse can be risky business. Especially when he runs into a room filled with giant feet, and minds to match.

zen2.gif
 

heylise

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All things are complete in Dao, Zhuangzi (13:6)

Dao is not exhausted in the great
Nor is it lacking in the small
Thus all things are complete in it.
So vast, so expansive
There is nothing it does not contain.
So deep, so profound
How could it be fathomed?
Good will and morality
Are mere trifles to the spirit
Yet who but the perfected man could know this?

(not sure about the number of the verse. I found it as a quote, but could not find it back in Zhuang Zi)
 

martin

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Coincidence (?) - after reading through the recent posts in this thread I asked the Yi about a situation that upsets me and got, well, not 35.4 but the corresponding line 35.1.
It seems to address my state of mind very accurately but I'm not sure if it advises action or not. What do you think?
(maybe I should explain the situation but it's quite a story and I don't want to hijack this thread)
 

martin

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If there is a mouse perspective in 35.4, there is perhaps an elephant perspective in 35.1 (large and generous mind).
Not that it matters, ultimately. The One lives as the elephant and as the mouse. Who is the biggest?
 
C

candid

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Martin, my head is still hurting from sorting through line 4. Evidence I haven?t arrived anywhere near perfection or saginess bliss. (thanks bobby for the new vocabulary)

What comes to mind though is a preparatory stage. Before setting out across a body of water, it?s well to check to make sure you have enough fuel or wind, life jacket, food and water, a compass, etc. to complete the crossing safely. So, determination works in your favor, but preparation first assures the undertaking's success.
 

martin

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Thank you, Candid, that makes sense. I'd better buy a good sleeping bag before I start climbing this Himalaya.
happy.gif


Don't know if my head hurts (it feels kind of numb) but this thread begins to look
spin.gif
to me. Perspectives keep changing. Perhaps this _is_ sqwuiwwewwwike pwogwess?
 
C

candid

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chuckles

I dunno, Martin. I certainly got what I asked Yi for. And then some. But I've found a bit more strength and resolve too. If the Yi does not edify, we aren't reading it correctly. If we need tearing down, it's only to be built back up, with better reliability. To do that requires risk. It's easier to take a watch apart than to put it back together. But if it runs more accurately, it was all worth it. Time will tell. Always does.
 
A

anon

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llp here.

blofeld says: "squirrel like progress - persistance would have serious consequences...this implies trying to rise too high and advance too quickly"

seems you can't force understanding of the yi. it reveals itself in a timely manner. might have to put the reese's down and wait until you can fully savor it.

llp
 

martin

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That is exactly what I had in mind! Geeze, is it not enough that Brad took my picture in broad daylight? Do you also have to read my thoughts? Don't you guys have any respect for my privacy?
What's next, an X-ray?
Talking about serious consequences, if you go on like this I will bite you!
angry.gif


Squirrel
 

Sparhawk

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Yes, that's a New York squirrel on a trip to Cancun...
happy.gif


L
 

heylise

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Martin, you are not hijacking, this thread is not about a particular line, but about a way of looking at any line, or hexagram.
If I try to look at this one the way Candid talks about, then it should be something like:

35.1: Then advancing, then arrested. Determination auspicious. Be a net, be true. To be rich: no fault.
Reality does not always permit you to advance. Time and again you will hit against some obstacle. So in this situation your perseverance will help you. Here no danger, like in 35.4.
The way to go on and on, in spite of all those drawbacks, is to be true to yourself, and to everyone, everything, you encounter. Like growing plants, they can overcome most obstacles by relentlessly going on being themselves, sending a tiny root through a tiny crack, growing around a stone, simply going on and not letting anything stop them.
And being like a net means to be open to anything coming your way. A net has to be put at a strategically right place, or it will not catch anything, but once it is there, you can calmly wait and see what swims into it.
I have no idea what ?being rich, no fault? could mean. If anybody has any ideas?

LiSe
 
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candid

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"be true to yourself, and to everyone, everything you encounter" "be true to yourself, and to everyone, everything you encounter" "be true to yourself, and to everyone, everything you encounter" "be true to yourself, and to everyone, everything you encounter"

Sorry. I thought it worth repeating.
hex61.gif

(fu consists of a claw grasping a child or small person)
 

martin

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Thank you, LiSe and Candid.
It's amazing that you came up with FU, Candid. The question was about a child, my son, nearly 11 years old now. I can't see him because the mother doesn't allow it. She ended the relationship when she was pregnant and has since then behaved as if I don't exist.
The "claw" in the character FU could be hers and/or mine.
So FU applies literally here. (and is there not also another character called FU - it looks like X - that means 'father'?)
The night before I asked the Yi I found a picture of my son on the web. It didn't really register, I tend to react slowly emotionally (moon in Taurus?!), but the next day I suddenly started to feel very upset.
Phantasy's about writing her an angry letter. "How can you do this to me?". No no, that would certainly not help. Then what? Earlier (friendly) efforts to contact her, directly and through her friends, had all failed and I had more or less given up. No use talking to a wall that doesn't want to talk back. And life goes on. But this picture did it, damned, why should I accept this any longer?
I went shopping with a head full of noise
rant.gif
. There was probably smoke coming out of my ears, because the cat of the neighbors jumped under a parked car as soon as she saw me. Which is unusual.
biggrin.gif

Back home, after reading this thread, I asked the Yi something like "what will come of this?", but the question was not really in words, I just kept the situation in mind. And the Yi said 35.1

"Be a net", "calmly wait and see what swims into it". Yes, LiSe, I think I understand that. I'm watching my radar screen. In fact I'm doing that already for some time. I feel that something is coming. I don't know yet what it is, said the spider, but my web moved. Hopefully it is a fly and not an elephant ..
The web also started to move a few months before I actually met the mother of my son, before I knew who she was or what she looked like. She somehow made her presence felt. I don't think that she was an elephant. When she left the web needed quite a lot of repairing, though. Big fly?

"To be rich: no fault." My first impression when I read that was that it means that I have something to give to my son. And that begging for contact with him (as if I'm poor) is not the way to go. Fits with "being true to myself", I think. That implies having confidence in myself and in what I can give.

Thanks again, LiSe and Candid, I appreciate this very much.
happy.gif
 
C

candid

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Sounds like great application, Martin. A strong, stable but yet cautiously reserved approach. 35.1 changes to 21. Contrary to popular opinion, I don?t see 21 play out as filing a lawsuit or taking punitive action ?against? someone. Rather, I see it as 1) restraint of disturbing emotions 2) gathering information and keeping inner strength and composure 3) preparing to take action or make an important decision. So, unlike 55, where action is required by the time, 21 builds a good case, with inner resolve.

For what it?s worth, I didn?t get to meet my birth-son, who was given up for adoption when I was a teen, until he was 23 years old. Back then, a parent was not allowed to initiate contact with the child. But when the time came, he sought me out. Actually he sought his birth mother out, and we were married when we met him. He?s turned out very well and we?ve become close friends.

I wish you perfect success with this. I can certainly understand your emotions.

Candid
 

martin

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Thank you, Candid. My son lives in the same city, not far from where I live, so it's not impossible that he will visit me soon. Well, if he knows of my existence and if he knows where I live. And even if he knows that, he still has to do it, it's probably a rather big step for him. Oh, maybe he'll find a sneaky way ..
happy.gif
 
C

candid

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I'm resurrecting this because I believe I've gained insight into 35.4 since leaving this thread.

The mouse, hamster, rodent is a tenacious little critter. It persists in its task without relent and with undivided focus; whether it's gnawing at a rope or a topic. Progressing this way certainly leads to danger.
 

incognito

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Just because you're naked
doesn't mean you're sexy.
Just because you're cynical
doesn't mean you're cool.
You may tell the greatest lies
and wear a brilliant disguise
but you can't escape the eyes
of the one who sees right through you.

In the end what will prevail
is your passion, not your tale,
for love is the Holy Grail,
even in Cognito.

So better listen to me sister,
and pay close attention, mister:
It's very good to play the game,
amuse the gods, avoid the pain.
But don't trust fortune; don't trust fame.
Your real self doesn't know your name,
and in that we're all the same.
We're all incognito
 

kestrelw1ngs

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Opening this old thread to spout off a Billy Joel lyric:

"You can see where you're wrong,
but you can't always see where you're right"

Maybe the rat is that crazy child, ahead of itself for a juvenile....:lalala:not trusting that Vienna awaits!
 

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