36.1.4-62

[Lodestar]

I met a guy, I guess I wasn't as keen as he was, but I was still interested, at least in friendship.
But he just cut off and disappeared. My experience of men is that they can be really heartless that way. No niceties, no friendship.. Whereas I wouldn't dream of just cutting anyone off, I'd be gentle. It feels extremely harsh and it hurts me a lot.

(But is he sensible? and maybe I wouldn't have the strength to let go, as I form attachments so easily.)

Why won't he just wish me well/reply to my text? (Which wasn't asking for anything, just wishing him a fun christmas)
36.1.4-62

Wing: You are in a fine position to perceive the present situation with clarity. If it appears hopeless and doomed, as it well might, now is a good time to exit.

I guess my feeling about him was that he'd given up on the hope of good emotional connection and was really looking for escapism through sex. But I couldn't tell, maybe sex is the start of connection. I guess I didn't feel trust so I chose not to go there.

 

[oceangirl]

Oh my goodness Lodestar I had the exact same thing happen to me....I could never understand it. I realised eventually though it had nothing to do with me personally but it's exactly as your quote from Wing says. There are many men who can't cope at all just being on their own and are looking for the comfort of a motherly type woman who'll just make it all about the man. The sex part gives them very short term release of their demons they want the comfort from. Plus have you heard of the newish term Ghosting!

 

[Lodestar]

Thanks for your feedback Oceangirl.You are right it's not about me. I so wish I could feel that way though!

I guess if I enjoy the attention of his attraction to me, I'm simply going to feel the loss of it when it's gone!
The depth of upset around that loss is nothing to do with him, but all to do with my self esteem/lack of..
He was doing all the running and I was trying to slow it down. Demons and comfort.. there's definitely something in that.

Yup have heard of ghosting and I think it's the lowest of the low, it's become more widespread as people interact with people they won't bump into again, so even common courtesy disappears.
People depress me, the callousness. But it all comes around.. Still, he was far from being a bad person.
I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with my hurt feelings.

How have I grown, what have I learnt from this experience?
46.4-32

 

[Lodestar]

46.4 Hilary

So… I believe 46.4 marks a time when your personal desires and aspirations are not being rewarded. The message is that this is not a mistake – on the contrary! And so the optimal response is not to want it more and pursue it more avidly, but to set it in context by redirecting your attention: away from the object of your desire, back towards your roots, towards what is permanent and real. Then you have the foundation for a more real, more connected progress: good fortune, no mistake.

 

[oceangirl]

The hurt feelings can be tricky that's for sure so Line 4 is about listening to authority in this case your mindset. It's about learning to move forward from these types of men - it truly is their issues that lead them to behave as they do - not yours. Once I leatned that and turned the situation on it's head the more confident I became. Not to put them down but by being hurt by their behaviour means you're 'buying'into their issues. So unless you push upwards things will remain consistently the same everytime you meet a new man.

 

[diamanda]

"He was far from being a bad person", well, 'bad' is a bit of a vague word. His behaviour is certainly passive-aggressive, passively hurtful to others. Imo this behaviour is just as bad as someone coming up and slapping you - emotional violence hurts as much as physical. What would it have cost him to reply a simple 'happy christmas' to you?

How have I grown, what have I learnt from this experience?
46.4 > 32
The way it sounds to me, the lesson is that someone who is a 'king' and is after constancy would offer you a 'mountain' (a complete contrast to such a petty person, who can't even offer a tiny polite standard wish). Or maybe the 'king' here is Santa, who offers you a lovely big present, and then you don't care anymore about this guy's rudeness..?

Happy xmas Lodestar, Oceangirl, and everyone else! May Santa be super nice to you

 

[oceangirl]

Thankyou diamanda you too! So far it's been lovely

 

[Freedda]

Hello Lodestar. I am fairly new at this, so please free to take my advice with a grain of salt - of not take it at all - if you want.

That said, I wonder if there is another question you could ask here that would be more helpful? As it is, you are asking about another's actions and intentions, which seems to me dicey terrain - especially when overlain with our own feelings and desires, which is usually the case in matters of the heart.

So for example, do you think it could be useful to ask: Why do I feel this way? Or, what can I learn from this? Or, what is the best way to get past this, to move forward? (There are others you could consider, I think.)

I find asking a more 'self-directed' question useful and empowering because it leads me to something I can use, or reflect or act on. Whereas, when I ask about someone else's actions, feelings or thoughts -- while I might get a response -- I am often left with an empty 'so what?' sort of feeling - as if my question was never really answered.

Kind regards, David.

 

[Lodestar]

Thanks Oceangirl, absolutely, buying in is just what I was doing. I've managed to disentangle now.

Hi Diamanda, thanks so much for your feedback.. I think what I'm doing when I say he wasn't 'bad' is actually just trying to make myself feel better!! If you feel like all you deserve is to be treated badly, the only way to turn that on its head is to pretend the person 'didn't mean it'. But I'm sure he did mean it!! The good thing is, I seem to have a better baseline of confidence now and I'm pulling through
I will let you know if my King turns up to deliver me my mountain!!
The best thing is I'm fine now, this would have floored me for months in the past, not this time..

Hi David, thanks for your reply! think you must have missed my post, that's exactly what I already asked , asked how I have grown, what have I learnt. Ah maybe you meant my original question..Yes maybe I could ask a more forward directed question like, how can I attract what I need in love?
56.3-35 oh God that's completely confused me now!

When a dangerous task has to be accomplished, it is better to burn one’s ships. Fear is strong, but without a refuge it is easier to cope with. When troops start marching to the war, they remove their camp, so the decision is definite. I'll choose LiSe as all the other interpretations are so negative! All about being arrogant - and my problem is a surfeit of humility.
- March into new encounters and don't look over my shoulder?


Good tidings to all, and thank you for giving your time to my query. Greatly appreciated

 

[deflatormouse]

I wonder if there is another question you could ask here that would be more helpful? As it is, you are asking about another's actions and intentions . . .I find asking a more 'self-directed' question useful and empowering because it leads me to something I can use, or reflect or act on. Whereas, when I ask about someone else's actions, feelings or thoughts -- while I might get a response -- I am often left with an empty 'so what?' sort of feeling - as if my question was never really answered.

There has been a lot of stuff on question-finding posted on the forum in the last few days to a week. I have felt for a while that there ought to be a thread or sub-forum specificially for "this is my situation, what question should I ask the Yijing" stuff, which can be half the battle.

A lot of the very best materials written on this subject seem to encourage us to ask increasingly open-ended and introspective questions; I too have a personal preference for these kinds of readings very often and they would account for perhaps a majority of my most revelatory divinations. However, in my experience, there has been a major limitation to this kind of questioning: if divination is most successful when we free-associate aginst a very vague text to preferably open-ended and introspective questions, this requires either full suspension of disblief in divine intervention, or satisfaction in talking to a book/oneself. In other words, I feel it encourages skepticism. This is not necessarily problematic depending on one's individual beliefs and preferences, but it is certainly a limitation.

For me the most useful criteria for evaluating a question concerns whether or not it addresses what it is that the querent actually wants to know, or requires further unpacking. I feel that the querent is often the best judge of this and do not see anyone tying themselves into knots here.

If you have ethical concerns over the use of divination for eavesdropping on others, I would regard this as a personal ethic or preference that has little to do with good divination practice.

 

[diamanda]

how can I attract what I need in love? 56.3 > 35
(...) All about being arrogant - and my problem is a surfeit of humility.
- March into new encounters and don't look over my shoulder?

The line says that the traveller (or trooper) burns his inn/camp, and mourns the death of his little servant, an omen of danger. The burning of the inn/camp sounds like a voluntary action, the loss of the servant sounds like an accidental loss, a bit like the expression of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". The answer describes the violent end of something temporary (56.3) and a very fast/multiple progress after that (35) - it describes very energetic action on your part. So I'd say in order to get what you want in love, go for it full force, date as many men as possible, at the slightest sign that they're 'temporary' discard them (even if it makes you feel sad) and continue searching with vigour.

 

[Freedda]

There has been a lot of stuff on question-finding posted on the forum in the last few days to a week. I have felt for a while that there ought to be a thread or sub-forum specificially for ... what question should I ask the Yijing" stuff, which can be half the battle.

A lot of the very best materials written on this subject seem to encourage us to ask increasingly open-ended and introspective questions; I too have a personal preference for these kinds of readings ... However, in my experience, there has been a major limitation to this kind of questioning ...

For me the most useful criteria for evaluating a question concerns whether or not it addresses what it is that the querent actually wants to know, or requires further unpacking. I feel that the querent is often the best judge of this and do not see anyone tying themselves into knots here.

If you have ethical concerns over the use of divination for eavesdropping on others ....

deflatormouse

Thanks for your comments.

As you've said, the topics of how to ask questions and what makes for a clear question has been much discussed here. Hilary said she will be offering a course on doing readings for others this coming year, and I suspect that will be one of the topics.

As to my post, I was not suggesting that the question(s) should be more open or vague, or that I have an issue with eavesdropping. I was suggesting instead that maybe questions which are what I call 'self-directed' might lead to a clearer response or reading.

By 'self-directed' I mean questions that are about our intentions, feelings and actions: 'what should I do ... ' or 'what action should I take ...' or 'why do I feel this way ....' As opposed to asking about others intentions and actions: 'why did they do that ..., or 'what should they do.'

I offer this because usually we don't directly control other's feelings, thoughts, and actions, but we can often address our own.

As the reader (interpreter) of another's reading I would imagine that how much we direct or nudge someone towards how they as their question - versus letting them ask it as they want - might be a matter of style and temperment.

Again, that is my beginner's mind speaking, and I'm certainly open to changing as my understanding of the I Ching -- and my relation with it -- grows.

Regards, David.

 

[oceangirl]

Are you a beginner David, as you've stated? For a lot of us on this forum we've been using the Yi for a number of years now and we've learnt what questioning works for us and from what I can see you are putting comments on many people's post about the way they question the Yi. Perhaps you could start a thread yourself in Open Space and if anyone is looking for the way to question they could read it.

 

[Freedda]

Are you a beginner David, as you've stated? For a lot of us on this forum we've been using the Yi for a number of years now and we've learnt what questioning works for us and from what I can see you are putting comments on many people's post about the way they question the Yi. Perhaps you could start a thread yourself in Open Space and if anyone is looking for the way to question they could read it.

Hello oceangirl

You are correct that I am new to this forum and somewhat new to the I Ching.

I thought my posts were in keeping with the forum's description - '... asking for help with interpretation' and were offered in that light. I meant no ill will, nor did i know that comments about the formation/nature of questions was off limits.

At this point, I will wait for Hilary's offering related to reading for other people and continue the discussion there.

David.

 

[deflatormouse]

I thought my posts were in keeping with the forum's description - '... asking for help with interpretation' and were offered in that light. I meant no ill will, nor did i know that comments about the formation/nature of questions was off limits.

It isn't off-limits by any means, but whose advice is it? The question I would ask you is, does the 34.1.6>62 reading somehow suggest to you that this question was inappropriate?
I think the interpreteive assistance most people are seeking here is with the Yijing's advice specifically, and although interpretation is a highly subjective and personal thing, there is a sense that your analysis in these cases is entirely disconnected from the readings, that you may have written something similar here regardlesss whether the reading had been 9 unchanging or 7.2.6>23.
Personal advice that is not Yijing based may be appreciated by others or not on an individual and case-by-case basis. It isn't off limits although in some contexts it has been discouraged.

(Edit: hadn't seen your earlier post #12 when I wrote this, what you are referring to as 'self-directed' is similar to what I meant by 'introspective' - this has its advantages and limitations IMO, I find it a very rewarding approach more often than not but it is not the only useful or valid approach, anyhow this is something many of us could write a dissertation on and I do not wish to redirect the thread in that direction.)

 

[deflatormouse]

I am sorry to Lodestar for my part in derailing the topic of this thread, and so would like to help refocus it on the initial reading. I rarely comment on others' readings out of fear of misleading them if I'm wrong. As David said of his own suggestion, please take all of the following with a grain of salt, especially if it doesn't resonate but even if it does (I would hope this goes for anyone's input, beginner or no).

This reading is very heavily populated by birds.

Liu Ming translates the title of hexagram 36, understood by some 'modernist' translators as "pheasant" to mean "No reply" because, he says, "In an early form of birdsong divination, the voice of the pheasant meant "no response" or "do not respond." This is actually a somehwat dubious claim, and far from a historical certainty (see the thread I started in Exploring Divination on bird omens if you're curious). And it's far from a literal translation, actually, it's more interpretation than translation. Nevertheless, I find it a very useful association to work with, particularly in the context of a reading about "why hasn't someone responded to me".

62 judgement, of course, also gives the image of a bird-as-messenger, delivering a note. So one way to interpret '36 zhi 62', I feel, would be "No reply to the message". It's an extremely direct response to the question asked, IMO, and I would think that like any reading, it can be read effectively from a number of different perspectives, including one of introspection (but because of the directness that I see, I feel the concerns over this query were especially unwarranted).

Furthermore, the line text of 36.4 seems, I think, to encourage eavesdropping. And since the title characters in their relationship form a headline of 'No response to the message' in my view, I would expect the line texts to detail the reasons why. I feel it encourages you to find out more about his motivations for not responding before jumping to the conclusion that you have been ghosted. And on the flipside, reversing the roles and reverting to "brightness hidden" for ming yi, I think he may be suspicious of your own motivations and jumping to conclusions himself. It may be worthwhile to clarify to him what your intentions are here.

In 36.1, if ming yi is understood as a "pheasant" rather than "brightness hidden", it suggests that the bird is on the wing, as in the judgement of 62. I feel this is indicative of a departure, something in transit. I'm especially uncertain about this idea, but: could it be that he's simply out of town or something? (Edit: I had meant to say, could also be he is injured or sick, an idea reinforced by the drooping wing in line 1 and the operating-table-esque image of line 4. But most plausibly IMO, he might hurt you and it's simply time to move on.)

Best of luck.